Curse

bitchbar player · Jun 09, 2011, 06:25 PM // 18:25

a ranger maybe?

ErrantVenture · Jun 09, 2011, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitchbar player

a ranger maybe?

At this point in the game rangers are relatively weak split chars. They get absolutely destroyed by necros and mesmers, and they're not nearly as durable in the enemy's base, let alone in pit agro.

tealspikes · Jun 09, 2011, 08:36 PM // 20:36

With a snare, blood necs are easily the best countersplit character in the game. A single blood necro with a monk behind him can quickly drop an entire split team if they aren't backed by a healer. There's a reason why byob became so unpopular after barbed necs went meta.

Killed u man · Jun 09, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

If you're talking about split bars, talk about split bars. Throw life transfer on the necro bar as elite and I would love to see an IoP mesmer solo the necro.

Since we're talking about full split bars anyways (cuz that's all IoP is):

You could throw plague sending on the necro for cripple removal, maybe even foul feast to support the other split character.

You got make the Necro go /A for dash, siphon speed and ddagger. You could go /Me for the big snares and maybe even illusion of haste (Necro has got 12 free attribute points to spend, as he doesn't need soul reaping on split.

For that matter, he could even go /R, take weaken knees as elite (which acts as a snare), take dshot and natural stride and still have a couple of free skill slots.

Truth is that the IoP mesmer barely kills a stand blood necro not defending his base (aka middle of the map scrimmage), a blood necro should never be in that position anyways, but rather be in base with knights and archers.

A modded blood necro bar dedicated to split will shit on a IoP necro. It will also shit alot harder and better on other bars in almost every, of not every, situation.

IoP looks good on paper, in reality, against any skilled player (and there lies the problem) you'll have a hard time scoring kills. The blood necro has about the same/more damage, a little bit less utility (but still enough) and way more survivability options allowing you to take more risks and end the game faster.

Conclusion: IoP isn't completely terrible at what it does, I never claimed it was (altough it's pretty bad), there is just far, far better alternatives.

Reverend Dr · Jun 10, 2011, 08:43 AM // 08:43

IoP looks good in play as well. It really does put pressure on very fast, as opposed to (insert other bar). As well it can keep decent pressure on as well as (insert other bar).

I mean trying to say that IoP isn't good as a solo or on a split is just absurd. To say it doesn't work as well as something else within an 8-man build is one thing, but to just say its bad (or less effective) in a split is a completely different thing.

Killed u man · Jun 10, 2011, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Depends what your definition of bad is. My definition is either: "Ineffective" or "alot worse than alternatives".

IoP is relatively ineffective as the last mAT has shown (I don't think a single kill has been made through the skill), but not completely. (They do have to react) A blood necro as I have explained does everything an IoP does and more. He can easily reach the 10 degen cap with no more than 2 skills, dark pact is big damage (About the same, or slightly more than IoP if you spam on recharge, which your regen allows you to do) and it's alot more stable.

The second you have to start messing around with interrupting and snaring (relying on bad positioning pretty much) you've entered that dynamic zone where the outcome depends on how good the player your facing is. (If he's shit, and doesn't fake he might die)

A blood necro has alot more leeway. You don't give your enemy a free heal when you got delayed for 1 second on your IoP, or even rupted (1.3 second cast says hi). As I pointed out before, there is so many factors that can mess up an IoP mesmer. A single warrior with shock could time his shock so that he gets the free heal at the end. (And there's nothing the mesmer can do, aside from rupt shock, which again brings us too skill vs skill)

I honestly can not see an IoP bar do something a modded split necro bar couldnt do better. I'm sure there is a handfull (out of a million) scenarios where IoP would be better, but for the majority, especially against skilled opponents, a split necro would be better.

And the arguement that keeps comming back is: "But they have to react, so the bar is doing it's job" is complete bullshit. They have to react for every split bar, regardless of what it is. The matter of fact is that IoP is only good at that, forcing the enemy to react. When it comes down to taking down NPC's, taking down players or offering superiour movement control (I'm thinking permanent -66% immune to removal, old water ele), IoP doesn't excel at any of those compared to other bars.

Also, on top of all this, a blood necro is alot better in the occasional stand fight. Dark Pact for -some- added spike damage, degen skills for the overal degen, utility... is utility...

An IoP doesn't offer that much. An interrupt and a skill which against a good team will only feed cure hex (an already redicilously strong hex removal) to make a 250 heal.

*lemming* · Jun 10, 2011, 11:06 AM // 11:06

For once, I'd like a thread to not turn into Borat trying to assert his intellectual superiority by theorycrafting about a format that he doesn't play in a thread that initially had absolutely nothing to do with what he's talking about.

Seriously.

Also, *ridiculously.

Killed u man · Jun 10, 2011, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

For once, I'd like a thread to not turn into Borat trying to assert his intellectual superiority by theorycrafting about a format that he doesn't play in a thread that initially had absolutely nothing to do with what he's talking about.

Seriously.

Also, *ridiculously.

For once, I'dd love the mods here to do their job, and lock a thread with such a vague concept of content before it gets offtracked. Read the OP and tell me not everyone with an IQ above 90 would have realized this was going to end up discussing meta bars.

Also love how you're using this as another scapegoat to get me. Not floor, not Reverend, not anyone else but me. Scroll through the thread, I'm not the first one to derail this thread.

I wish I could post with more respect, but if you can't find any towards me, I have a hard time finding any towards you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias

Also, first reply in this thread is already complete off topic:

Quote:

Yes, RA is not identical to GvG. We even have a thread for it.

If you're suggesting an actual gvg/ha team, try providing that instead of a single isolated random build. Then figure out what draw/RC does to daze.

Jeydra · Jun 10, 2011, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I challenged Borat to a 1v1. This is what happened.

He insisted on running a "split specced Necro" with something like this: Dark Pact, Life Siphon, Life Transfer, Kitah's Burden, Leech Signet, Ether Feast, Accumulated Pain, didn't notice the last skill. It's not Illusion of Haste though; it's a split Necro with no speed boost.

I ran WoH because I can't interrupt to save my life, but this showcases IoP Mesmer versatility (whatever happened to Illusion Mesmers running WoH anyway?).

We fought for 9 minutes to a draw, then I /resigned. He said later I left just before I died, except of course he's already had 9 minutes to kill me and never managed, even with my reflexes being so bad I can't Cure Hex on Life Transfer cast (didn't have 40/40 Healing set, too). I believe I could've killed him if I brought a high set; he stayed alive at the start only because I couldn't renew IoP without energy. He claimed a full spec on my part, although of course if I did go for a full spec I would have Hex Breaker instead of Distortion.

After that he refused to play 1v1 with standard bars (PI on my part, SoS on his), as well as refused to replay the 1v1 with original bars (I was going to give him 28 minutes to kill me, but w/e).

gg Borat, I love you.

@thread - incidentally, this is why the meta is the way it is. Borat's bar has its strengths (Life Transfer is extremely strong 1v1), but it also gives up a lot. The bar is very weak at the stand, has no speedboost, is vulnerable to Archer Cripple and will die to physical damage. I seriously doubt any guild worth its salt will run it in pure form. Life Transfer Nec in modified form (with speedboost), maaaaaaybe. This exact bar? No way.

Killed u man · Jun 10, 2011, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Jeydra, when reading your stuff on the forums, I always assumed you were a top 200 GvG'er who started playing a couple of months ago and was relatively new to GW's mechanics. Now that I've met you in-game (with you being under the cloak of anonimity), I take back everything I've ever said to you.

I have not seen many people act as childish as you did after taking a loss like that, on top of the fact you cheated.

As far as I'm concerned, my claims have been solidified by proving my bar can beat a specced (WoH and cure, wtf) IoP bar. I would roll over any IoP with only ether feast, and unlike your bar, I will be able to take down flaggers and prot monks. Something I would love to see your bar, with only IoP and a DW ,not even an interrupt, do.

Also, my bar is trash at stand? I hope you realize the bleeding of the necro only feeds RC. Since this bar is based around a split-team build, you most likely won't have conditions outside of DW and blind at main. This bar would apply way more pressure than your standard suffering bar, as you wouldn't be throwing free 70 heals at the enemy prot Monk.

You have much to learn.

Reverend Dr · Jun 10, 2011, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Silly girl fight gets kicked off of QQ? Take it to Guru!

*lemming* · Jun 10, 2011, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Too much to ask for, I guess.

Jeydra · Jun 13, 2011, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Lemming I got a question:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

whatever happened to Illusion Mesmers running WoH anyway?

WoH + Cure would've stopped WHAT from losing four players after time in the last mAT finals, no?

pinkeyflower · Jun 13, 2011, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Hindsight everything is 20/20?

ErrantVenture · Jun 13, 2011, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lemming I got a question:

WoH + Cure would've stopped WHAT from losing four players after time in the last mAT finals, no?

WoH + cure gives up a lot of utility (PI and a snare usually) when most of the time your split team will have plenty of healing via heal breeze or the flagger coming on split. In that particular situation it might have been more useful i guess but in general people will take more utility.

Jeydra · Jun 13, 2011, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Can't the Mes just lost Ether Feast + whatever elite you're using for WoH + Cure (which is what I did vs Borat anyway)? If the Mesmer really needs an interrupt, can't he also lose Accumulated Pain for one?

Cure itself is utility (vs. hex-based snares, with Ethereal Burden on N/Me's and Water Eles being quite common too), and besides the Blood Necro is a fairly common template that happens to pwn Healing Breeze, I don't see how one can rely on that for healing.

Terrible Surgeon · Jun 15, 2011, 06:07 AM // 06:07

This thread was created to encourage creativity in personal builds and team builds rather than accepting the meta bars as being the "only" bars to run.

The discussion between Borat and Floor was interesting in that it showed differences in their opinions about builds. I do believe differences such as those result in meta breaking. ffs close the thread its way off topic and its not about to get rerailed.

ErrantVenture · Jun 15, 2011, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Can't the Mes just lost Ether Feast + whatever elite you're using for WoH + Cure (which is what I did vs Borat anyway)? If the Mesmer really needs an interrupt, can't he also lose Accumulated Pain for one?

Cure itself is utility (vs. hex-based snares, with Ethereal Burden on N/Me's and Water Eles being quite common too), and besides the Blood Necro is a fairly common template that happens to pwn Healing Breeze, I don't see how one can rely on that for healing.

Well for starters you can't give up DW on that mes bar. The 20% reduction in healing is real important when it comes to pushing flaggers.

Secondly, if there's a necro back there's almost certainly a rit (and possibly a prot too) back at base so you're not going to be able to push npcs too heavily anyway. Basically, if they drop a necro back it makes way more sense to collapse back to stand (you have a massive movement advantage) and then resplit once you've done some work at stand. In that scenario you don't NEED a lot of healing. You just need a bit of spot healing to keep you up while you fall out of the base and aura/heal breeze or ehter feast does that just fine.

Master Ketsu · Jun 15, 2011, 11:57 PM // 23:57

There have been times when I have discovered builds three weeks to two months before they became meta.

Each and every time I recommended them to random people in HA. Each and every time those random people called me a nub for not following meta. In some cases I saw those exact same players using the build once it became accepted. They had a convenient case of amnesia.

And that pretty much describes %99.9 of all players that call any non meta build bad.

The sad truth is a lot of players are very very bad at understanding a builds functionality and intended strategy by looking at it. And the ratio of players who are good at being able to discern such a thing does not change when going from the high ranked PvP community and casual PvE community. It is a skill separate from being good at the game, a talent that is very underrated and one that some people who are otherwise great players gameplay wise are colossally terribad at.

I once saw someone ( a female guildy ) get kicked from an HA team because the R12 leader of the group thought she was using the wrong build. She was using the build he pinged her to use that the team leader got off wiki. The difference? She had rearranged the skills on her bar. In other words: Simply by rearranging the skill numbers on her bar, this high-ranked supposedly-good player was unable to comprehend that it was the EXACT SAME FRIGGIN BUILD. And the icing on the cake? I have seen this happen multiple times.

ErrantVenture · Jun 16, 2011, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

There have been times when I have discovered builds three weeks to two months before they became meta.

Each and every time I recommended them to random people in HA. Each and every time those random people called me a nub for not following meta. In some cases I saw those exact same players using the build once it became accepted. They had a convenient case of amnesia.

And that pretty much describes %99.9 of all players that call any non meta build bad.

The sad truth is a lot of players are very very bad at understanding a builds functionality and intended strategy by looking at it. And the ratio of players who are good at being able to discern such a thing does not change when going from the high ranked PvP community and casual PvE community. It is a skill separate from being good at the game, a talent that is very underrated and one that some people who are otherwise great players gameplay wise are colossally terribad at.

I once saw someone ( a female guildy ) get kicked from an HA team because the R12 leader of the group thought she was using the wrong build. She was using the build he pinged her to use that the team leader got off wiki. The difference? She had rearranged the skills on her bar. In other words: Simply by rearranging the skill numbers on her bar, this high-ranked supposedly-good player was unable to comprehend that it was the EXACT SAME FRIGGIN BUILD. And the icing on the cake? I have seen this happen multiple times.

Should know by now that rank means shit when it comes to assessing a player's technical ability. All rank signifies is the amount of time a player has invested in an arena.