Curse

Sk8tborderx · Apr 14, 2011, 07:16 AM // 07:16

You can add Lyssa's haste, twin moon sweep, onslaught, harriers grasp, and pious fury to that list. The last 3 aren't really problems right now but they will be once the more overpowered skills are fixed.

EDIT: Seriously who the hell thought a passive skill that gives permanent cripple and removes conditions was a good idea? Oh yea, it also works on ranged weapons.

cantalus · Apr 14, 2011, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Seriously who the hell thought a passive skill that gives permanent cripple and removes conditions was a good idea? Oh yea, it also works on ranged weapons.

someone who thinks that dervishes need more than one megaelite, someone who thinks that soul twisting was good for driving away people from HA but want more to leave now

Seraphim of Chaos · Apr 14, 2011, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Warriors sacrifice utility for damage.

Dervish have it all rolled up into one and in a much more efficient way. Skills like Onslaught just provide way too much bar compression and laughs at skills that we once thought were hella broken like Primal Rage.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 14, 2011, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Warriors sacrifice utility for damage.

Dervish have it all rolled up into one and in a much more efficient way. Skills like Onslaught just provide way too much bar compression and laughs at skills that we once thought were hella broken like Primal Rage.

It really says a lot when dervs get primal rage on crack and no one runs it because other elites are more powerful.

Destrudo · Apr 14, 2011, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Can someone remind me, why wasn't a PvE/PvP skill split implemented for most of the skills in the first place?

Half the skills aren't unusual compared to the gimmicks that are generally run within PvE (and it did at least solve the main issue with Dervishes there), but having just gotten around to playing and observing PvP since the update this is just absurd. Seems melee has been changed completely with Dervs becoming the flavor of the month profession for just about any PvP format, and quite a few skills need to be hit by the nerfbat still.

Avatars of Balthazar, Grenth, Onslaught are ridiculous. Heart of Fury as well, and there's plenty of others that have been mentioned countless times by now.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 14, 2011, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destrudo

Can someone remind me, why wasn't a PvE/PvP skill split implemented for most of the skills in the first place?

The only answer I can come up with is ANET just doesn't care about balance anymore. There is no other way to explain them having made the same mistake with allowing IAS and IMS together for the 3rd time.

*lemming* · Apr 14, 2011, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destrudo

Can someone remind me, why wasn't a PvE/PvP skill split implemented for most of the skills in the first place?

Half the skills aren't unusual compared to the gimmicks that are generally run within PvE (and it did at least solve the main issue with Dervishes there), but having just gotten around to playing and observing PvP since the update this is just absurd. Seems melee has been changed completely with Dervs becoming the flavor of the month profession for just about any PvP format, and quite a few skills need to be hit by the nerfbat still.

Avatars of Balthazar, Grenth, Onslaught are ridiculous. Heart of Fury as well, and there's plenty of others that have been mentioned countless times by now.

It's a lot of extra work on their part to make even one split skill, AFAIK. To do so for an entire class would be insane.

As for allowing Primal Rage to exist again, I blame sheer madness. Or forgetfulness about what happened last time.

Krill · Apr 14, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destrudo

Can someone remind me, why wasn't a PvE/PvP skill split implemented for most of the skills in the first place?

As I recall anet wanted to maintain continuity between PvE and PvP for the theoretical casual player who would be confused by a split. Again going off memory, the initial plan for the split was a last resort option for skills that were prevalent in the PvE meta and balanced (as far as PvE goes), but problematic in the PvP meta with no easy fix for simultaneous PvE and PvP balance.

Of course as time went on they relied more and more on splits as balance solutions, then started doing massive amounts of ridiculous skill buffing. Now there are entire attributes like command, motivation and beast mastery where over half the skills are split.

Despite all that anet still (amazingly) seems to believe that PvE and PvP are the same game for the most part. The reality of course is that PvE plays more like a RTS with heroes or a side scroll game farming / speed whatevering by pattern memorization. And PvP keeps getting shit on by delusional updates...

Killed u man · Apr 14, 2011, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Actually, I think Anet already explained why they don't want to do a full PvE/PvP split:

Each split would imply a new skill being created, and thus required to be pre-loaded upon loading GW. As such, Anet claimed that splitting too many skills (and thus creating too many new skills) would severely deteriorate the client's performance.

How much of this is true is obviously unknown, as I would strike me pretty hard that adding a few skills is a no-go, but adding intire campaigns (and over 300 skills) is fine.

But yeah, that's pretty much their explanation why there isn't a full split.

reaper with no name · Apr 16, 2011, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destrudo

Can someone remind me, why wasn't a PvE/PvP skill split implemented for most of the skills in the first place?

Half the skills aren't unusual compared to the gimmicks that are generally run within PvE (and it did at least solve the main issue with Dervishes there), but having just gotten around to playing and observing PvP since the update this is just absurd. Seems melee has been changed completely with Dervs becoming the flavor of the month profession for just about any PvP format, and quite a few skills need to be hit by the nerfbat still.

Avatars of Balthazar, Grenth, Onslaught are ridiculous. Heart of Fury as well, and there's plenty of others that have been mentioned countless times by now.

Fortunately, a skill split isn't really needed here.

The big elites that matter in PvE for dervishes are AoD, PR, and VoS. So AoB, AoG, and Onslaught can be stomped into the ground with no PvE repercussions. Several of the flash enchantments can also recieve massive nerfs to their effects without a problem (since their primary use in PvE is to fuel attack skills, trigger AoHM, or trigger AoD).

As long as it's not a huge part of the dervish PvE meta, it can be safely nerfed without a split.

AndrewSX · Apr 16, 2011, 09:54 AM // 09:54

Onslaught is still powerful in PvE too(IAS+IMS+increase adren gain is never bad).
AoB fuels perfectly some SF eles.
AoG......no, AoG must die(seen enough for the rest of my life just playing a little of RA).

I can agree that some things are very broken in pvp and not meta pve, but this do not allow to destroy them imo.

On the other hand, some things like harrier haste/grasp are quite useless in pve(mobs don't kite away), so can be easily nerfed. Other ones may have recharge/cost/effects minor tweaks.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 16, 2011, 11:49 AM // 11:49

All dervs in PvE should use VoS or Pious Renewal. Nothing else even comes close.

Worst case, make a PvE/PvP split for all avatars, and then nerf them into the ground for PvP. They don't add anything positive to the game and useless skills don't cause problems.

AndrewSX · Apr 16, 2011, 02:59 PM // 14:59

The fact that some elite are more OP then others doesn't mean that u can't use anything else. In pvp foes are humans, who play to win, and running the most OP skillset is the only way to win something. In general pve mobs are created just to be killed with variety of bars.
Surely some skills are more pvp/pve oriented then others, but Anet shouldn't simply destroy one elite that unbalance PvP saying "In PvE Vos/PR/AoD are considered better than this, who cares."

Gah, my pve mindset which comes out.

Sk8tborderx · Apr 16, 2011, 03:06 PM // 15:06

That is what the skill split between PvE and PvP is meant to solve. In PvE the Avatars are not a problem, and actually weaker then other elites in most cases. In PvP though it is a terrible mechanic and should die.

Our Virus · Apr 16, 2011, 03:15 PM // 15:15

It's HA, better players win matches with or without dervs. It's PvE, no ones cares about OPness in PvE. Just make builds to counter the pvp meta, I thought necros and mes had a way to remove enhantments... Guess ANet changed tht too?

Sk8tborderx · Apr 16, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Just because better players win doesn't mean skills aren't overpowered or bad for the game. Dervish Avatars are a terrible mechanic. They don't get better with player skill, you simply cast it when it is recharged and you are using it to its fullest potential. Skills that are healthy for the game are many times better in the hands of a good player, perfect examples are bulls strike, reversal of fortune, and frenzy. You give a bad player bulls strike and he is much less of a threat. Give it to a good player and he will be able to cause pressure, and possibly force kills.

I also wasn't talking about HA, people always run gimmick crap there.

tonyh · Apr 20, 2011, 05:18 AM // 05:18

I think Dervishes need to be nerfed. As we have seen with the nerfs to Grenth, ANet has the ability to make quick nerfs, but for some reason has not decided to this month. They likely have good intentions, but their understanding of Dervishes is flawed.

In the February MAT, Grenth Dervishes rolled teams, even those in single elims, in under 10 minutes. The balance team must have seen this and decided nerfs were necessary.

In the March MAT, teams took much longer to drop. The finals, sC vs LaG, almost went to 28. The balance team probably saw this and thought "OK, dervishes are semi-balanced now. We will nerf them in a few months."

However, in medium and low ranked GvG battles, teams are still getting rolled by Dervishes. They are just as overpowered as they were before. The reason teams stayed alive longer in March is because top players were able to adapt to playing against them. In particular, the backline did a lot of work to adapt to Dervishes. Compare prot builds in the February and March MATs to see specific examples of the changes.

Lower ranked teams cannot adapt as quickly and are still getting rolled. In fact, lower ranked teams may never be able to adapt. Protection prayers scales very well with player skill. A top prot monk is a lot more efficient than a mediocre one. On the other hand, the difference between a top dervish and a mediocre dervish is not as great.

If Dervishes are acceptably balanced at the top level of play, they will be ridiculously overpowered at medium and low levels due to the inherent nature of the classes. If ANet would like to help intermediate and beginner level GvG teams, they must nerf Dervishes.

Fate Crusher · Apr 20, 2011, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

It's HA, better players win matches with or without dervs. It's PvE, no ones cares about OPness in PvE. Just make builds to counter the pvp meta, I thought necros and mes had a way to remove enhantments... Guess ANet changed tht too?

It's not about removing enchantments and the buffs provided when it's maintained, it's the effect these enchantments have when activated or when used as a tear down. There is no way to prevent activation.

HA meta has been terrible. Me and a friend had started up GW again hoping to see that our old Marcoway build would still roll retards in HA. Sure it works, but it's no longer too effective. The build concentrated around a lot of degen pressure and disabling the mid/backline whilst keeping frontline with soothing images. I'm sure some people saw WoTU holding halls a few times with this build.

But this meta is just seriously..... I'm already annoyed straight away that RC is needed so either you need a strong FF or draw on the healer... And I hate running draw.... Then the prot could take reverse hex over stability, or even spirit bond. Call me old fashioned, but running the old LS and Healers Boon Combo was fun and challenging, forcing teams to bring strips which meant you had to play smart. Nowadays i don't have to worry about channeling and I'll just tank the 3 dervs as healer. These migraine mesmers, with all their wisdom, won't even think of trying to rupt channeling, so there goes my Insp staff. Don't need it.
Secondly, to see soooo many 123 builds being played has deteriorated the fun involved with this game... I'd honestly like to hear vent recordings of these teams, I'm sure they're silent for the whole match.

To be very honest, I like the new ideas for the Dervishes, but the way Anet implemented it created extremely bad gameplay. The 2011 player base saw the exploit and created a build that can run around and hit anything it wants.

How they'll fix it? I have no clue... I'm just sick and tired of seeing Derv trains so I'll be quitting again. Pz.

cantalus · Apr 20, 2011, 05:50 PM // 17:50

was already getting sick to death of HA with the bbshitterway, derv buff was the final straw, now i pop into RA till i meet a sync team, flame the lame scum and go play other games

JSX · Apr 20, 2011, 07:59 PM // 19:59

I think AoB needs to be toned down a bit like AoG, and some skills too (harrier's grasp for example)

aside: I wonder if its possible to give mesmers or necros some sort of shut down hex to target flash enchantments specifically. Like how have ignorance for signets and vocal minority for shouts or in the necros case add it to a Well Spell also? (To compliment some more tweaking on the derv to allow for warrs and sins to be viable again)