Curse

placetoguru · Jan 29, 2011, 08:20 AM // 08:20

First off i know people have a lot of different opinions about the state of Guild Wars PVP. but from my perspective some thing BIG needs to be done, and not just from A-net.

Most of these discussions go down to Anet being at fault, and i'll agree in some ways. but today i want to put this out to the community because its us (me included) who abuse skill updates, abuse glitches and over powered skills just to gimmick our way for a few wins in Halls.

Now any HA player will know what i'm talking about, hey, the problem is documented on pvx wiki. new skill update = meta shift and new gimmick
so i'm putting it out to the community too see what we could together to fix the state of HA and PVP in general to both encourage a broader player base and maybe a way of balancing skills better in upcoming updates.

please only constructive inputs.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jan 29, 2011, 08:39 AM // 08:39

I know you said constructive input only, but this post is sort of constructive in that it will save you time.

HA has always been about gimmicks, this thread is five years too late. Anet can barely do pve skill balances, never mind a pvp metagame.

This has been beaten to death, I'd love to play balanced and not be gimped but Anet never listens.

Missing HB · Jan 29, 2011, 08:45 AM // 08:45

The problem is that , dead hours will remain forever dead , the same people will farm those and some guilds you probably know will still run bbway.

Not considering updates , we would need to start change people's behaviour , which will probably never happen , since those players i mentionned play the format for the reward and not for the fun.
What i mean is , sure some of us can decide to stop abusing stuff and etc , but can you make people who only play for the reward play a less good build? for sure not.....

The only way to make things change so is to get updates and to just NERF some skills that should have been for months now

beerelf · Jan 29, 2011, 10:33 AM // 10:33

I'd love to get into more PvP but thats just a dream (outside of JQ etc) codex arena, remember that, no neither do I.

Some parts of PvP are simply too elitist now and will never be in the reach of noobies like me.
Codex should be great fun but is just a ghost town. Simple fact is that we as players don't want balanced play, we just want to win.
PvP died sometime ago let it rest in peace.

placetoguru · Jan 29, 2011, 11:08 AM // 11:08

RIP to the best PVP gaming system of all time.
i still think anet could just nurf esurge, bsurge, invoke, bbway, sway, prisms, and all other gimick related builds.....oh yeah and setting sun. sia is a bad warrior

DeeKay · Jan 29, 2011, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerelf

I'd love to get into more PvP but thats just a dream (outside of JQ etc) codex arena, remember that, no neither do I.

Some parts of PvP are simply too elitist now and will never be in the reach of noobies like me.

It's what you make it to be. If you can't find a guild to HA or GvG with, you can make one for new people or you can randomway HA till you get better. There are also a plethora of guides around the internets to help teach newcomers.

Skye Marin · Jan 29, 2011, 01:40 PM // 13:40

The only way you'll get updates to HA if you and a dozen buddies with 10+ years of game development experience volunteered at Anet to work for free for six months.

The only way it would be effective is if you also invented a time machine and did this more than 3 years ago.

Ninja Dude · Jan 29, 2011, 02:53 PM // 14:53

This won't work. You can't get everyone to change to different builds because someone will just keep using the OP ones and steam roll them.

Killed u man · Jan 29, 2011, 03:21 PM // 15:21

I couldn't care less about dead hour or gimmick farmers, neither should anyone else. How does it hurt you if they farm dead hour all night long?

Obviously, I keep sort of track of who is what kind of player, so when I pug, I know not to take certain peope (cc or those 2-3 contagion guilds) despite them having R12, but for all I care, they can get R15 with their gimmick builds.

The worst part for me, and most people who left, is that when I finally do find the motivation to play (which is once a week now), I always end up in HoH Relic Run doing fcuk all for 6 minutes, only to watch the map end in a last second cap (which is luck > skill). Or a Cap Points with a totally retarded team, which happened the past 3 times. I did 3 runs in a row, and each run I got cap points in HoH where the 3rd team was completely retarded. They just randomly split off, they let blue cap their base for 3 minutes, and when we send 2 guys to cap theirs, they send their intire team back. Then they go for ours, despite us being last.

Point being: Cap Points with a completely clueless team is not fun. If you think it's fun, you're one of those people who enjoy hours of rock paper scissor on end, yummy! Even with 3 non-braindead teams, Cap Points is a patheticaly bad format. Anyone with the slightest education in math, or an IQ over 100 would understand the flaws of Cap Points which simply can't be fixed by "changing bases" or changing the paths/acess roads...

King of the hill is the closest thing to old school cap, but the fact that you accumulate points during the game, means that there will usually (90+% of the time) be a team that lost 2-3 minutes before the end. Thus always leaving one team 1v1, so there will always be someone who gets ganked...

As for builds:

99% of the shit we have nowadays is a result of terrible buffs over the years. They should've added "conditions/requirements" to the Sin attacks so balanced them, but instead they just made them button bash. (Jagged Strike, add: If target foe was already suffering from a condition, this skil takes an additional 8 seconds to recharge; shit like this...)

Even then, if all this shitmaps like Relic Run, Cap Points and KoTH would make room for old school holding again, people could actually spec againt shit builds.

When you have to bring foes, grasping, Make Haste, Song, shutdown and defence solely to be competitive in HoH, that's already a couple of skill bars set in stone. And that's the very least of competitiveness. You're still better off with: Fall Back, second Song, secondary snare, KD, hard shutdown, dash runners...

In the old days, this is what you needed:

...

Nothing. All you needed was a very basic amount defence (2 Monks with some party defence) and the 6 other skill bars were completely free. If people ran bspike, you could run more red bar healing, if people ran pressure, you could run Extinguish, etc...
Right now, it's nearly impossible to spec this as-degenerative-as-ever meta-builds because you simply don't have any room in your build. The second you start taking skills out, you're crippling yourself in HoH OR you're sacrificing major offensive power.

Old school holding isn't the solution to everything, but it sure as hell will make HoH more balanced, more playable and as a whole fun to play.

Missmelady · Jan 29, 2011, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Well I agree that ha is dead there are a few things they could do to make it not suck as much. First off remove unholy, forgotten, make courtyard and halls last team holding. Make halls always require 3 teams. Add better rewards for just playing because after 8pm central in the U.S only 3-5 teams play. Bring back 6 team Burial, scarred earth, and reintroduce Broken tower. Broken Tower was one of the best kill count maps ever. As far as the meta, Ya I run gimmiks and honestly the team that holds during American Dead hour is however gets on blue when it starts. Every night it is usually someone differn't.

Anyway better rewards may get more people interested. But I think the ultimate test will be in 2 or 3 weeks when it is double ha weekend. If double ha weekend is semi dead from what it usually is then I believe Anet will have to intervene in some way.

Killed You Man I agree with you on 99% of your post.

Missing HB · Jan 29, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

The worst part for me, and most people who left, is that when I finally do find the motivation to play (which is once a week now), I always end up in HoH Relic Run doing fcuk all for 6 minutes, only to watch the map end in a last second cap (which is luck > skill). Or a Cap Points with a totally retarded team, which happened the past 3 times. I did 3 runs in a row, and each run I got cap points in HoH where the 3rd team was completely retarded. They just randomly split off, they let blue cap their base for 3 minutes, and when we send 2 guys to cap theirs, they send their intire team back. Then they go for ours, despite us being last.

Exactly same.
Almost everytime on relics , people aren't watching map and it's almost everytime both wards on you , other 2 running free. You snare 1 , other wins , etc...
Cap pts, like you mentionned , is usually people not thinking at all. Everytime around 1.30 , 1 team is ganked : either team who is holding altar auto-wins, either that team is ganked and 3rd wins....

When you consider 1v1 are completly unfair and 3v3 rely on pure luck, these are main reasons 2/3 of players left ( last 1/3 being because of heroes removal , crap builds , lack of updates , etc...)

I Echo Dshot · Jan 29, 2011, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Anet has no intrest in continuing to support HA.

And they are right to do that because no matter what they do, HA will still be composed of two types of players. R0 and R10. Really the only people who are active in HA are people like [AIDS] [Setting Sun] etc. and the occasional noobranker groups on quest days. Even if the meta were balanced (no soul twisting) the noobs would be constantly farmed and would eventually quit.

Seriously, go GvG where a tactics caller and 2 good monks can carry a semi decent team composed of barbed signet shitters, esurge spikers, and invoke buttonmashers.

What I would love to see happen is a central hub for GvG pugging. Atleast there, the ladder system can somewhat do what it was designed to do.

Killed u man · Jan 29, 2011, 07:05 PM // 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Echo Dshot

What I would love to see happen is a central hub for GvG pugging. Atleast there, the ladder system can somewhat do what it was designed to do.

I've been saying this for 2 years. Tough Embark Beach might incoorporate this.

I know it's offtopic tough...

superraptors · Jan 29, 2011, 07:58 PM // 19:58

gotta agree on relics and cap points part makes the job twice as hard, relics is a bad concept should be removed from tombs alltogether, cap points is good but doesnt belong in a 3way halls match

and yeh playing once a week isnt surprising, because halls 2/3rds of the time is based on a coin flip

its more of the format affecting builds etc

however nothing is going to change after 3+ years

placetoguru · Jan 29, 2011, 09:38 PM // 21:38

i still believe that a BIG skill rebalanced targeting HA and maybe the removal of cap points might be a taking a step into things better. i liked that idea for GVG pugging hub ^^. but really i think HA would be much more interesting if people could try and build wars the holding team by not having the need for dedicated snares, hast song, ect. not saying people would be fine with no snares or rupts etc. but making the format more flexible would most likely bring a new meta to play.

diabiosx · Jan 30, 2011, 01:01 AM // 01:01

well rather you like to think it or not, HA is the most balanced arena in all of GW. But what is "balance" to you guys will be different from my definition. To me balance is a game state where not 1 build dominates all. In HA there are so many builds that can do so well and win, hence balanced. The problem I have with HA atm is that luck+gank is the major factor for winning hoh(one of the reasons why most players quit.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

cap points is good but doesnt belong in a 3way halls match

Wrong cap points hoh is bad in 2ways as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by beerelf

Some parts of PvP are simply too elitist now and will never be in the reach of noobies like me.

i agree, but its kinda hard to change that mentality that has been set and promoted for 6+years

Div · Jan 30, 2011, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Of course there are always balance issues and elitism, but the main problem here is the lack of players. During American times, there's about two high ranged groups (r9+), 2-3 midranged groups (r5-8), and the occasional lower ranked group that dies off pretty quickly after losing to zaishen or UW. Anyone who is one of those "lower ranked groups" basically has no chance of getting any wins or fame.

Now, imagine if there were 20 high ranked groups, 30-40 midranged groups, and 50+ lower ranked groups. That'd mean even if you're a new group who can't play with higher ranked players, you still have a good chance of winning and ranking up.

superraptors · Jan 30, 2011, 04:08 AM // 04:08

if new players or lower ranked people had common sense, im sure its not that hard to get a grasp of ha.

vinoth · Jan 30, 2011, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

if new players or lower ranked people had common sense, im sure its not that hard to get a grasp of ha.

There are very good guys r9 ish, but had most of their pvp experience in GvG or RA. These guys do very well in straight 1v1 matches but have no clue on splitting in HA, and will lose you the match straight away. Ha has a very steep learning curve.

The other option is, take one r9 guy in ur team and train him. If he is only r9, he wont leave your guild/group and will look up to u as a mentor till he gets his birdy. - This statement does not apply to French guys cuz they have no sense of belonging, they skip guilds every 3rd day. (No racist pun intended)

Missing HB · Jan 30, 2011, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by vinoth

1-There are very good guys r9 ish, but had most of their pvp experience in GvG or RA. These guys do very well in straight 1v1 matches but have no clue on splitting in HA, and will lose you the match straight away. Ha has a very steep learning curve.

2-The other option is, take one r9 guy in ur team and train him. If he is only r9, he wont leave your guild/group and will look up to u as a mentor till he gets his birdy. - This statement does not apply to French guys cuz they have no sense of belonging, they skip guilds every 3rd day. (No racist pun intended)

1- Due to luck factor , you cannot know most of times what to do and thus , although 60% of players do terrible on this map( especially getting ghost stucked ) , but some other are trying tactics that could work but fail on end . Upon all fights i played in HB , i ( and other Hb'ers ) know how to do nice tactics relying on how stupid opponents are ( i.e 95% of time ), and some other players , especially GvG'ers do know too...... However , people who only HA don't really understand anything at all.

Typical example of blaming someone is : necro going alone to yellow base at 1.27 , noone saw him...
Several options now :
- noone dies/goes back , he caps we win they tell him nice played.
- unfortunately , yellow rez up at 1.00 , they kill him , we can't cap altar and for sure ppl will call him " noob "

Point here is that it relies on pure luck , since 3rd team killing yellow is included.... However , you can't call the guy a failer for what he did...

All the fact is that , of course getting ghost stucked or getting timekilled is usually terrible fail , but you hardly can tell someone is failing because of the tactic...

2- off topic but i hope you're kidding considering the players you team up with ...