Curse

motivade · May 24, 2011, 03:22 PM // 15:22

imho the pvp game would be better if anet would be able to make each single attribute line be worth using.
This seems to be a huge amount of work, but I feel like anet spend most of their balancing efforts on changing the overpowered skills instead of buffing some of the really unplayable skills to create a working rock-paper-scissors basis (which was the original idea in my opinion).
And if you have more possible skills to choose from, you can be more creative.

Reverend Dr · May 24, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by motivade

imho the pvp game would be better if anet would be able to make each single attribute line be worth using.

This idea has been a contributor to powercreep. It has allowed far more 2 attribute builds rather than 3-4 attributes being standard. For example water hexes have been constant in really every meta, but in the old days those characters had to spec into 3-4 attributes and now they really only need 2. The same water skills are now stronger simply because the characters running them can spec higher into water magic than they could in the past.

Jeydra · May 25, 2011, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

This idea has been a contributor to powercreep. It has allowed far more 2 attribute builds rather than 3-4 attributes being standard. For example water hexes have been constant in really every meta, but in the old days those characters had to spec into 3-4 attributes and now they really only need 2. The same water skills are now stronger simply because the characters running them can spec higher into water magic than they could in the past.

So the exact same build that used to be run with 3-4 attributes is now run with 2 attributes, and you attribute that to power creep?

Seems like a logical inconsistency to me, and not mentioning the Superior rune use in the past ...

Terrible Surgeon · May 25, 2011, 05:32 AM // 05:32

IDC anymore, if anet is too stupid to figure out how to make the game balanced then that explains why GW2 is going to have set bars and very little player involvement in build creation. I guess that answers my question as to why GW has always had balance issues. Stupid programmers...

OP classes killed build creativity in GW because everyone wants to have BIG damage and face rolling a keyboard to win is a good thing. Skill is over rated anyway.

I guess players who want to have fun run non-meta mostly now anyway. The build rawr ran in last months MAT is not what i call meta because you never see it being run anymore. Its an effective build that requires skilled players in comparison to cast on RC dervs. I think that says it all. GvG is dumbied down and so is HA now. Roll face for fame and trim. Its not the players fault, they are just using what they are given. Want to win? Run the META better than the other guy.

Dirame · May 25, 2011, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

IDC anymore, if anet is too stupid to figure out how to make the game balanced then that explains why GW2 is going to have set bars and very little player involvement in build creation. I guess that answers my question as to why GW has always had balance issues. Stupid programmers...

OP classes killed build creativity in GW because everyone wants to have BIG damage and face rolling a keyboard to win is a good thing. Skill is over rated anyway.

I guess players who want to have fun run non-meta mostly now anyway. The build rawr ran in last months MAT is not what i call meta because you never see it being run anymore. Its an effective build that requires skilled players in comparison to cast on RC dervs. I think that says it all. GvG is dumbied down and so is HA now. Roll face for fame and trim. Its not the players fault, they are just using what they are given. Want to win? Run the META better than the other guy.

Basically what you're saying is; "Anet please bring Codex Arena to HA and GvG because running these generic builds is getting pretty boring now."

If that is what you're saying then; http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/ima...tizen_cane.gif

Missing HB · May 25, 2011, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirame

Basically what you're saying is; "Anet please bring Codex Arena to HA and GvG because running these generic builds is getting pretty boring now."

I'm not disagreeing with that concerning GvG to be honest... It would at least do something really instead of that flux stuff...( a few days ago , i was wondering if flux was really working , as i noticed in some formats that i wasn't really dealing more damage....; even if it does a few more damage , that's all , builds did not change....)

For HA it wouldn't really work on last maps concerning terrible flaws such as 1v1 fights

motivade · May 25, 2011, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

It has allowed far more 2 attribute builds rather than 3-4 attributes being standard.

youre sure? if every attribute would be as strong as water magic (or as weak as motivation), wouldnt you rather use more attributes?

kedde · May 25, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

So the exact same build that used to be run with 3-4 attributes is now run with 2 attributes, and you attribute that to power creep?

Seems like a logical inconsistency to me, and not mentioning the Superior rune use in the past ...

Really? Because it's pretty damn logical. You now need fewer skills to do the same because they're all either stronger or replaced by new skills that allow you to fulfill the same roles as 6 years ago, but with much fewer skills.

Why is it so difficult for this community to understand that if skill effects do less, the player himself will be required to do more which is desirable. I don't get it.

Reverend Dr · May 25, 2011, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by motivade

youre sure? if every attribute would be as strong as water magic (or as weak as motivation), wouldnt you rather use more attributes?

Would you rather use a bar full of skills specced at 8-10 or a bar full of skills specced at 12+1?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Seems like a logical inconsistency to me, and not mentioning the Superior rune use in the past ...

You mean superior rune use on pve characters because they could freely swap headgear at the time? Because everyone I knew that was running pvp characters only used minor runes. And this was 2005.

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Really? Because it's pretty damn logical. You now need fewer skills to do the same because they're all either stronger or replaced by new skills that allow you to fulfill the same roles as 6 years ago, but with much fewer skills.

Why is it so difficult for this community to understand that if skill effects do less, the player himself will be required to do more which is desirable. I don't get it.

Then power creep has occured because the skills have been improved, not because players started using two attributes instead of 3-4. "The same water skills are now stronger simply because the characters running them can spec higher into water magic than they could in the past." Really?

Why is it so difficult for some people to spot logical inconsistencies? I don't get it.

deathy · May 26, 2011, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Then power creep has occured because the skills have been improved, not because players started using two attributes instead of 3-4. "The same water skills are now stronger simply because the characters running them can spec higher into water magic than they could in the past." Really?

Why is it so difficult for some people to spot logical inconsistencies? I don't get it.

The subtle argument here is that the numbers themselves are balanced, and compared skill to skill they are balanced. But as water magic has incorporated aspects that were previously only obtainable through other attribute lines, namely damage, it allows you to specialise in fewer attributes, and thus have more powerful skills. The skills themselves haven't had power creep, it's the attribute line that has.

Reverend Dr · May 26, 2011, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Because a skill at 12 attribute points is more powerful than a skill at 8?

Before factions and nightfall added more skills to an attribute line you had to venture into multiple attribute lines which would not allow for near constant 12+ specced attributes that we see currently.

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Maybe, but how is that relevant to "imho the pvp game would be better if anet would be able to make each single attribute line be worth using"?

PS: Heal Monks go quadspec quite regularly yet most still run at 12 Healing Prayers, don't get it.

Terrible Surgeon · May 26, 2011, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Maybe, but how is that relevant to "imho the pvp game would be better if anet would be able to make each single attribute line be worth using"?

PS: Heal Monks go quadspec quite regularly yet most still run at 12 Healing Prayers, don't get it.

Monks became an integral part of any team that wants to win in PvP. As a result they adapted far more than most classes just to survive the constant barrage of dmg that comes at them in a match. Good monks need to have 4 specs in a build or they die easier. ANYWAY, because monks are always on a team, they carry more complicated builds than say a face rolling derv. If any class needs updated its the monk imho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirame

Basically what you're saying is; "Anet please bring Codex Arena to HA and GvG because running these generic builds is getting pretty boring now."

If that is what you're saying then; http://assets0.ordienetworks.com/ima...tizen_cane.gif

no, im just asking Anet to make every class equal in pvp. Every class should have the chance to compete. That should never be argued against. If that was the case, you would see just as many paragons as dervishes as warriors as rangers as monks.

Power creep etc. does decide what the current meta is. Players can still be creative with builds and be effective with non-meta. It is my belief they don't try to do so and end up playing stale meta until the next class update. I just want to see players bring their own build creations out be it in RA or GvG. I also would like to see anet add real balance to the classes instead of making one class OP as hell then nerf it. That has been the cycle forever. You cant balance a game one class at a time.

Missing HB · May 26, 2011, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Power creep etc. does decide what the current meta is. Players can still be creative with builds and be effective with non-meta.

Problem is that apart of RA ( eventually JQ/FA , but they're not really representative) you can't really test out builds due to people who only want to win. Creating a good build requires a lot of practice and that's something many players can't afford anymore....

You can easily test spikes in isle of nameless thanks to heroes , but that's probably the only thing you can do...

Reverend Dr · May 26, 2011, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: Heal Monks go quadspec quite regularly yet most still run at 12 Healing Prayers, don't get it.

This is a silly retort that you took out of context that I shall in turn take out of context, because fare is fare.

Monks have always specced into multiple attribute lines. I also like how you picked "heal monks" as prot monks spec into less.

Bsurge is air, energy storage, and... MoI/Waterwhatever is water, energy storage and.... warriors are weapon, strength, and... Rits are spawning, resto, and...

I suppose monks and rangers (maybe some more, any further additions doesn't change my point), have had larger attribute spreads. But warriors went from weapon/str/tactics/air to 2 point, every old elementalist had 4 attributes and now 2 is common, old rit runners would have at least 3 often 4, now its just 2. When you can make enough skills for a bar from 1 attribute line + primary attribute instead of multiple attribute lines, the same damn skills are going to be more powerful.

But Jeydra is deliberately being a moron. That is how he posts. I don't know what point he is trying to make, or really how he is trying to make that point (at least from a meta standpoint).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Maybe, but how is that relevant to "imho the pvp game would be better if anet would be able to make each single attribute line be worth using"?

Maybe it is semantics, but to me "single attribute line be worth using" says all of your skills are coming from one attribute line. Which to me says 12+1+1 and 12+1 primary.

If you mean "some" skills of an attribute line are worth bringing "at times" or "depending upon build" I could agree to that. But only as an idealistic goal that should be approached only when the game is in a good state of balance.

Game ain't balanced bra.

Also "some" skills of just about every attribute line are worth bringing "at times" or "depending upon build".

Jeydra · May 26, 2011, 09:26 AM // 09:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend_Dr

Maybe it is semantics, but to me "single attribute line be worth using" says all of your skills are coming from one attribute line. Which to me says 12+1+1 and 12+1 primary.

Then you are being a moron. "EACH single attribute line worth using" means it is possible to build around every single attribute line. Examples of lines worth using right now: Water, Fire. Examples of lines not worth using right now: Communing, Motivation.

This has no relation to whether a build specs four lines, or two.

Any questions?

@Missing HB - you definitely can test builds out in RA; nobody can stop you from hitting "enter battle". The meta is the way it is because non-meta builds are in general less effective. This isn't to say it isn't possible to come up with some new non-meta build that is more effective; it's just not likely because so many options have already been explored.

Consider chess as an analogy. White making e4 as the first move is common and arguably the "meta" (although there are lots of other viable first moves). That doesn't mean you can't play f4 as the first move. You can, it's just (usually) less effective. You might be able to come up with some powerful new idea that includes f4 as the first move. But the chances of most new ideas being that good are very small.

That's the meta in GW. There's a further constraint about testing new builds in GvG, and that's because GvG matches take a while to organize and play out (>20 minutes, usually, especially if it's a tournament). It's not just you in a GvG match; you have 7 other people who must all be willing for you to run the non-meta build. Since each match takes so long, people are less willing to experiment. If you're convinced your new build is good you can usually persuade your friends to let you try it a few times, especially on non-significant matches like ladder, but if they have more authority / experience / etc than you, you can't expect to overrule them.

If you REALLY have a non-meta build you are convinced is great but nobody lets you use it, try to run it in byob.

motivade · May 26, 2011, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

"EACH single attribute line worth using" means it is possible to build around every single attribute line. Examples of lines worth using right now: Water, Fire. Examples of lines not worth using right now: Communing, Motivation.

thats what i meant, sry for my english :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

Every class should have the chance to compete.

word!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Would you rather use a bar full of skills specced at 8-10 or a bar full of skills specced at 12+1?

i want to run a split build for gvg. now what?

how much should attr progression affect the skills effect? (empathic removal etc)
how many effects should an attribute line have? (resto <> prot + heal? // Reverends example)
should the profession be an important factor for skill balancing? (antidote signet <> remedy signet)

superraptors · May 26, 2011, 04:35 PM // 16:35

yep every class and skill should be usable and compete, it has not been the case since the beginning of time of gw.

if this game was balanced it would be like playing chess tbh though, everything would be/get stale.

although i think every attribute should have some sort of power creep to compete with.

wuzzman · May 28, 2011, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

IDC anymore, if anet is too stupid to figure out how to make the game balanced then that explains why GW2 is going to have set bars and very little player involvement in build creation. I guess that answers my question as to why GW has always had balance issues. Stupid programmers...

OP classes killed build creativity in GW because everyone wants to have BIG damage and face rolling a keyboard to win is a good thing. Skill is over rated anyway.

I guess players who want to have fun run non-meta mostly now anyway. The build rawr ran in last months MAT is not what i call meta because you never see it being run anymore. Its an effective build that requires skilled players in comparison to cast on RC dervs. I think that says it all. GvG is dumbied down and so is HA now. Roll face for fame and trim. Its not the players fault, they are just using what they are given. Want to win? Run the META better than the other guy.

Lolz such little way of viewing things. There is no "OP" classes in guild wars, what killed build creativity is anet ban hammering everything down to the point that your funneled into 1 or 2 directions. Removing build creativity in guild wars 2 revolves around 2 mind sets - 1. players are stupid, 2. the most vocal of the "top tier" pvp'ers will rather people mash into each other with the exact same skills, effectively turning guild wars into counter strike with spell cooldowns.

Ironically this is what drives most of the playerbase away from pvp at the gvg level, pvp in the old days was about the twitch elements vs the strategic elements, bringing a different build was just apart of the game as interupting 1/4 cast times. Now its all twitch and execution rather than strategy and deck building. Not surprising ArenaNet has 1 "organized" pvp arena in Guild Wars 2, the rest of pvp is just AB/RA wasteland.