Curse

floor · Aug 18, 2011, 08:58 AM // 08:58

I considered posting this on Teamquitter forums, but even though guru theoretically has less "serious" pvpers, u do seem to get more serious answers

Clearly A/P spike has been around for a while, and its pretty iritating. If there was a way to nerf this build how could you do it? The problem as far as i can see is that there isnt really any part of the build that stands out as being way over the top, and a multitude of small nerfs probably isnt really likely.

Now consider that even if skills like invoke were to be nerfed, there are so many ele skills that could take its place in order for the build to remain viable. And if spike mesmers got nerfed, people could just run a 4th ele and it wouldnt really change anything. There are so many possible bars that make this build function, nerfing the casters seems unlikely to make much difference.

I'd personally like to see the callers take a hit, the A/P and the rt/p bars. Either by nerfing the frequency that they can throw out a deep wound, or by nerfing their ability to spec into paragon skills in order to get fall back/incoming. Removing these party wide speed buffs would make it much more viable for other teams to try and force morale boosts, and make use of split tactics. At the moment it just seems like you can basically have taken 10 deaths and be totally DP'd out before you even have the chance to apply any pressure to them in 8v8, and your options to outsplit them are also massively reduced by the availability of party wide speed buffs :/

As far as i can tell, ur best chance of beating A/P spike presently is to just run A/P spike urself and try and spike them down before they can spike you down. Just seems incredibly degenerate.

Coast · Aug 18, 2011, 09:50 AM // 09:50

make incoming/fallback in leadership ( that will make a lot of people jelly tho)

Killed u man · Aug 18, 2011, 10:57 AM // 10:57

It's spikes in general being strong. If it's not A/P's, it's paragons. If it's not paragons it's D/A with shadowstep Wounding Strike, if it's not that, it's W/A's with augury and dismember.

Truth is that health bars in GW have always been a tad bit too low. (Or global damage to high, however you want it) If the base health was 550-600 instead of 480, that would've already made lots of changes.

Nerfing every single skill in that build (or even keyskills) will just make people run different stuff. You'dd have to change a large part of the skills in the game nowadays to prevent people from running some kind of ranged spike with lots of defence.

You can always tone down the build, simply be slightly lowering the numbers on the skills, but if you lower them too much, people will just run alternatives...

kedde · Aug 18, 2011, 11:06 AM // 11:06

Damage output is too high in the game.
If all damage, healing etc. lost 30% in effectiveness, they game would be so much more interesting and require far more coordination. Not going to happen though.
A quick fix to the spikes right now I can't really see.

*lemming* · Aug 18, 2011, 01:13 PM // 13:13

The A/P bar doesn't do that much damage on its own. I'm reasonably sure that any source of deep wound would be able to take its spot.

Would nerfing every 1s midline spike skill that does more than 80 damage really not work? Invoke, Mindshock, and Mirror are all really really dumb skills that never should have existed.

wilebill · Aug 18, 2011, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Kedde, your idea sounds good, but risks turning PvP into a summer camp pillow fight. The team that gets bored first loses. Raising either health or armor is a better idea IMHO, though if either of those gets too high, pillow fight time again.

urania · Aug 18, 2011, 01:33 PM // 13:33

bringing rend/gaze/strip for rt/p would help a bit, at least.

floor · Aug 18, 2011, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

The A/P bar doesn't do that much damage on its own. I'm reasonably sure that any source of deep wound would be able to take its spot.

Would nerfing every 1s midline spike skill that does more than 80 damage really not work? Invoke, Mindshock, and Mirror are all really really dumb skills that never should have existed.

I think your probably right, i actually hadnt rly thought about the fact that a lot of the big damage skills are 1s cast. Making them 2 would actually give monks a chance to see where the hell the spike was going.

Although i do still think the /P party wide speed buffs need a rethink, as they do basically allow for most retarded caster spike builds (A/P, invoke, blood etc) to just mario kart around the map on steroids making it virtually impossible to pull off any meaningful split tactics.

Fate Crusher · Aug 18, 2011, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Bleh... Wrote a massive wall of text (ok not that big, but big enough for me not to bother typing it again) only for my net to cut just when I pressed Post....

Basically: +1 to everything said, 6 year+ powercreep, Anet never tweaked basics - The disproportion of spike damage/frequency to basic health.

The fact that you should camp your shield set to save yourself from spike is understandable, but then to make it so that you need 7+ types of shields and only give you 4 weapon slots... Tbh, I don't mind - I'm used to this system already for years - but its just an example of how Anet ended up neglecting the powercreep and forced the playerbase to fend for themselves. Cheers.

PS I've also never agreed on how any serious monk needs q7/15AL shields. Fair PvP should be universal. Hmph.

Missing HB · Aug 18, 2011, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

Although i do still think the /P party wide speed buffs need a rethink, as they do basically allow for most retarded caster spike builds (A/P, invoke, blood etc) to just mario kart around the map on steroids making it virtually impossible to pull off any meaningful split tactics.

I completly agree with this... Upon the few GvG's i was able to do recently, we almost each time ended up dying in opponent base... and that's quite problematic on a few maps considering you just can't escape...
But well, for us it was mainly against invoke spike... bspike was never really a problem for us considering the low level of defense it has compared to other 2 ...

However, i don't think that nerfing /p only or even a/p will do anything considering it can easily be replaced like Killed U Man said... I agree with kedde post though , the game would need a global rework on damage output and then on defenses, but that's not going to happen...

*sarcasm on *.. maybe something should be done in mat finals so they decide to do something... the same that it happened in HB...

superraptors · Aug 19, 2011, 04:31 AM // 04:31

dont see problem, look at how many spike builds have been nerfed over the years, leaving this game with no variety left almost.

im actually quite sick of watching necro balanced and split builds.

but lightning skills should be hit with a 10% armor penetration only like what they did to sundering shot

kedde · Aug 19, 2011, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

I think your probably right, i actually hadnt rly thought about the fact that a lot of the big damage skills are 1s cast. Making them 2 would actually give monks a chance to see where the hell the spike was going.

Although i do still think the /P party wide speed buffs need a rethink, as they do basically allow for most retarded caster spike builds (A/P, invoke, blood etc) to just mario kart around the map on steroids making it virtually impossible to pull off any meaningful split tactics.

I'm just not so sure 2 sec casts will do all that much. Sure it'll make it easier to prot against, but if it's clean, people will still be instantly killed. The damage is just so high that it's an insant kill on anyone who doesn't have PS/SB on them. However, that's going to get stripped.
Noone really runs any shutdown anymore anyways. It's mostly limited to 2 rupts on a ranger that isn't always there, and a knockdown or two.

Add to that what you mentioned about Fallback/Incoming and maps like Jade or similar maps where splitting is just about impossible against competent teams. It's just a snorefest of who has the first clean spike.

Raw skill damage needs to be much lower, as does base armor from items. This makes it so pressure damage from degen and autoattacks is where the main damage comes from, not midline spike damage.

Fluffy Kittens · Aug 28, 2011, 11:04 AM // 11:04

either nerf the AoE of invoke and chen lightnin or increase the recharge time = problem solved

other spikes aint as powerful as this one is (and they're more difficult to play)