Curse

*lemming* · Feb 17, 2011, 09:20 AM // 09:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

What was incorrect about what I said.
GW PvP as a whole isn't the type of PvP that has mass appeal.

Can you provide an example that does?

Missing HB · Feb 17, 2011, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by diabiosx

game is 6years old bullshit is not a legit reason for inactivity, im sure alot of people can name a whole shit ton of games that people still play and is well over 10years old
MVC2 theres still tournaments for it and its 10years old
CS1.5 people still play that shit and its over 10years old

The point is that most of those games aren't much "team-based" and thus can't suffer from inactivity. In addition , you can make your team win alone usually ( or even if half team is failing , you can still win)....

That's not at all the case for GW : we already discused a lot about inactivity , but having 1 failer in your team can make you lose... More over , sometimes you can't decide of the win due to luck factors( i.e RA , HA)...

GW isn't really made to handle future situations. Looking at actual situation concerning whole PvP ( all " team-based" modes), it makes no doubt about the future and when GW2 will be released.

infi · Feb 17, 2011, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

The point is that most of those games aren't much "team-based" and thus can't suffer from inactivity. In addition , you can make your team win alone usually ( or even if half team is failing , you can still win)....

That's not at all the case for GW : we already discused a lot about inactivity , but having 1 failer in your team can make you lose... More over , sometimes you can't decide of the win due to luck factors( i.e RA , HA)...

GW isn't really made to handle future situations. Looking at actual situation concerning whole PvP ( all " team-based" modes), it makes no doubt about the future and when GW2 will be released.

The DoTA, CS arn't team based? It is absolutely the same as in the guild wars. One person can make you win but, at the same time, this person can lead your team to the loss.

Killed u man · Feb 17, 2011, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Having to rely on teammates definatly isn't the reason why GW is inactive.

But wait, didn't we all agree like 4 years ago that changing HA from 8v8 KoTH => 6v6 was a bad idea? Dind't alot of people leave at that very mark? (Let me save you the trouble, yes, alot of people left around that time)

Or all the Kill Count, Cap Points and Relic Run shennanigans. Dind't a mass amount of people leave in the consecutive weeks? Again, let me save you some thinking, yes there did.

And ever since that time, haven't people been leaving non stop? Watching the HA district mark get reduced from 6-5-4 to 3 at prime time today, and 1/4 of a district for atleast 8 hours a day?

The PvE mentality, the bad balance (affected intire PvP including GvG) and the bad formt descissions made is what killed HA.

Krill · Feb 17, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

CS, Quake 3, UT99, SC2, DotA, etc. are all games that are fundamentally sound for competition. As such, like traditional games (e.g. chess, bridge) they will never get old for many people.

I think we can all agree that HA is not fundamentally sound and in all honestly never was. This gilded age Borat is always blabbing about where everyone was good and lame fotm builds were the minority NEVER EXISTED.

Missing HB · Feb 17, 2011, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Having to rely on teammates definatly isn't the reason why GW is inactive.

But wait, didn't we all agree like 4 years ago that changing HA from 8v8 KoTH => 6v6 was a bad idea? Dind't alot of people leave at that very mark? (Let me save you the trouble, yes, alot of people left around that time)

Or all the Kill Count, Cap Points and Relic Run shennanigans. Dind't a mass amount of people leave in the consecutive weeks? Again, let me save you some thinking, yes there did.

And ever since that time, haven't people been leaving non stop? Watching the HA district mark get reduced from 6-5-4 to 3 at prime time today, and 1/4 of a district for atleast 8 hours a day?

The PvE mentality, the bad balance (affected intire PvP including GvG) and the bad formt descissions made is what killed HA.

Yes , but that's not what i really intended to say... Whole point is that you at least need 12 players in order to get 1 fight in HA , thus i let you imagine how many are needed to make the format at least playable....

I'm not saying that being team-based is based , but it actually is if nothing else( new content , skill updates , ...) is done ( and thus 3/4 of players are leaving)... Most games i mentionned can be played 1v1 ( 2v2 eventually ) btw...

Killed u man · Feb 17, 2011, 06:49 PM // 18:49

True, but how long will you play a game if you have to face the same person over and over again?

The fact that you need atleast 12 people doesn't matter, because if you needed atleast 2 people, you'dd still be facing the same people.

It's not the team size that decides how long a game will stay active, it's the play and replayability. For shooters and RTS, this is naturally really high. For a MMO, it comes from high end PvE (which is almost non existent in GW) and good PvP (which is exctly what got ruined)

ensoriki · Feb 17, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Can you provide an example that does?

That does have mass appeal?
In the mmorpg market the players of mmorpgs come in for pve primarily from that standpoint the bulk of their audience does not pvp.
Perhaps it's unfair to label GW from something that affects most mmorpg's where the market of one side is greater than the other but I said it anyways.

If you look at other genres of games, the draw is the pvp, and the playerbase knows that. CoD series, the various fighter series, Even when chess players face computers they still think of facing people. Essentially GW pvp does not appeal to the majority of it's members, perhaps that could've been worded better before on my part.

Pick up and play is a key thing to success with the player base, well that and obviously the game being fun. Perhaps it doesn't strike that maybe most people don't find HA fun, and then those who may find it fun don't get the chance sometimes because they won't pursue getting in themselves, but getting into the game shouldn't be a chore to begin with.

That being said not to be completely one sided.
Part of it is also that people like to move on to "new things" and even games with long pvp histories have had players shuffle through, as the older players get tired of performing the same things. Some of these games manage by adding new modes of play. GW did this with Hero battles and codex arena but...

Cleansing · Feb 18, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Let me give a brief background to myself first.

I'm R3 and only got it recently. I have been playing a lot of HA recently. Most of you probably don't know who I am. High rankers have been kind enough to give me a go and apparently they find me decent enough to keep me in their team over and over again. I like to play midline Ranger, Elementalist or Mesmer. Right now though I'm learning the basics to Monk backline in RA, as well as practicing midline in GvG.

I don't think it
The overall problem isn't HA dying. It is the population of GW reducing and hence PvP overall is going downhill. This is because this game is old and people find other games appealing (such as WoW). This in turn is killing off HA players.

This leaves us with the issue of people who mainly play PvE. There is very little way for people who have not played HA before to learn HA because people rank discriminate too much. (There is also an issue with no/low rankers joining high ranked teams and getting kicked after they fail). ArenaNet needs to introduce a way for these people who haven't tried HA before to learn HA such as implementing matches which provide some reward (such as Balthazar faction under the same faction cap with Zaishen Challenge/Elite or external to it of 5k). Sure this may lead to a little farming but it may introduce new players to HA.

I know plenty of people who would give HA a try but they cannot due to people rejecting them or groups not forming due to small amounts of players. I do not blame rank discrimination entirely but it is certainly a factor which isn't helping and is discouraging HA growth.

I don't think builds are an issue. I think its the skill required to use those builds and the tactics of HA involved which usually give a win. At least now ArenaNet are working to fix it (such as the Mesmer and the recent Dervish update). ArenaNet are doing a good job in balancing these builds. People assume if they get owned by a gimmick build they think its overpowered but they aren't. Gimmick builds are builds which work on a way that such people don't know what to do when they encounter them (element of surprise seems to be an advantage when teams not familiar with them don't know what to do). All of these gimmick builds have weaknesses just like meta team builds.

I would also suggest ArenaNet changes the hench limit to 3 so teams of 5 can go rather than 6.

Also the community in HA seem more aggressive and use insults. Please reduce your insults so people aren't discouraged from playing HA. It's a win-win since you get more games in your fame run.

infi · Feb 18, 2011, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

That does have mass appeal?
In the mmorpg market the players of mmorpgs come in for pve primarily from that standpoint the bulk of their audience does not pvp.
Perhaps it's unfair to label GW from something that affects most mmorpg's where the market of one side is greater than the other but I said it anyways.

If you look at other genres of games, the draw is the pvp, and the playerbase knows that. CoD series, the various fighter series, Even when chess players face computers they still think of facing people. Essentially GW pvp does not appeal to the majority of it's members, perhaps that could've been worded better before on my part.

Pick up and play is a key thing to success with the player base, well that and obviously the game being fun. Perhaps it doesn't strike that maybe most people don't find HA fun, and then those who may find it fun don't get the chance sometimes because they won't pursue getting in themselves, but getting into the game shouldn't be a chore to begin with.

That being said not to be completely one sided.
Part of it is also that people like to move on to "new things" and even games with long pvp histories have had players shuffle through, as the older players get tired of performing the same things. Some of these games manage by adding new modes of play. GW did this with Hero battles and codex arena but...

offtopic

HA and GvG haven't made for casuals. Live with it. They are old-school n hardcore. I am also glad Arena won't make them as JQ and AB which arn't competitive at all.

This is my rant :P

Missing HB · Feb 18, 2011, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

offtopic

HA and GvG haven't made for casuals. Live with it. They are old-school n hardcore. I am also glad Arena won't make them as JQ and AB which arn't competitive at all.

This is my rant :P

GvG is , but HA isn't at all , there are too many flaws , especially concerning hall map....

But still then, we get back to the problem of removal of HB especially. I'm not talking about HB in itself , but about the tournaments that existed , which corresponded more to casual players...

I think there should be some kind of 1 on 1 tournaments again to bring some form of competitiveness for those players again...Maybe if they made some link with war in kryta stuff and implement an arena like :
- All fixed bars such as in costume brawl ( thus 1v1 will be fine)
- small arenas so that people can't run around
- people disguised as WiK heroes
- same system of tournament than in Hero Battles and same rewards
- no Quest associated
-

Cleansing · Feb 18, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by infi

offtopic

HA and GvG haven't made for casuals. Live with it. They are old-school n hardcore. I am also glad Arena won't make them as JQ and AB which arn't competitive at all.

This is my rant :P

They should make it appealing for casuals to try HA or GvG which they have with zaishen combat but not enough due to the fact of heavy rank discrimination or getting owned and raged at so they give up.

Champen · Feb 20, 2011, 01:37 PM // 13:37

The reason i personally lost interest in HA is because of the way Anet balanced the game.

Loooooooong time ago when people used warriros (with their main attributes, not daggers) you could see the difference between a good and a bad player, Anet kinda faded that away by forcing everyone to play 123 sins and now dervishes its boring as hell to play and to play against in my opinion.

Only the very oldschool people still play normal balanced and fail half of the time to these new builds that i dont like. Maybe its because the people playing balanced are plain bad or maybe its because the new builds are too strong i think its the latter but i can be wrong.

Anyways i lost interest in the game and i know many of my friends did too, how fun is it to see eB holding all day with bbway.

Missing HB · Feb 20, 2011, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Champen

The reason i personally lost interest in HA is because of the way Anet balanced the game.

Loooooooong time ago when people used warriros (with their main attributes, not daggers) you could see the difference between a good and a bad player, Anet kinda faded that away by forcing everyone to play 123 sins and now dervishes its boring as hell to play and to play against in my opinion.

Only the very oldschool people still play normal balanced and fail half of the time to these new builds that i dont like. Maybe its because the people playing balanced are plain bad or maybe its because the new builds are too strong i think its the latter but i can be wrong.

Anyways i lost interest in the game and i know many of my friends did too, how fun is it to see eB holding all day with bbway.

Agree with whole post , especially last paragraph. Thing is that the way they balanced things , people have no other choices than taking sure builds among the ton of skills we have. It leads to non-fun builds for now about 1 year : Bbway , classic balanced and wotas...
Playing anything else or trying to mod things usually lead to lose to at least 1 of the 3 builds....

However , concerning eB holding all day , this is concerning other problem. Some people choosed to dedicate themselves whole day to HA and thus , for example them , can win , lose or whatever , they don't care they instantly go in again. This lead to some consequences for some casuals like you or me , who get ganked in halls and then rage quit since we don't have hours....

That's quite a paradox but i think it's more fun to play hall on euro morning than euro evening( fun gets ruined by restarts tho...)

Reverend Dr · Feb 27, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

If you look at other genres of games, the draw is the pvp, and the playerbase knows that.

Why does it have to be limited by genre?

Is there some reason to which I am oblivious, because I don't see any inherent reason why it must be FPS = PvP and Fantasy = PvE.

Missing HB · Feb 28, 2011, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Why does it have to be limited by genre?

Is there some reason to which I am oblivious, because I don't see any inherent reason why it must be FPS = PvP and Fantasy = PvE.

I think this is linked to the easier access. You know in these kind of games , deathmatches or whatever , anyone can enter anywhere at anytime and make his "team" win alone. In " fantasy games " , i.e "team-must games" , it's bit harder because you need to handle your team , develop tactic , trust your teammates , have time to play , etc....
In other words , others are more popular because they involve less dedication...( and it's quite right in GW , now the game especially in PvP show you don't need especially any skill to win)

some guy · Feb 28, 2011, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Champen

The reason i personally lost interest in HA is because of the way Anet balanced the game.

Loooooooong time ago when people used warriros (with their main attributes, not daggers) you could see the difference between a good and a bad player, Anet kinda faded that away by forcing everyone to play 123 sins and now dervishes its boring as hell to play and to play against in my opinion.

Only the very oldschool people still play normal balanced and fail half of the time to these new builds that i dont like. Maybe its because the people playing balanced are plain bad or maybe its because the new builds are too strong i think its the latter but i can be wrong.

Anyways i lost interest in the game and i know many of my friends did too, how fun is it to see eB holding all day with bbway.

It's the latter, these new builds are just lol123123123123 i win, and these new builds are insanely overpowered just look at dervs right now. Balance went to shit ever since factions was released I think.

vinoth · Feb 28, 2011, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

now the game especially in PvP show you don't need especially any skill to win)

Can you specifically define skill? quoting examples from the various professions?

Infectious · Feb 28, 2011, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Skill
A build that requires more thought than repeatedly smashing your face into the keyboard.

Vincent Evan · Feb 28, 2011, 09:43 PM // 21:43

The three main pillars of why HA is in it's current state is 1: lack of true balance, 2: lack of a player base, 3: ANet's lack of incentive to fix HA in a earlier stage.

With the releases of Factions, Nightfall, and EotN, it can be easily said that either way, there has been an extreme power creep in Guild Wars. The expansions of skills brought more conveniences and much more game breaking skills. Back in Prophecies, there was no SoC or Fall Back. During 2005, the skill wasn't even conceived of yet. Players had no access to it which led to more constructive builds. But, when game changing skills such as FB or SoC come out, there demand for it just kept it there, making the game much more constrictive, allowing only linear gameplay. It's nearly impossible to spec someone in Halls without gimping your team to the point where you can't even pass the third map.

Basically as Lemming said, the fact that there is such a small group of HAers left, it demotivates lesser ranks to even play HA. If there were more people in the first place, at least there would be a much higher chance for people to play with others in their skill range. If there was such a scenario such as this, HA would thrive SIGNIFICANTLY LONGER. People will get better overtime if they can play with someone who is equally (or slightly higher) because they will see both their, and the opposing team's mistakes. But seeing we hardly have a player base, people just don't want to lose <1 minute in UW from a r12+ team.