Curse

vinoth · Feb 28, 2011, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Skill
A build that requires more thought than repeatedly smashing your face into the keyboard.

According to ur definition. Invoke spike/ rspike / spike builds are skilled than pressure builds. Perhaps all the pressure build ppl should uninstall the game to make players such as urself happy.

Wait - you will be the only one in HA making team lf r13 + warrior who can play without mashing his face into the keyboard.

Its a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing game. everyone will "roll their face" on the keyboard. Its what their toon does in game that counts.

*lemming* · Feb 28, 2011, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Stop playing devil's advocate. I'm sure that you have a pretty reasonable idea of what the ideal of skill in GW refers to.

Fate Crusher · Mar 01, 2011, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

According to ur definition.

everyone will "roll their face" on the keyboard. Its what their toon does in game that counts.

Shot yourself in the foot there. What your toon does effectively is directly related to the player's skill. Skill involves using your positioning and build in order to reach the current objective, either by killing or by other means, ie interrupting the ghost.
Perfect example are the ranger and Mesmer bars (PD and PB. Not the stupid E-Surge fags). However, PD has become a joke lately, you just camp weapons and shame/divert monks. wow.

Anyways, The gimmicks nowadays have no seriously challenging bars. 2 Migraine mesmers, 2 dervs and an MB ele, plus backline, will roll your balanced team. 2 wota sins, 2 esurge mesmers, 2 eles plus monks will farm quite a few maps for you. 3 BBway warriors and 5-man backline will surprisingly win quite a lot.

tbh, i think it's gimmick hate that has forced a lot of players to finally stop playing HA in these last 6-9 months (since mesmers got buffed and began facerolling). BBway, i don't mind because there's only 2 guilds that make you all look like fools. Problem is, despite the gimmick hate, they provide great chances for lower ranked players to start and form teams.

So Anet, I'd just like to see more thought go into builds and free up gamebreaking skills, as mentioned already plays a significant impact on what you can and can't bring (SoC, MH, strips). But really, it can't be fixed by this, simply because there are just so many skills now. If MH is removed from the game, you will probably see Dark Escape or Dash become a prerequisite (Or even Charge! lol).

Meh, this can go on forever.

some guy · Mar 01, 2011, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

Shot yourself in the foot there. What your toon does effectively is directly related to the player's skill. Skill involves using your positioning and build in order to reach the current objective, either by killing or by other means, ie interrupting the ghost.
Perfect example are the ranger and Mesmer bars (PD and PB. Not the stupid E-Surge fags). However, PD has become a joke lately, you just camp weapons and shame/divert monks. wow.

Anyways, The gimmicks nowadays have no seriously challenging bars. 2 Migraine mesmers, 2 dervs and an MB ele, plus backline, will roll your balanced team. 2 wota sins, 2 esurge mesmers, 2 eles plus monks will farm quite a few maps for you. 3 BBway warriors and 5-man backline will surprisingly win quite a lot.

tbh, i think it's gimmick hate that has forced a lot of players to finally stop playing HA in these last 6-9 months (since mesmers got buffed and began facerolling). BBway, i don't mind because there's only 2 guilds that make you all look like fools. Problem is, despite the gimmick hate, they provide great chances for lower ranked players to start and form teams.

So Anet, I'd just like to see more thought go into builds and free up gamebreaking skills, as mentioned already plays a significant impact on what you can and can't bring (SoC, MH, strips). But really, it can't be fixed by this, simply because there are just so many skills now. If MH is removed from the game, you will probably see Dark Escape or Dash become a prerequisite (Or even Charge! lol).

Meh, this can go on forever.

You mean facetrolling!

With esurge + mindRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO a shit mesmer can be good

Killed u man · Mar 01, 2011, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Stop playing devil's advocate. I'm sure that you have a pretty reasonable idea of what the ideal of skill in GW refers to.

Actually, I think Vinoth was one of those people defending IWAY and saying that IWAY warriors required skill to play. (As opposed to warriors which have to choose between IMS and IAS AND have to coordinate a team)

Don't give these people too much credit Lemming. I even recalled someone from eB arguing hexway was one of the hardest builds to run in HA, aswell as german kids defending bspam.

People 2011 completely lost touch with the ideal balance ratio. For them, any build they run is balanced, and any build they loose against is overpowered.

Missing HB · Mar 01, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

Can you specifically define skill? quoting examples from the various professions?

I'm pretty sure you see people real skills at the results they got in HB or at how they can manage a team in GvG. I can quote a ton of players which were good at HB and thus got good at GvG although they never played it a lot before ( sauron , fretty, wanbe , scykron, no chance , etc...).Playing there gave them a nice field watch vision and thus could match( or even do better )with people like Lemming or others who knew how to do these because they started by GvG....

Those players do good everytime they go HA. Why? Because they're more competent than HA players, especially when it concerns hall map. ( there are some flaws in hall map ok , but that's an other problem...)

About quoting examples , i will just let you compare leading a balanced team on shrines vs leading a 5 grenth dervish team on the same map. If you want more , i will also let you interest yourself to how efficient spamming random rupts on prot ( i.E rupting LS 90% of time) is vs waiting and watching carefully...

vinoth · Mar 01, 2011, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

any build they run is balanced, and any build they loose against is overpowered.

Firstly you are talking out of your ass as I am not defending any build. And 2ndly, I never said a build is overpowered when you lose to it. You are typically the one who speaks of such things. I have always said, look at your own team when you lose.

Some builds are more powerful than others, while comparing average teams. ex balance vs bbway. or Stabilty + blind teams vs bbway. Medicore teams think about buildwars while the meta changes. Good teams adapt with their original build as the meta changes.

A persons ability is governed by limiting factors :

1. Type of FPS he has.
2. Type of ping he has.
3. Type of players he LIKES to play with. Some people like to play with people who speak the same language regardless of how bad their friends are. (French speakers mainly)
4. Type of proffession he has experience with.
5. Experience on maps + game
6. Raw brains to pick up things and apply. (lots of 5 compensates for this)

You cant just be arrogant if the person does not have 4 and 5.
People who play rits or prisms usually have a problem with 1 and 2.
godly Mesmers need very good 1-6.
godly wars need 1-6.
godly anything needs a lot of 1-6. regardless of your build.

Very good teams tend to have 6 or 7 people with lots of 1-6. They, regardless of the opposition will win most of their games. Be it hexway, balance, iway, randomway.

As someone rightly pointed out. you dont build people around builds but you build a build around peoples ability. No point if you want to run a typical balance if you have no mesmer. You dont want to put your standard war on mes, because he will lack no 5.

There are lots of guys in the game who have no 1,2,3,4,6. Teach them no 5.

With regards to positioning. HA encourages monks who have no positioning.

People tend to play good in builds they play often. Thus balance guys cant spike as well as a spike guys team and vice versa. It does not mean one set is better off than anyway. Take a look at unb for example. I once saw them balance and it was in shambles. When they r-spike, its a different story. Everyone knows what to do and they can modify their play to various situations.

Compare the best mesmer vs say the best bbwar. Mesmers dont kill, they assist + shutdown. If the best mesmer was to support a warrior, they will be much more devastating than a bbwar. Tbf, most bbwars i see in the game suck. Few are there who do a brilliant job out of it. Just as many good bbwars as a good mesmer. Problem is when all these good bbwars are in 1 team, they are more potent than all the good mesmers in 1 team.

Its surprising you bring the correlation between shock axe and Iway war. Id like to point it out to you, that its very very hard to kill as an iway war with your other three iway wars to support. It is miles easier to kill with an shock axe with a mesmer and fre ele behind your tail. Ive seen numerous wars in the game, but only handful know how to play an axe war effciently. Shame that most of them I know play in the GvG domain.

Although I think the most important ability to be good in this game, is to take criticism positvely and behing honest about what you can play. What pisses me off most is a r12 telling me he can play ranger and having no clue about it. If you have bad ping/fps - stick to easier builds within the team.

Things about positioning and ability to change tactics is universal regardless of the build. I think people should change the notion of skill in this game. Its all relative and subjective. Its not something people should get arrogant over.

For the record I have played most kinds of builds. I sometimes speak to good players (people with excessive 1-6, have 80k + fame and are not biased. They agree with me.

vinoth · Mar 01, 2011, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I'm pretty sure you see people real skills at the results they got in HB or at how they can manage a team in GvG. I can quote a ton of players which were good at HB and thus got good at GvG although they never played it a lot before ( sauron , fretty, wanbe , scykron, no chance , etc...).Playing there gave them a nice field watch vision and thus could match( or even do better )with people like Lemming or others who knew how to do these because they started by GvG....

Those players do good everytime they go HA. Why? Because they're more competent than HA players, especially when it concerns hall map. ( there are some flaws in hall map ok , but that's an other problem...)

About quoting examples , i will just let you compare leading a balanced team on shrines vs leading a 5 grenth dervish team on the same map. If you want more , i will also let you interest yourself to how efficient spamming random rupts on prot ( i.E rupting LS 90% of time) is vs waiting and watching carefully...

If you have really judged your build against odds and there is absolutely no way you can win against 5 dervs, then change ur build. Perhaps take ranger top, so u can snare the dervishes and send axe down to block ghost?

urania · Mar 01, 2011, 10:16 PM // 22:16

rangering is far more than just good ping/fps.

what you're missing is that a balanced build has (or ought to have, at least) enough means to deal with virtually any situation given because it includes (or ought to, at least) things that can deal with (m)any situation(s). skills such as gale, bo, diversion, d shot are just a few examples of very versatile skills that can be deadly in hands of a good player and completely useless in hands of a wanna-be. in a nutshell, the better the team (so using your words, the more 1-6 players a team has) the lesser the need to spec a build, because (in theory) they have the means to shut down things that need to be shut down in order to push kills or prevent deaths.

but when that no longer applies (and it hasnt applied in a long long time now), thats when you start spec wars, where your 1-6 doesnt matter as much anymore, because you need 0 to be effective enough.

so yes, some builds, some skills and some balance decisions ARE and have been overpowered and broken and just plain bad for years (and the derv just brought things to the next level). but they have been bad (only?) for quality play experience. if you just want your few points of fame, glad or champ points, you don't care anyway. or do you?

Reverend Dr · Mar 02, 2011, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I think this is linked to the easier access. You know in these kind of games , deathmatches or whatever , anyone can enter anywhere at anytime and make his "team" win alone. In " fantasy games " , i.e "team-must games" , it's bit harder because you need to handle your team , develop tactic , trust your teammates , have time to play , etc....
In other words , others are more popular because they involve less dedication...( and it's quite right in GW , now the game especially in PvP show you don't need especially any skill to win)

Uh what? Every team in FPS that bother to coordinate and work together [as a team] have absolutely curbstomped an unorganized opponent. There really is no reason a fantasy game can't have that exact type of deathmatch game other than the devs not putting one in.

I still see no reason why pvp/pve focus has to be separated by the genre line.

Krill · Mar 02, 2011, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Uh what? Every team in FPS that bother to coordinate and work together [as a team] have absolutely curbstomped an unorganized opponent. There really is no reason a fantasy game can't have that exact type of deathmatch game other than the devs not putting one in.

He must have been referring to pubs (public servers for those that don't know). Launch Battlefield, Call of Duty, whatever and in less than a minute you're playing. GW already does have that type of play with RA and CM's.

HA has always been in a weird position where many of the "real" competitive players, i.e. GvG think think it's a joke yet the casual crowd finds it has too many barriers. It's obvious that anet left heroes and shit builds like iway and sway in tact for long in the hopes of keeping unranked pugging alive but that hasn't helped at all either.

Actatar · Mar 02, 2011, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

It's obvious that anet left heroes and shit builds like iway and sway in tact for long in the hopes of keeping unranked pugging alive but that hasn't helped at all either.

I'd actually say they probably don't pay much attention to HA. After the change back from 6 to 8 man, I feel like they gave up lol

Missing HB · Mar 02, 2011, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

He must have been referring to pubs (public servers for those that don't know). Launch Battlefield, Call of Duty, whatever and in less than a minute you're playing. GW already does have that type of play with RA and CM's.

Exactly. There is competition in those games too , but you're still able to practice very easily. I just launch the game , find some servor and that's it. Plus usually , you can test out stuff and the rest isn't caring....

If we try to apply this to GW , well... there isn't anything to be honest...Only places you could effectively test out stuff are JQ and FA , and to a more competitive environment HB. I'd rather test out builds by myself to then see if it would work than wasting 2 hours in HA to find players that would like to play the build to then disband after any lose....

What i mean is that you need to coordinate and work as team for sure in FPS games too , but you also need to BE ABLE to learn basics and to practice somewhere.....It used to be possible , but it's not anymore

Teh Nox · Mar 02, 2011, 11:12 PM // 23:12

Ha is imbalanced - but that makes it fun

Oo Dany Oo · Mar 03, 2011, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teh Nox

Ha is imbalanced - but that makes it fun

/correction

Ha is Grenthway(epic brainless way) - and it's not fun play skilled team when a r3+ grenthway can defeat your team in 2 mins of random rpessure.

I think that HA died with this new derv update. More skilled players are bored of this epic OverPowered dervs. And no skillz are required to play that.

Reverend Dr · Mar 04, 2011, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

He must have been referring to pubs (public servers for those that don't know). Launch Battlefield, Call of Duty, whatever and in less than a minute you're playing. GW already does have that type of play with RA and CM's.

HA has always been in a weird position where many of the "real" competitive players, i.e. GvG think think it's a joke yet the casual crowd finds it has too many barriers. It's obvious that anet left heroes and shit builds like iway and sway in tact for long in the hopes of keeping unranked pugging alive but that hasn't helped at all either.

I know exactly to what he was referring. My point is that there is no reason why these distinctions must be made on the genre line.

RA doesn't work well for this type of play. FA/JQ work better, but its all about the team size. Typical FPS servers have 12-16 or hacked server for 24 or more players on each team. This way new players are only 1/12, 1/16, 1/24 of the team and poor ability (typical of new players) can easily be covered up by the rest of the team. Just not really the case in RA where a player is 1/4 the team.

But the original AB from Factions beta did this so much better. While one could enter in teams of up to 4 people, you could enter with less or even just by yourself. The original version of AB was far better in this regard.

Any lack of accessibility is the fault of game design, not a fault of genre.

EDIT: As an aside, why does everyone keep bringing up IWAY? In the last two years only a handful of people even run it anymore. The only time I see IWAY is when I play IWAY.

placetoguru · Mar 04, 2011, 06:48 AM // 06:48

wow, really everyone think this derv crap has destroyed HA even more
its really not that hard to beat them, and if everyone is running it then we smart and use it to your advantage. aka BUILD WARS THEM run some hexes and blind and its gg, also cuz its 5-6 melee they tend to ball nicely as well. now i am the original poster and from reading this forum i think we can all come to the conclusion that HA is not balanced. but that doesn't mean we should all give up based on what everyone is running. the derv update is a big step forward to guild wars in general with the introduction to flash enchantments. ofc after any update some skills might need some tweaking, but with that said big skill and class changes make a big difference to what people run in places like HA and GVG.

so all in all i think its important that the guild wars community embrace these kinds of updates and support A-Nets work, so in the future they might actually want to keep mixing the game up. I strongly believe that we need more of these updates for every class although keeping in mind of gerneral team tactics and game types eg. dont RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up common snares/hast bars or standard monk bars, although alternatives are good.

*lemming* · Mar 04, 2011, 08:49 AM // 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by placetoguru

so all in all i think its important that the guild wars community embrace these kinds of updates and support A-Nets work, so in the future they might actually want to keep mixing the game up. I strongly believe that we need more of these updates for every class although keeping in mind of gerneral team tactics and game types eg. dont RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up common snares/hast bars or standard monk bars, although alternatives are good.

You're kidding, right?

Missing HB · Mar 04, 2011, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by placetoguru

so all in all i think its important that the guild wars community embrace these kinds of updates and support A-Nets work, so in the future they might actually want to keep mixing the game up.

How can i support a game where nothing is done about PvP ?? Just look at this " big update " . Being able to use 7 heroes in PvE and not in PvP is already enough a big joke , but embark bay not leading to PvP is an even bigger one. You know, it would probably have helped to form teams eventually for codex or even GvG there.....

placetoguru · Mar 04, 2011, 09:30 AM // 09:30

i hope u realize that pvp players in guild wars are a big minority compared to the pve player base and a-net has to give them something. all though i agree that the embark outpost isn't a great idea and it should have some better link to forming teams for ha/gvg. but also please look back at why we started this thread because this has turned into a 'bitch about how bad gw is' and that initial aims were to create some kind of GVG commentary player event to push new players to HA