Curse

makosi · Jun 26, 2011, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Re-applying the same condition has the same effect as adding another one.
Balths pump out conditions faster than grenths.

That's nuts. Button mashing galore.

For me it's kinda reminiscent of the very old Zealot's Fire where you could roll your head on the keyboard and score a kill.

Infectious · Jun 26, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sk8tborderx

Daze isn't a moot point though really, at least not as long as it is ran with Frustration. I also don't see Frustration as the problem, the skill really isn't all that powerful without daze, OR sacrificing damage for interrupts.

Switching the skill to the Dom line would kill the skill more then just removing the Daze IMO.

Removing the daze would render it useless.
Dervs are the main problem with FD, fix this problem first before looking at the skill itself.

AndrewSX · Jun 26, 2011, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Unless Anet learned and is going to actually nerf what they should nerf to solve problems (y, they already toned down dervs, but they're still the train in pvp), i think we'll see a FD change anyway.
Higher cost/recharge, smaller area, no daze. One or 2 two of those modification imo.
But then we could say again "Well, Anet hitted the result of a problem, not his root....again".

Apok · Jun 26, 2011, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Flash Enchantments would be balanced if they didn't have an after-effect. This "applies all the conditions ever just for being near a target you can't even hit" bullshit is why Dervs are frowned upon. Might as well be running Contagionspike.

No one minded that much when they hit like a truck (warrior damage has been untouched for the past 5 years and remains to be one of the best DPS in the game) It was when Anet decided to treat the Derv class like it was this little baby that needed every broken mechanic possible aside from Shadowstepping to be playable.

Leave Mesmers and Necros and Rangers out of the mess. We all knew once the Dervs were able to be unblockable, un-KD-able, condition-spreading, high-armored trucks that this would happen. Warriors had to deal with only being able to KD and DPS targets while being constantly screwed by the enemy midline and backline for years. Why would it be a good idea to make a class that didn't have to deal with that bullcrap and only justifying it by saying "oh, but these guys have 10 less armor than Warriors!"?

Face it. Until Dervs get stripped of all their toys (Enchantments that have double-effects, cheap adrenaline attacks, pain-free IAS/IMS skills, anti-harass enchants), they will never be balanced.

Reverend Dr · Jun 26, 2011, 11:44 PM // 23:44

The fact that the application of daze is an auto interrupt is a problem.

Apok · Jun 27, 2011, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The fact that the application of daze is an auto interrupt is a problem.

But not THE problem.

Jeydra · Jun 27, 2011, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infectious

Dervs are the main problem with FD, fix this problem first before looking at the skill itself.

^

Changing FD before changing Dervs is just avoiding the problem. Do you think triple Derv with Blood Nec isn't overpowered either?

Reverend Dr · Jun 27, 2011, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok

But not THE problem.

Oh certainly not.

Fevered dreams is one of many skills that no matter what the numbers attached to the skill are, it is either going to never be used or used in some overpowered gimmick.

It is just against what the skill descriptions say that mere application of daze (not limited to just fevered dreams) is an interrupt.

kedde · Jun 27, 2011, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Oh certainly not.

Fevered dreams is one of many skills that no matter what the numbers attached to the skill are, it is either going to never be used or used in some overpowered gimmick.

It is just against what the skill descriptions say that mere application of daze (not limited to just fevered dreams) is an interrupt.

This is something I've said so many times, and it's so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing true. Skills should never do something their description doesn't say.

AndrewSX · Jun 27, 2011, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Skills should never do something their description doesn't say.

Well, actually isn't a description problem, is just that lot of peoples don't know this aspect of Daze....
From Wiki:

Quote:

Dazed will interrupt a spell being cast when it is applied, even without any damage being caused or any attack being made. The interrupt occurs even if the target was already dazed and the condition is re-applied.

If we want to stick with the idea of "Hit the root of problems" for balance, then we should consider OP the whole Daze mechanic in fact of rupting.
And maybe tone down it (personally i don't think that a so radical mechanic will be done, neither is wrong the condition by itself).

Sure, FD can spread it nicely, and a Derv can trigger FD multiple time w/o lose a inch of meele power, but is the combination of those factor (Daze too powerful? + FD too good at spread it? + Dervs too able to pump conds) which is creating this abuse.

Killed u man · Jun 27, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

You could nerf Fevered, which would solve the FD-problems, but you're still stuck with the Derv problem.

Also, to the people saying Fevered is the root of the problem in that build need to re-educate themselves on GW's mechanics and such. There is alot of things wrong with the build, but Fevered itself is not one of them, despite it being a gimmick skill that, in fact, will most likely only get used in gimmick builds.

The problem is the conditions dervishes can apply, especially when not even hitting a target. This essentially makes Pious Fury and Aura of Thorns area interrupts with 10 seconds recharge. Wearying becomes an area interrupt aswell.

To the people saying: "If you nerf dervish conditions, people will just run warriors" is bullshit, because then people would've done so (I would have anyways) way before the derv update. Even if a generic warrior template COULD apply the conditions needed (Dismember + axe rake, cripslash or dev hammer + crushing), one draw or RC will render the daze useless. Right now, dervishes can simply re-daze 2 seconds later, as I've pointed out, they can poop conditions every ~4 seconds. (Average between Aura of Thorns + Pious and Wearying + Staggering + Avatar) A warrior does not recharge adrenaline fast enough to keep daze on a target indefinatly, unless you start modding your intire build around it. (Infurating Heat, Weapon of Fury, ...) I don't think I have to point out why this wouldn't be condidered overpowered.

So no, Fevered isn't the problem, and as I've said in my other thread, they could even rebuff Fevered to it's old state, as long as Dervish conditions get nerfed.

The other problem(s) are the same old-same old. Hexstacking allowing mesmers to cover Fevered miles deep under Fragility, Shrinking Armor (Which also adds amazing synergy with Fevered), once again pointing out that the Hex-stacking mechanic in GW is trash, and hex removals should've had a "select hex option" since the start of Guild Wars.

Then there's also Signet of Humility once again showing it's true face, aswell as the anti-interrupt stances with no downside "upon interrupt", or atleast not severe enough.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jun 27, 2011, 03:15 PM // 15:15

I agree, Fevered is not the problem, dervishes are. Aura of Thorns + Wearying with Fevered pumps out the three of the strongest conditions in the game (deep wound, cripple, daze) in an aoe range. If that is not OP, I don't know what is.

ruk1a · Jun 27, 2011, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Knowing ANet, FD will become useless again and Dervs will remain the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Oh certainly not.

Fevered dreams is one of many skills that no matter what the numbers attached to the skill are, it is either going to never be used or used in some overpowered gimmick.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The fact that the application of daze is an auto interrupt is a problem.

I do agree with this though. It's not like anyone would care if FD was nerfed but it's obviously not the bigger picture here.

kedde · Jun 27, 2011, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Well, actually isn't a description problem, is just that lot of peoples don't know this aspect of Daze....
From Wiki:

If we want to stick with the idea of "Hit the root of problems" for balance, then we should consider OP the whole Daze mechanic in fact of rupting.
And maybe tone down it (personally i don't think that a so radical mechanic will be done, neither is wrong the condition by itself).

Sure, FD can spread it nicely, and a Derv can trigger FD multiple time w/o lose a inch of meele power, but is the combination of those factor (Daze too powerful? + FD too good at spread it? + Dervs too able to pump conds) which is creating this abuse.

It's not that we don't know, but if this was the intended use, it was retarded.
The point is that daze has basically always been either already applied through either an interrupt on its own or something which was so easy to counteract that it rarely mattered.
This is spammable with no effort at all, and is basically only the icing on the cake to add to that.

AndrewSX · Jun 28, 2011, 07:01 AM // 07:01

Daze is just the most powerful condition of the game for caster shutdown. I don't think this is a real problem, is the same of 6 years ago afaik.

The number and the rate that dervs condition can spam (like 3 in a second) w/o downsides/stop moving attack and FD ability to spread those plus daze while camping/shutting down the RC (hum sig anyone?) or whatever cond removal is the problem to adress.

Dervs are retarted, but daze, FD and hum sig aren't by themselves. Is combinig those with the first that make everything retarded but even more powerful.

tealspikes · Jun 30, 2011, 07:51 PM // 19:51

The reason the majority of dervish enchantments have low duration conditions rather than damage as their peel-off effect is because otherwise there would be large bursts of damage in conjunction with attack skills. Fragility circumvents this by almost literally converting each condition into damage (38 damage per cond @14). FD is like Fragility in that it converts the conditions into endless amounts of interrupts instead of damage, but same idea.

Regardless of whether you believe dervishes need to be removed or Frag/FD should be reworked instead, one thing is clear. Dervishes and Fragility cannot coexist. The concept of spamming extra damage with tear-downs is simply not balanced with how dervishes are designed.

One of these two functionalities (1. low duration condition spammer 2. convert spammed conditions into damage/interrupt) has to go.