Curse

Vincent Evan · May 08, 2011, 06:13 PM // 18:13

I noticed an earlier thread asking why AB is dead. It just so happens that I recently made a feedback page with a long list of proposed to changes that I know will fix AB. Nowadays, AB is the only free low-end PvP arena that allows you to make your own team with your own builds. As such, this arena definitely deserves a boost as it is one the most resilient.

I'll admit, I did just recently make it and yes I am trying to get this attention. I full heartidly believe that these changes will promote PvP in an arena that has seen a consistant amount of attention for a long time. With a few changes here and there, maybe we can see some good come to a new, fully revamped PvP arena.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...liance_Battles

instanceskiller · May 08, 2011, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Having just finished reading that, it's clear you are VERY passionate about AB. I agree it can sometimes be annoying having to play on the same map all the time, and waiting times can be atrocious, and then you go in only to face terrible groups of people, but I'm not sure some of the ideas you suggested would improve much of that.

I think introducing a one sided flux-like effect, especially with the triple-threat boosts you are suggesting would frustrate so many people on the opposing teams. To give everyone an IMS boost would lead to many long cat and mouse chases especially since you say kurzics tend to have bad players and the rest of the boosts will just lead to many players not even bothering to enter ab knowing they will be at such a disadvantage.

The title idea sounds nice but I think the story point of ab was to show your allegiance to a side by helping them so not quite sure about introducing another title alongside the allegiance title. Guild wars is already saturated enough with titles as well.

Finally, I think you summed up the situation with guild wars quite well, "the game is getting OLD!" The live team have already said they have got their whole year planned with WoC and whatnot and the earliest I can see this ever getting implemented is well, not anywhere within the next couple years or so at least. The changes you suggested will require quite a lot of dev time and I don't think they have that much with GW:B at the moment. Furthermore, AB hasn't been moaned about as much as other issues, and I don't think we will see much/any of those issues being fixed in the near future as well.

Vincent Evan · May 08, 2011, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by instanceskiller

Having just finished reading that, it's clear you are VERY passionate about AB. I agree it can sometimes be annoying having to play on the same map all the time, and waiting times can be atrocious, and then you go in only to face terrible groups of people, but I'm not sure some of the ideas you suggested would improve much of that.

I think introducing a one sided flux-like effect, especially with the triple-threat boosts you are suggesting would frustrate so many people on the opposing teams. To give everyone an IMS boost would lead to many long cat and mouse chases especially since you say kurzics tend to have bad players and the rest of the boosts will just lead to many players not even bothering to enter ab knowing they will be at such a disadvantage.

The title idea sounds nice but I think the story point of ab was to show your allegiance to a side by helping them so not quite sure about introducing another title alongside the allegiance title. Guild wars is already saturated enough with titles as well.

Finally, I think you summed up the situation with guild wars quite well, "the game is getting OLD!" The live team have already said they have got their whole year planned with WoC and whatnot and the earliest I can see this ever getting implemented is well, not anywhere within the next couple years or so at least. The changes you suggested will require quite a lot of dev time and I don't think they have that much with GW:B at the moment. Furthermore, AB hasn't been moaned about as much as other issues, and I don't think we will see much/any of those issues being fixed in the near future as well.

Yeah, I am passionate about AB. I see it as still my favorite form PvP. The problem AB faces is a multi-faceted issue. Yes, players of low quality here, but I meant to imply it with the NPC updates that there would be a higher learning curve in a match. If these NPCs get such skill updates, it will easily be three times as harder to cap. If such a standarded is implemented, that learning curve will become higher, thus creating a player base that is better.

As for the enivornmental effect, I wanted to give AB a much more active method of fighting and capping. As it is already, there is one slot on everyone's build that is dedicated to just moving around the map. While I like short burst IMS', it would be better if such buffs, while not to be overpowered, were in AB that gave people a passive IMs boost, along with more defense and more damage. The further in to one's homeland, the stronger the buff. With that, the enemy team (example: Kurzicks fighting at Kaanai) will still get the "Call to Arms" buff, which would give them the small, yet still significant buff to fight luxons.

As for my brief knowledge of programming, it is of my understanding that the whole time consumption to program such a proposal would the "clock and counter" for AB maps. Getting rid rid of that archiac system that is still an enigma to many, and adding in this one. NPC placement would take work, and roughly adding those monster skills would be 1 hour and 30 minutes to 2 hours. So while yes it may be somewhat larger, now would still be a perfect time to invest into changing AB. WoC is coming out as you said, and I thought it would be convienent if it was impleted during that, seeing both occur in Factions.

I wanted this as well to attract a larger playerbase. With many PvP arenas dead (HA, Codex, GvG [ to an extent]) and some filled with bots such as JQ, there really isn't much Guild Wars offer for a team of 4 in PvP. AB is special because it is now the only arena that has teams of four that you can choose with whatever builds you want. Investing time into this arena, I believe, would bode well for the PvP community and possibly attract others as well.

Thanks for responding! I love any feedback.

jackinthe · May 08, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

i also love ab.
i still think the faction is low relatively, but a lot of good ideas XD
kudos

Elnino · May 08, 2011, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Some very good ideas.

However, no title should be implemented. It will just degenerate AB and turn it into something like HA and CA - which are volatile environments for the unranked.

Dot Rotten · May 08, 2011, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Looks like a good idea, and I can see you've put in A LOT of effort and thought into that wiki page. I too, was a big fan of AB, and I managed to get almost all of my current Kurzick title through AB.

I also like the idea of the Kurzick/Luxon title update, would be nice to give the experienced, yet not serious pvp'ers something to do rather than having to lie in HA about having r9+ just to get a taste of decent pvp.

I think this would be an awesome update, let's just hope that Anet look at it :P

Buns United · May 08, 2011, 10:03 PM // 22:03

If I recall from AB during GW:F prime, party sizes were 12 and each player could enter individually. Being forced to bring a full party of 4 players only gives the individual player who just wants to enter incentive to PUG, and waste time doing so (as you'll always enter a PUG.) To be honest, this is one of the worst problems in AB; right next to inactivity. Personally I'd rather see this changed to a system where you fight teams with about as many PUG players as yourself. Limit party size to 1-4-(6?)-8-12, 1 being minimum required to enter.

+1

Vincent Evan · May 08, 2011, 10:29 PM // 22:29

@ jack: Thank you, I'm glad I see some positive support!

@ Elinino: Yes, that is what I've been starting to think about. The title system is more of an idea (does not have any actual part of my New Deal) that could attract for a larger player base. The possibilities of what may happen are endless, spanning from rank discrimination to having it just be GWAMM fodder.

@ Dot Rotten: Thanks for the insight! As you probably read above, I'm starting to feel more reluctant about the idea of a title added, as there already is one, technically. Any other comments on it?

@ Buns United: Well, AB is actually very laid back, which I am sure you remember. In a sense, it is the TA of GuildWars today. You can still mess around with PUGs, it's just that there should still be a standard of how many people you bring. If I understood your post correctly, entering at random would add more uneeded variety to the game to the point where many would consider that match to be unacceptable. Thank you for the feedback!

Grumpy Bear · May 08, 2011, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I miss AB of 2-3 years ago

Anyway, I am all for any ideas of giving AB a much needed boost, it really does need some love else it will go the same way as every other PvP format.

Also, as people have suggested in threads before, remove the guest invites needed to switch sides.

Heres hoping that some of these ideas are implemented :3

Sk8tborderx · May 08, 2011, 11:16 PM // 23:16

All they really need to do is remove Kanaai canyon/Ancestral lands, and have a random map rotation every 4 hours. I would also say increase all Luxon, Kurzick, and Balthazar faction rewards by 50%.

Environmental effects wouldn't be good, it only creates more problems.* I also think adding any more titles is bad, there are enough titles for people to be grinding right now, no reason to add to the list.

*Using your suggestions, armor respecting damage and snares become weaker. Unless someone could come up with an effect that doesn't favor certain builds/professions there will always be problems.

Vincent Evan · May 08, 2011, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

All they really need to do is remove Kanaai canyon/Ancestral lands, and have a random map rotation every 4 hours. I would also say increase all Luxon, Kurzick, and Balthazar faction rewards by 50%.

Environmental effects wouldn't be good, it only creates more problems.* I also think adding any more titles is bad, there are enough titles for people to be grinding right now, no reason to add to the list.

*Using your suggestions, armor respecting damage and snares become weaker. Unless someone could come up with an effect that doesn't favor certain builds/professions there will always be problems.

It's not AL/KC's fault, to be honest. It's the uneven balance of players, and because of that, Ancestral Lands has been the dominant map. As for environmental effects, it will not create more problems. The problem is how stagnant the gameplay is to many. With the maps being so large and having to dedicate skills for increased movement speed, that shows how limited PvP can be sometime. What it also does is promote a neutral sided map, where it's not controlled by one faction like how it is with Ancestral Lands.

Thank you for the feedback!

Darth The Xx · May 08, 2011, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Decent list of changes.

But those environmental effects would give one team such a massive advantage its ridiculous, so I don't agree with them.

As for the title, if you are gonna have an AB specific title it needs to just be for AB win, regardless of team, there are tons of people who play both sides depending on current player population/where their friends are etc.

Ariena Najea · May 08, 2011, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Evan

It's not AL/KC's fault, to be honest. It's the uneven balance of players, and because of that, Ancestral Lands has been the dominant map. As for environmental effects, it will not create more problems. The problem is how stagnant the gameplay is to many. With the maps being so large and having to dedicate skills for increased movement speed, that shows how limited PvP can be sometime. What it also does is promote a neutral sided map, where it's not controlled by one faction like how it is with Ancestral Lands.

Thank you for the feedback!

I would definitely like to see players be able to play for the other side without guesting. For me, playing Ancestral or Grenz is boring as a Kurzick since we either steamroll the Luxons due to the map advantages or lose horribly because 2/3 of the group has no idea how to play (usually this). I would much rather play the disadvantaged side for more fun and the chance at more faction, and it is annoying to get guest invites for a team of four. As far as faction goes, I would also like to see a faction conversion NPC who converts 5k Luxon or Kurzick faction to the other for a fee of 2-3k (gogo gold sinks). For those who feel this makes no sense in game, the NPC could easily be playing both sides against each other for profit, and effectively be "bribing" the respective sides to forget you were killing their soldiers.

I do not want to see maps go away as it's rarely good to lose content. Adding my above suggestion would help even teams significantly, thus nullifying the need to remove maps for balance.

Vincent Evan · May 08, 2011, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth The Xx

Decent list of changes.

But those environmental effects would give one team such a massive advantage its ridiculous, so I don't agree with them.

As for the title, if you are gonna have an AB specific title it needs to just be for AB win, regardless of team, there are tons of people who play both sides depending on current player population/where their friends are etc.

First off, thank you for commenting. But, I am going to have to disagree with you to an extent. These environmental effects are meant to be put in place to help the underdog team push back to Saltspary and/or the other side's homeland. The buffs are exclusive for one side, and depending on which side, they will only get one. With that, the other team will still get the "Call to Arms" buff that will allow them to also have a passive buff that will give them an IMS, and some additional damage. While not being completely blown out, they are meant to definitely give one side an advantage. It's like that on purpose. AB should not be about constantly staying inside one's final map (AL or KC), that defeats the lore part of AB. It should be a challenge to fight on Grenz, and Keys, and make it so only those who show great strength can make it to Ancestral Lands or Kaanai Canyon. The the absolute "balanced" map is meant to Saltspray Beach, as it is the neutral map, where there is no shrines that one team can capture faster than the others.

Sankt Hallvard · May 08, 2011, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Terrible suggestions tbh. Why waste all these resources on a fully working format? As the saying goes: if it's not broken, don't fix it.

Trust bad suggestions to come from a guy who grabs a build off wiki and wins a competition for "original builds".

Vincent Evan · May 08, 2011, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I would definitely like to see players be able to play for the other side without guesting. For me, playing Ancestral or Grenz is boring as a Kurzick since we either steamroll the Luxons due to the map advantages or lose horribly because 2/3 of the group has no idea how to play (usually this). I would much rather play the disadvantaged side for more fun and the chance at more faction, and it is annoying to get guest invites for a team of four. As far as faction goes, I would also like to see a faction conversion NPC who converts 5k Luxon or Kurzick faction to the other for a fee of 2-3k (gogo gold sinks). For those who feel this makes no sense in game, the NPC could easily be playing both sides against each other for profit, and effectively be "bribing" the respective sides to forget you were killing their soldiers.

I do not want to see maps go away as it's rarely good to lose content. Adding my above suggestion would help even teams significantly, thus nullifying the need to remove maps for balance.

Okay, I have major respect for you as I can tell you love Rainbow Dash, so cheers to you. Now, for the serious part of my rebuttal, are you in support of my ideas for making it more advantagous for the Kurzicks on Kurzick homelands? Because it sounded like you did, but only if you were on the Luxons side. If I read your post correctly, what you like is essentially what I will offer. (As that each main aspect of my proposal requires all to make the overall objective a success.) If you had that buff, and with the others of players we will get, you WILL be offered that challenge as being the team with the disadvantage, and with that, if you win that match, more power to you! You of course, will get more Kurzick and Balth faction! Thanks for the reply, Rainbro!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Terrible suggestions tbh. Why waste all these resources on a fully working format? As the saying goes: if it's not broken, don't fix it.

Trust bad suggestions to come from a guy who grabs a build off wiki and wins a competition for "original builds".

With all due respect, can you get more intellectually in depth to why AB is broken? Or will you just use fallacious logic and denote my suggestions because I "copied a build off wiki". Please, stay on topic, and thank you for your feedback nonetheless.

ruk1a · May 09, 2011, 12:35 AM // 00:35

for now, they could simply increase the faction gained so people are given more incentive to ab. like others have said, the dev team doesn't have time for all these changes but faction change sounds relatively easy. it's clear to me that people would rather jq/fa because you get more faction out of it, as opposed to insanely long wait times in ab for crappy rewards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Evan

With all due respect, can you get more intellectually in depth to why AB is broken? Or will you just use fallacious logic and denote my suggestions because I "copied a build off wiki". Please, stay on topic, and thank you for your feedback nonetheless.

i'm pretty sure he's saying it's NOT broken in what you quoted.

Sk8tborderx · May 09, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincent Evan

It's not AL/KC's fault, to be honest. It's the uneven balance of players, and because of that, Ancestral Lands has been the dominant map. As for environmental effects, it will not create more problems. The problem is how stagnant the gameplay is to many. With the maps being so large and having to dedicate skills for increased movement speed, that shows how limited PvP can be sometime. What it also does is promote a neutral sided map, where it's not controlled by one faction like how it is with Ancestral Lands.

Thank you for the feedback!

I understand why you want the effects, I just have a problem with having a mechanic in an area that encourages certain builds and/or playstyles over others. Reducing the effectiveness of snares is just plain terrible, there is no other way to put it. AB is all about out-maneuvering your opponent, any changes that effect this are going to be bad. The side with the higher movement speed will always win unless they are absolutely terrible, and balancing around terrible players is also bad. Giving armor bonuses should also be left alone, everyone already knows the problems Elementalists have in PvE because of high armor, don't nerf them out of AB too.

Something like a small damage bonus (5% and 10%) on the maps in Luxon or Kurzick territory wouldn't be too bad. Saltspray should be left alone, it is the best map, no reason to mess with it.

EDIT: I just cannot see +armor or movement being beneficial in any way. I also don't think a case can be made to show otherwise, however I welcome being proven wrong.

SilentVex · May 09, 2011, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Environmental effects are a definite no go. Obvious.

The map rotation system you have outlined is how the system used to work before the momentum bonus update. All they need to do is remove the momentum bonus.

I'm still not sure what to make of the rewards. I actually don't mind the faction being sub-par so long as another reward is added to compensate - actually I'd prefer this. A title would be good, but I'm not sure if a pvp-esque title would motivate the pve crowd.

I outlined my thoughts on this a few days ago here:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/a...t10480164.html

urania · May 09, 2011, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buns United

If I recall from AB during GW:F prime, party sizes were 12 and each player could enter individually. Being forced to bring a full party of 4 players only gives the individual player who just wants to enter incentive to PUG, and waste time doing so (as you'll always enter a PUG.) To be honest, this is one of the worst problems in AB; right next to inactivity. Personally I'd rather see this changed to a system where you fight teams with about as many PUG players as yourself. Limit party size to 1-4-(6?)-8-12, 1 being minimum required to enter.

+1

last thing we need is more shit places like jq ans fa.

@original post, the format is fine as it is and if most definitely does not need a complete overhaul. what it needs are some minor tweaks and some extra loving (better rewards, a change to map system, a change to guesting) it deserves, just like TA did.

as sankt said, if it's not broken don't fix it.

moreover, as much as you might like the new flux bs, it's not as good as you think it is. nor does it bring any special benefits to the game. quite the opposite, actually.