Curse

kedde · May 09, 2011, 08:19 AM // 08:19

I agree. Ab isn't broken. It's mechanically working as intended, only the psychology of people has driven it to its current state. Just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing nerf FA/JQ and make the better designed format be the better rewarding format. Bringing in more players means organized teams on one side will mean less. There'll be more shit players against shit players and the win/loss ratio will thus even out more and maps will become more neutral.

own age myname · May 09, 2011, 12:13 PM // 12:13

AB doesn't need an overhaul, it just needs better rewards. It's what FA/JQ needed, and it's what AB needs atm.

Vincent Evan · May 09, 2011, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

I agree. Ab isn't broken. It's mechanically working as intended, only the psychology of people has driven it to its current state. Just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing nerf FA/JQ and make the better designed format be the better rewarding format. Bringing in more players means organized teams on one side will mean less. There'll be more shit players against shit players and the win/loss ratio will thus even out more and maps will become more neutral.

If I read this correctly, you say that AB is still working as intended, yet we should nerf another arena so we can draw more people to a different one? Instead of quoting everyone here, I'll lay down a universal rebuttal for everyone who said it isn't broken.

The fact that there has been such an uneven side for multiple years only shows that there IS something wrong with AB. This is a multi-faceted issue, part of it is the players, but another pivotal role is AB itself. The mechanics offer repetitive play and overtime, it just so happens that one side essentially decided to quit. To actually "fix" AB, and beyond, you cannot just fix one side and say that it's perfect. No, you need to fix the gameplay, making it more competitive, challenging, yet still offering that casual PvP that it has over the years. Rewards are a temporary issue, yes it will offer them more faction, yet still, there is the problem of a lack of player base. Some may come back, but we need more then some. For an arena like AB (and why I said it was so special on that wiki page), it needs to be completely reformed to meet the demands of the general lack of players relatively to say, 2008.

I'll stress this again, there is still an underlying issue that needs to be fixed. The fact that players can be stuck on their homeland for so long needs to be address. Getting to Ancestral Lands and Kaanai back during Factions release was an amazing feat. Now, it happens daily. All the maps are the essentially the same. Yes there is an underdog advantage, but it is hardly enough for the majority of players to be stopped. AB should exist on a scale of difficultly. Make homelands more exclusive (for lack of a better word) and make it so that the PvP in homelands will offer more challenges and a higher faction for a win. The old system needs to be rid of, and replaced by this, giving AB a better experience and maximizing its PvP potential.

Oh, as for the guesting bit, I whole-heartidly agree to that, I'll add it to the suggestion. Thank you for the feedback, kedde; also, [ban] ftw.

Sankt Hallvard · May 09, 2011, 01:05 PM // 13:05

People have already told you AB is not broken and given some reasons for this still you keep insisting that it IS broken and "must" be overhauled. A firm believer in the force of the better argument I guess I will have to cast my lot to hopefully help you see why your suggestion is a bad one. (Not to detract from your obvious good intentions)

During "euro hours" you will relatively easily get games on both factions. Outside this timeframe admittedly AB is pretty dead, but this isn't AB specific. Gvg is dead, I guess HA is dead(haven't played in years), FA/JQ are semi-dead, RA is semi-dead making it a haven for syncs and of course CA is dead all the time. So if you want to AB outside "eurohours" I think you need to approach the problem in a different way.

As for AB it's true the maps are usually AL or Grenz, as for why this is so I'm not really sure. Lately there has been a bit more variation, though. I've seen Kaanai a few times this past month even. The home advantage is already strong enough, the problem here lies with the players who fail to take advantage of this obvious advantage. The attacking side is basically forced to run teams with nukers to take out bigger shrines and castle npcs. If the defenders fail to exploit this they deserve to lose. You want to make the advantage even bigger just to cover for player incompetence, can you not see how wrong it is to change a working format just because its players are bad? What if the "good luxons" decide to switch sides? Another revamp of the format?

Obviously the maps are limited and "repetitive" as you say but the same is true for the rest of the game. I find AB the most dynamic format, people constantly bring funny and "unique" builds and ideas into the game making it anything but repetitive. The fact that the format isn't infested with overpowered dervs makes it even more enjoyable. Even RA has a more stale "meta" than AB.

I'll say again AB is not broken. From experience I know that whenever Anet decides to "fix" a format it usually ends up less playable, at least for me. They fixed TA, they fixed dervs and they fixed costume brawl. I guess some people enjoyed these overhauls, I didn't.

Dot Rotten · May 09, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Yeah to add... :P

I do like the idea of the AoE skills, they could really be of benefit to players and they can speed up the game without making the other team too overpowered.

I like the idea that you've chosen to give the skills a lower level of armor/percentage rather than e.g 33% or +40 armor, it keeps it balanced but still gives the team mates power :P

1 thing I suggest on that is that just say a team was absolutely dominating... would the armor/speed increase to it's cap? e.g if a team had all shrines capped it would boost to like... 25% faster, +40 armor, and 15% damage increase? Then you would have to work for a boost rather than it being in place the second you cap a shrine or whatever.

Also, the skill updates for the NPC's on the stations is a VERY good idea, I would like it to be more challenging for people to actually cap a shrine rather than just.. meh, throw afew rupts and spells which downs them pretty fast.

Balanced builds on NPC's could really make a difference, and make it a lot more challenging

thanks for reading

Vincent Evan · May 09, 2011, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

People have already told you AB is not broken and given some reasons for this still you keep insisting that it IS broken and "must" be overhauled. A firm believer in the force of the better argument I guess I will have to cast my lot to hopefully help you see why your suggestion is a bad one. (Not to detract from your obvious good intentions)

During "euro hours" you will relatively easily get games on both factions. Outside this timeframe admittedly AB is pretty dead, but this isn't AB specific. Gvg is dead, I guess HA is dead(haven't played in years), FA/JQ are semi-dead, RA is semi-dead making it a haven for syncs and of course CA is dead all the time. So if you want to AB outside "eurohours" I think you need to approach the problem in a different way.

As for AB it's true the maps are usually AL or Grenz, as for why this is so I'm not really sure. Lately there has been a bit more variation, though. I've seen Kaanai a few times this past month even. The home advantage is already strong enough, the problem here lies with the players who fail to take advantage of this obvious advantage. The attacking side is basically forced to run teams with nukers to take out bigger shrines and castle npcs. If the defenders fail to exploit this they deserve to lose. You want to make the advantage even bigger just to cover for player incompetence, can you not see how wrong it is to change a working format just because its players are bad? What if the "good luxons" decide to switch sides? Another revamp of the format?

Obviously the maps are limited and "repetitive" as you say but the same is true for the rest of the game. I find AB the most dynamic format, people constantly bring funny and "unique" builds and ideas into the game making it anything but repetitive. The fact that the format isn't infested with overpowered dervs makes it even more enjoyable. Even RA has a more stale "meta" than AB.

I'll say again AB is not broken. From experience I know that whenever Anet decides to "fix" a format it usually ends up less playable, at least for me. They fixed TA, they fixed dervs and they fixed costume brawl. I guess some people enjoyed these overhauls, I didn't.

While there has been some reasons, in all honesty, I have yet to see any be able to back up their argument. Maybe they just post and leave, or just don't care to validate their point, either way, it does not defeat the point that AB is broken, and has been for a long time.

Essentially, there is no other way to attract players besides items they so desire, in this case, it would be Luxon/Kurzick faction and Balthazar faction, which I have proposed in the suggestion. But, the fact is, even with rewards, AB's current gameplay is still stagnant, rewards will not fix that, mechanics will. Offer a less repetitive style of gaming and offer rewards equivalent to the effort in FA/JQ. That's how, people will stil, giving AB a more constant player because they will enjoy the arena more, rather than just grinding for faction.

I think you might need to think further back, because besides the Double Faction Weekend for AB, it has always been Ancestral Lands, and some play on Grenz Frontier. Even if it wasn't, (but it still is) it's still clear the fact that a map can be camped for so long shows that something has to be fixed. You cannot just add a random map rotation, because of the outpost controls, but a faster and more concise system where people actually understand HOW to move maps, with that, giving the underdog more of an advantage will promote playing on a variety of maps, rather than AL alone.

AB is not the level of dynamics that you say it is. While it is free, there is still a limit of control of what you can and cannot do. Plus, just because a build might be unique, doesn't mean it works. With that, one does not need to run meta builds, but something that they find innovative that still meets a required standard of quality. It does not matter, either way, what "build" or profession infests an arena, it is the quality of the gametype that counts, not the profession. Besides, with what I have offered, people can STILL screw around in AB, with changes to the shrines, and the environmental effects, it can even be argued that you could still screw around even more than the current form of AB.

I'm making the advantage better to preserve an implied exclusiveness to maps. Besides the fact that I said the buffs are subject to change, they are exactly meant to give the home team an advantage. If the attacking team wins (which they can), then they will get a larger reward. Giving AB such a method of higher challenges gives it much more of a value to playing. Give players that competitive drive to push the other team into their homeland, but also have a system that will push them back, giving a sort of "ebb and flow" to this new form of Alliance Battles. It is NOT compensating for player incompetency, the point of it is to give them a push to play AB. With shrine npc updates, they are meant to face a steeper learning curve, therefore making them modify and create a precedent for builds, thus creating a better standard of quality for players.

Thank you though, for that very insightful argument though, and thanks for feedback nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dot Rotten

Yeah to add... :P

I do like the idea of the AoE skills, they could really be of benefit to players and they can speed up the game without making the other team too overpowered.

I like the idea that you've chosen to give the skills a lower level of armor/percentage rather than e.g 33% or +40 armor, it keeps it balanced but still gives the team mates power :P

1 thing I suggest on that is that just say a team was absolutely dominating... would the armor/speed increase to it's cap? e.g if a team had all shrines capped it would boost to like... 25% faster, +40 armor, and 15% damage increase? Then you would have to work for a boost rather than it being in place the second you cap a shrine or whatever.

Also, the skill updates for the NPC's on the stations is a VERY good idea, I would like it to be more challenging for people to actually cap a shrine rather than just.. meh, throw afew rupts and spells which downs them pretty fast.

Balanced builds on NPC's could really make a difference, and make it a lot more challenging

thanks for reading

I'm sort of confused with what you're saying here, (thank you for a reply, nonetheless) but if I did read it write, you're talking about the environmental effects for each map, right? Well, with the environmental effects, which one is set for each map. On my suggestion, "Kurzick Defiance" would be the buff found in Ancestral Lands. That buff would only be for that map. The Kurzicks would never be able to obtain Kurzick Defiance and Kurzick Vitality (the buff on Grenz Frontier for Kurzicks) ever. Nor would they get the neutral, universal one found on Saltspray (Call to Arms.) With that though, say for example, that the Luxons are fighting on Grenz, while the Kurzicks have Kurzick Vitality, the Luxons will still carry the Call to Arms buff to compensate for a difference of advantages given to the Kurzicks.

Dot Rotten · May 09, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Yeah my bad, I did mean those skills.
I think I should proof-read after I type xD

& Yeah I understand that they would be only applicable in that certain map

Sorry for any miss understanding :P

Missing HB · May 09, 2011, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

During "euro hours" you will relatively easily get games on both factions. Outside this timeframe admittedly AB is pretty dead, but this isn't AB specific. Gvg is dead, I guess HA is dead(haven't played in years), FA/JQ are semi-dead, RA is semi-dead making it a haven for syncs and of course CA is dead all the time. So if you want to AB outside "eurohours" I think you need to approach the problem in a different way.

I can't agree with this... There's a difference in waiting times between HA/GvG and JQ/FA/AB....
Like this morning i tried again... In HA there were exactly 7 players in id1 outpost , last hall was won 6 hours ago... I didn't even bother to GvG since it would probably be the same ( need confirm though , but there's 99% chance i am right)...
However i went JQ/FA/Ab and there were still many people on american district... Ok , there were a bit less in AB , but i still managed to get a fight after 12 restarts , which probably wouldn't have happened in HA or GvG

Anyway , about suggestions , i think they're fine to revamp the format , but considering there's a big luck part ( relying on your random teammates + who you face) , i wouldn't implement a title for it ( to a lesser extend, gladiator the way it is is a pure luck title....)

Vincent Evan · May 09, 2011, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

I can't agree with this... There's a difference in waiting times between HA/GvG and JQ/FA/AB....
Like this morning i tried again... In HA there were exactly 7 players in id1 outpost , last hall was won 6 hours ago... I didn't even bother to GvG since it would probably be the same ( need confirm though , but there's 99% chance i am right)...
However i went JQ/FA/Ab and there were still many people on american district... Ok , there were a bit less in AB , but i still managed to get a fight after 12 restarts , which probably wouldn't have happened in HA or GvG

Anyway , about suggestions , i think they're fine to revamp the format , but considering there's a big luck part ( relying on your random teammates + who you face) , i wouldn't implement a title for it ( to a lesser extend, gladiator the way it is is a pure luck title....)

With all due respect, he is write with credit than you give him. Today's ZCombat is Alliance Battles. Try tomorrow, on that note, thank you for the feedback!

urania · May 09, 2011, 07:11 PM // 19:11

I'm not quite sure you understand what 'broken' usually refers to.
It has a lot to do with power creep, and also with abuse of particular game mechanics in a particular game format (e.g. shove spike/any multiple monk setup in TA, the old rit spirit poop spam in HA/gvg). It is partially a result of power creep, but also a consequence of just plain bad map designs and inadequate skill balances, many of which are now merely a change for change's sake.

AB in its essence is not broken, but it does need changes it did not need so badly a few years ago, when the player base was still big enough to keep those problems in check with relatively high player activity.

promoting even more fluxes might actually make it a broken format (insta gib sins could well be one instance of current flux abuse).

Vincent Evan · May 09, 2011, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

I'm not quite sure you understand what 'broken' usually refers to.
It has a lot to do with power creep, and also with abuse of particular game mechanics in a particular game format (e.g. shove spike/any multiple monk setup in TA, the old rit spirit poop spam in HA/gvg). It is partially a result of power creep, but also a consequence of just plain bad map designs and inadequate skill balances, many of which are now merely a change for change's sake.

AB in its essence is not broken, but it does need changes it did not need so badly a few years ago, when the player base was still big enough to keep those problems in check with relatively high player activity.

promoting even more fluxes might actually make it a broken format (insta gib sins could well be one instance of current flux abuse).

I understand that it is generally refered to the power creep GW has gotten through expansions, however, I meant broken as a system that does not run as it should.

In all honesty, these Flux-like buffs can definitely be questioned as overpowered, however, unlike Lone Wolf, it is not conditional and relatively weaker compared to Saltspray. I want to find a balance with these buffs to where it does provide a higher advantage on homeland maps, but not something that would be extremely overpowered. (keyword: extremely)

kedde · May 09, 2011, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Evan

If I read this correctly, you say that AB is still working as intended, yet we should nerf another arena so we can draw more people to a different one? Instead of quoting everyone here, I'll lay down a universal rebuttal for everyone who said it isn't broken.

The fact that there has been such an uneven side for multiple years only shows that there IS something wrong with AB. This is a multi-faceted issue, part of it is the players, but another pivotal role is AB itself. The mechanics offer repetitive play and overtime, it just so happens that one side essentially decided to quit. To actually "fix" AB, and beyond, you cannot just fix one side and say that it's perfect. No, you need to fix the gameplay, making it more competitive, challenging, yet still offering that casual PvP that it has over the years. Rewards are a temporary issue, yes it will offer them more faction, yet still, there is the problem of a lack of player base. Some may come back, but we need more then some. For an arena like AB (and why I said it was so special on that wiki page), it needs to be completely reformed to meet the demands of the general lack of players relatively to say, 2008.

I'll stress this again, there is still an underlying issue that needs to be fixed. The fact that players can be stuck on their homeland for so long needs to be address. Getting to Ancestral Lands and Kaanai back during Factions release was an amazing feat. Now, it happens daily. All the maps are the essentially the same. Yes there is an underdog advantage, but it is hardly enough for the majority of players to be stopped. AB should exist on a scale of difficultly. Make homelands more exclusive (for lack of a better word) and make it so that the PvP in homelands will offer more challenges and a higher faction for a win. The old system needs to be rid of, and replaced by this, giving AB a better experience and maximizing its PvP potential.

Oh, as for the guesting bit, I whole-heartidly agree to that, I'll add it to the suggestion. Thank you for the feedback, kedde; also, [ban] ftw.

No, we should buff the format that isn't complete shit, which in turn would bring more players into it and fix the other issues.

Vincent Evan · May 09, 2011, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

last thing we need is more shit places like jq ans fa.

@original post, the format is fine as it is and if most definitely does not need a complete overhaul. what it needs are some minor tweaks and some extra loving (better rewards, a change to map system, a change to guesting) it deserves, just like TA did.

as sankt said, if it's not broken don't fix it.

moreover, as much as you might like the new flux bs, it's not as good as you think it is. nor does it bring any special benefits to the game. quite the opposite, actually.

What made you think I liked the Flux effects? There was no implication in any of my posts nor suggestions. I believe that AB itself and only should have it. AB =/= any other PvP format, pal.

As for the OP, it does need an overhaul, otherwise, you're only restoring a format temporarily. It needs to be revamped so with new rewards, said player base will actually have a larger incentive to stay and play AB. Otherwise, the format can still disadvantaged on either side, which therefore, will only encourage people to leave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

No, we should buff the format that isn't complete shit, which in turn would bring more players into it and fix the other issues.

Herp derp, quoted a wrong post, my apologies. I'm confused by the lack of detail in your post? By format I'm guessing you mean Alliance Battles, and you propose to "buff" (which is very vague) AB to get more players. That sounds exactly like what I'm saying, but knowing your stance, you probably mean something. Can you please elaborate further so I can rebuttal?

_Deals_ · May 09, 2011, 10:28 PM // 22:28

I know of hardcore people that got savior of the luxons/kurzick just from AB, i myself got to r5 from AB before the luxon quarry fff with eles, the MQVQ, then MQSC, along with kurzick fff and the dtsc and mtsc now, i could see myself getting another allegiance title winning ab's could bring back people to liking faction once more

urania · May 09, 2011, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Evan

Herp derp, quoted a wrong post, my apologies. I'm confused by the lack of detail in your post? By format I'm guessing you mean Alliance Battles, and you propose to "buff" (which is very vague) AB to get more players. That sounds exactly like what I'm saying, but knowing your stance, you probably mean something. Can you please elaborate further so I can rebuttal?

At least a dozen posts in this and the other AB thread clearly state the minimum that would be needed to spice things up in AB.

Somehow they seem to bounce off you like a tennis ball off a brick wall though.

Sankt Hallvard · May 09, 2011, 10:47 PM // 22:47

How realistic is it that Anet will pour resources into this major AB overhaul of yours anyway? They just made some derv changes and that project took a year.

Myself and others have proposed to add an option to switch sides without having to beg for guest invites in Kamadan for a long time now and even that small of a fix has not been considered. While it might not bring in hordes of new people it would at least let these people you refer to that lose all the time change sides from the losing to the winning faction. "If you can't beat them, join them." While I personally much prefer a challenge even if it means losing and could switch from the winning side to the losing side.

Currently I run around begging for guest invites so that I can always join the side with the fewer players in order to get more matches and less time spent waiting.

@Deals; I've maxed both tracks doing nothing but AB. Personally I think people who play a format or click sugar and alcohol items in-game only to advance in some title track are amazing dipshits but it seems to attract players like bees to honey nonetheless. I'm not convinced luring in people with this title-grind mentality will actually improve or "save" AB, though.

tealspikes · May 10, 2011, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Shiro's dead now the war has ended between the two factions. Yay. They just fight for fun and honor now similar to GvG.

-Fix this stupid alliance system so you don't have to choose a faction.
Sucks to have a guild or friend who would fit well into your alliance and then "oh whoops your luxon sorry bye bye".

-Allow players to join either side from guild hall and gtob.
The side with the least people is always the limiting factor. Free switching can help to keep both sides populated. And Im sure there are guildless folks who would enjoy AB.

-Fix the rewards so they are closer to equal for both sides on every map.
Discourages switching for reward's sake.

-Increase rewards.
Right now JQ completely overshadows AB in that area.

-Put the maps in a rotation instead of who won the most matches.
People have no control over the idiots who will be playing on their side.

Btw giving one side stat advantages is a terrible idea.

dorin · May 11, 2011, 04:18 AM // 04:18

You`re missing a few new maps on your list and we have a new format. Don`t need that. The fact that ab is dead it doesn`t mean that ab is broken. They have to balance ab-fa-jq rewards. And probably do something about vanq`s too.

Increase/fix rewards - > more ppl.
More ppl -> map change.

Stop screaming for map rotation, how hard is to ask for a 100 gold guest, environmental effects and other things.

kedde · May 11, 2011, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Evan

Herp derp, quoted a wrong post, my apologies. I'm confused by the lack of detail in your post? By format I'm guessing you mean Alliance Battles, and you propose to "buff" (which is very vague) AB to get more players. That sounds exactly like what I'm saying, but knowing your stance, you probably mean something. Can you please elaborate further so I can rebuttal?

I just didn't think I had to repeat the same things over. But here goes.
Improve the rewards AB gives so it becomes the format in the game that provides the best faction gain(or nerf the other complete shit formats, or even a combination). This will do several things. It'll bring over all the people who play for the titlepoints due to most efficient faction/time ratio being there.
Due to this, the kurzick/luxon side will even out in terms of skill level since a big influx of about equally terrible players will mean the organized and decent teams will be in fewer matches and have less of an influence on where the map ends up every 4 hours.

By hopefully helping on it this way, it'd bring back even more people, those who quit AB due to it being stuck on Ancestral and the more casual crowd who were crying about constantly being rolled by the same organized teams on the luxon side.

Fate Crusher · May 12, 2011, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Before all the FFF came into play, you'd see the map changing maybe 3 times while playing AB. Lack of depth? You can full customise what build you want to run without the constraints of bringing a res.

Luxon FFF has forced AB to stay in one place for so long. Yes, these things should be nerfed because the AB format relies on the change of maps. There are reward multipliers for each map for a reason.

However, I feel the only way for people to get interested in AB again is to not only fix FFF (to allow balanced faction gains on both Kurz and Lux) for better map rotation, but also to buff AB in some way. Either increase rewards or bring in new mechanics. I'm not sure how the Flux can effect AB, since the attacking shrines already grant a 60 second Battle Cry.

I guess firstly, skills need to be balanced up again, I'd hate to see how Dervishes completely flatten shrines in seconds. You also won't see many creative builds anymore. Most likely a team will consist of 1 Derv, 2 Invoke and the monk. Surprise surprise.