Curse

Killed u man · Jun 19, 2011, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Both these skills are likely to get hit again. Sadly, neither of these skills have ever seen much abuse up untill the big derv update. (Altough Frag spike in HA was a pretty well known gimmick)

It's safe to say that the root of the problem does not lie with these skills, but rather with a dervish' ability to poop conditions without even having to hit. (Aura of Thorns + Pious Fury = hello area dazed) As a result, dervs not only pump redicilous amounts of damage, most of their skills also interrupt all foes in the Area of their target, once Fevered is applied.

This is why teams oftentimes easily coop with a trip derv pressure build, but once the healer or prot gets Fevered on him, things go apeshit rather fast. Sig of Hum takes care of the RC and dazed takes care of the draw (the fact that a heal monk will be dazed after the first draw), as dazed gets reapplied within seconds.

I think they could, not that it's needed, rebuff fevered to 10 recharge, albeit with an adjecent range rather than area. Fragility could also go back to 5 recharge, though it wouldn't have much effect.

The problem with Fevered abuse can be described by a handfull of skills, them being:

-Avatar of Grenth
-Avatar of Balthazar
-Aura of Thorns
-Dust Cloak
-Rending Aura
-Staggering Force

These teardown enchantments combined with Avatars mean that dervishes can pump 2-3 conditions on demand almost non-stop.

Rather than nerfing the wrong skills time and time again, I would rather see Anet finally learn to nerf problem builds at their root. Obviously builds built around Fevered will always be degenerative (it's just how the skills works), doesn't change the fact that the abuse was very low to non-existant before the derv update...

Sk8tborderx · Jun 20, 2011, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Easy fixes for trip Derv, illusion Mesmer teams:
Change the AoE of flash enchantments from nearby to adjacent
Remove daze from Fevered Dreams (it didn't cause daze originally, yay dartboard buffs)
Smiters Boon Signet of Humility
Change Avatars to have an elemental damage type (Balth->fire, Grenth->cold, Lyssa->lightning)
Change vamp scythe mods from 5 to 3
Remove +damage from EDA

NOTE: These are all for PvP, so don't start mentioning PvE if replying to my post.

I Angra I · Jun 20, 2011, 02:54 AM // 02:54

I agree, Fevered and Fragility isn't the problem. Dervishes are what make them seem so powerful.

Bandwagon · Jun 20, 2011, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Easy fixes for trip Derv, illusion Mesmer teams:
Change the AoE of flash enchantments from nearby to adjacent
Remove daze from Fevered Dreams (it didn't cause daze originally, yay dartboard buffs)
Smiters Boon Signet of Humility
Change Avatars to have an elemental damage type (Balth->fire, Grenth->cold, Lyssa->lightning)
Change vamp scythe mods from 5 to 3
Remove +damage from EDA

NOTE: These are all for PvP, so don't start mentioning PvE if replying to my post.

BOLD: Conjures bro.
BOLD UNDERLINE: Agreed, but its hard to retroactively change item mods without the full live team's support.
UNDERLINED: the +damage is not the problem with Frag Spike. Dartboard nerfs are like dartboard buffs, unnecessary.

Jeydra · Jun 20, 2011, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

I agree, Fevered and Fragility isn't the problem. Dervishes are what make them seem so powerful.

July flux (Nerf Dervishes Already): if your opponents have more than one Dervish, your entire party gains +3 health regen.

Lol

But yeah I agree now that Dervishes are still overpowered. Avatars doing elemental damage is not a good idea however (Conjures), and I would oppose a hit to Signet of Humility as well. Sig Hum is so powerful because Monk elites are so powerful - I'd sooner nerf Monks than nerf Sig Hum. I would not change Fevered Dreams and Frustration and Fragility; it's Dervishes that break those skills.

Also one big problem with Dervishes is the AoE Scythe attacks. Two Knights balled on a Dervish = impossible to keep up. I don't know what can be done about that, though.

Sk8tborderx · Jun 20, 2011, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Conjures are not an issue with Avatars for the following reasons:
1. The good flash enchantments to fuel attack skills change elemental damage (no +damage on deep wound application)
2. They don't have room on their bar for it.
3. With the points required to make conjure worth it, they would end up gimping themselves.
4. If they still ran conjure, Spirit Bond would be a lot more effective against them.

I agree EDA doesn't help frag spike, but it is an overpowered skill for Dervishes.

fowlero · Jun 20, 2011, 09:57 AM // 09:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Rather than nerfing the wrong skills time and time again, I would rather see Anet finally learn to nerf problem builds at their root. Obviously builds built around Fevered will always be degenerative (it's just how the skills works), doesn't change the fact that the abuse was very low to non-existant before the derv update...

Oh we can wish

Do people think perhaps frustration could take a tone down too? I know it's not the root problem, but i feel that skill does far too much for it's cost. Upkeepable free rupts on 1 sec mesmer cast rapes your teams prots/weapons. Granted it wouldn't be such a problem if dervs weren't but idk.

Coast · Jun 20, 2011, 11:03 AM // 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Also one big problem with Dervishes is the AoE Scythe attacks. Two Knights balled on a Dervish = impossible to keep up. I don't know what can be done about that, though.

Removing their AoE Scythe attacks would fix that.
Avatars could make you deal some kind of physical dmg(blunt/piercing/slasing/melandru still earth).

kedde · Jun 20, 2011, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Making them deal slashing makes no sense at all since scythes already do that.

Killed u man · Jun 20, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Signet of Humility is once again seeing play in a degenerative build, true; but frankly the only times I see this skill hurt good teams is when their ranger is pooping interrupts, yet every cast on the mesmer goes through because of Mantra of Resolve/anti interrupt skills.

Anti interrupt skills have always been dangerous in GW. The truth is that if Mantra of Resolve/concetration makes it on a bar, the other skills on that bar are usually incredibly OP when they can't get shutdown. When you look at the bar, you'll find Fevered and Signet of Humility. -Also other spells, but FC makes them uninterruptable anyways-

I would rather like to see a downside to skills such as resolve or concentration than a nerf to Sig of HuM. Add a "you loose 20 energy each time you would've gotten interrupted, you take 150...100 damage if you reach 0 energy" to these skills, or something of the similar. Interrupting certain skills will atleast shut down the rest of the mesmer's bar -energy wise- and allow a ranger to severly punish a mesmer by doing 100 damage per interrupt that goes through.

Not directly related to Fevered/Frag:

- As for the conjures: You can already stack Conjure Frost on top of any avatar bar, look at Grenth's Fingers. I've been running a bar with Avatar of Grenth, Conjure Frost + Vamp scythe for +28 damage per attack (Which is redicilous) making up for about 90 damage crits on unarmored targets.

=> Changing the type to elemental will not change the meta for the worse, as a derv would have to spec into the respective elemental attribute AND skills such as staggering force will change the output damage type, rending the conjure useless.

Also, as has been posted on QQ: Dervishes pump earth damage most of the time. (Staggering)

- Tbh I don't see why avatars should change damage type. I know it comes from a lore perspective (Dwayana, balthaza: holy, Grenth: dark, ...) but there frankly was never any need to. Simply get rid of the damage type changer, so weaponswapping to elemental becomes a given for dervs hitting warriors.

- AoE scythe attacks: Scythes pump more damage than any other martial weapon. The AoE is unnecesary, as coast pointed out: just remove it for PvP or make the damage scale down when hitting multiple foes. (If you hit 2 foes: each attack does 40% less damage, if you hit 3 foes: each attack does 50% less damage)

superraptors · Jun 20, 2011, 01:11 PM // 13:11

you do realize mesmers can cancel there sig humility so your suggestion is flawed by a mile, and they do it already so the chances are you probably still won't get his sig.

if your going to nerf something you better obliterate because skills like that always find a way back into play, just look at last few updates hardly scratched derv usability, it should be smiters booned or shut down time down drastically lower then it is now if anything, but i dont really see a problem sig hum has been in almost all hex and condition builds for years, frankly its other overpowered skills that synergies so well with hum.

aoe scythe attacks, probably change it so that main target takes 100%, adjacent foes take 50% less damage that would tone it down abit imo.

Coast · Jun 20, 2011, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Making them deal slashing makes no sense at all since scythes already do that.

Well, then just remove them dealing their respective types of dmg they currently do so that shields will make u benefit versus them.

doomfodder · Jun 20, 2011, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Easy fixes for trip Derv, illusion Mesmer teams:
Change the AoE of flash enchantments from nearby to adjacent
Remove daze from Fevered Dreams (it didn't cause daze originally, yay dartboard buffs)
Smiters Boon Signet of Humility
Change Avatars to have an elemental damage type (Balth->fire, Grenth->cold, Lyssa->lightning)
Change vamp scythe mods from 5 to 3
Remove +damage from EDA

NOTE: These are all for PvP, so don't start mentioning PvE if replying to my post.

Wouldn't it just be more fun if ANET gave Paragon PvP only skills that were specifically designed for Anti-Derv? Like a 10A shout tied to leadership that ends ALL derv avatars in shout range. Or a song that works like vow of silence so that target derv can't activate any derv enchantments for 5 sec, or alternatively makes flash enchants take 1 sec to activate (so they can be rupted). At least then there would be some incentive to play paragons in PvP again

fowlero · Jun 20, 2011, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

Wouldn't it just be more fun if ANET gave Paragon PvP only skills that were specifically designed for Anti-Derv?

Personally, I think it would be funner to fix dervishes themselves.

Missing HB · Jun 20, 2011, 04:49 PM // 16:49

I completly agree with Borat. But the main problem with dervish for me is the ability to spam enchants too easily and without much thoughs involved, and thus leading to quite many jokes with those mesmer skills.... AoE is also a bit annoying, but that's only on burning isle in my opinion , where you can instantly slash rsgn....

On a side note : it would be nice if they reverted Melandru's Avatar to it's original function ( i guess it wouldn't be a matter if it wasn't maintanable)

floor · Jun 20, 2011, 06:07 PM // 18:07

for once, borats opening statement was possibly the most logical statement in this thread so far.

Dervishes are OP and do need nerfing, everyone knows this so no point harping on about it, but mantras are a joke. They serve no purpose that is beneficial for the game at all that i can see.

And whoever it was that says "doesnt matter cos mesmers will cancel their sig humility", ur right to a point, but its also true to say that rangers are not retarded, they can wait till nearer the end of a hum sig to rupt it etc, cos its a slow cast time. Then theres also the times u forget to cancel, dont bother to cancel, or anything else that causes u to get rupted. As a result, your lucky to have sig humility "active" for even half the time it is currently. And should it become an issue during a match, when monks call please camp sig hum, it can actually be done, at present the only real work able defence is complicate, and thats far from ideal. PD could be used i suppose, but that means you need to bring a dom mes > a dervish, which disadvantages u massively, and we're back to the initial argument.....

AndrewSX · Jun 20, 2011, 06:43 PM // 18:43

If Dervs weren't able to output 3 cond at sec, FD+Frag prolly wouldn't be SO abused.
Again, don't miss the target if you want to nerf, Anet.
But i think we'll see a FD change anyway. Recharge/cost/AoE size/Daze application or duration, IMO.