Curse

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 28, 2011, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Meta rules in PvP. Cut and paste then practice and see who runs it the best tends to be the name of the game. It kills the creativity of making builds and makes the game dull as hell imho.

What happens if you fail to follow the META? Repercussions for failing to follow META do exist. You will be left behind in HA, your team will leave in RA, and forget about doing any GvG.

However, there are still a lot of undiscovered builds left in the game. They may have been discovered and forgotten or they may be similar to a current META build.

QUESTION: What is your favorite NoN-META build to play?

-After the derv update i made a sin build

Jagged,temple strike,fox fangs,critical strike and the other 4 slots are optional. I use frenzy/dash and crit defense if im in RA. Other arenas i use OTHER skills. But the combo was borrowed from the old coward sin build.

Anyway, share a build you like to use and actually works well but others shun because they are afraid of creativity.

FoxBat · Apr 28, 2011, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Yes, RA is not identical to GvG. We even have a thread for it.

If you're suggesting an actual gvg/ha team, try providing that instead of a single isolated random build. Then figure out what draw/RC does to daze.

Elnino · Apr 28, 2011, 07:03 AM // 07:03

my favourite non-meta build?

Flurry/Frenzy, Leaping mantis, exhausting assault, moebius, horns, death blossom, dash, optional (usually wild blow)

I've always loved spamming horns of the ox.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Yes, RA is not identical to GvG. We even have a thread for it.

If you're suggesting an actual gvg/ha team, try providing that instead of a single isolated random build. Then figure out what draw/RC does to daze.

Puts daze on the monk

You're absolutely right though.

*lemming* · Apr 28, 2011, 07:07 AM // 07:07

All meta bars began as rogue builds. It's only through demonstrated success that they become meta.

Spiritz · Apr 28, 2011, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Ive not done pvp for over 2 yrs but i will say i dont seem to recall in the days when i did - the words meta builds being used.Players tended to use diff builds and often teams in ab were really mixed up and pvx never even had the words meta on any pages - unlike now.
The thing that i dislike about "meta builds" is it removes the diversity that used to make some pvp enjoyable - a gd mish mash of builds on players rather than worry what meta builds ( hopefully all diff rather than the same ) the kurz ( or lux ) are going to use.
A gd example i can recall is once for a while it seemed that necro mm's were the biz and several matches it was your side vs the kurz amada of mm's with minions and no way was it being fun - kurz just decided to mob and build an army then spend the match just wiping everyone.Soon after it got even more daft when both sides consisted of more than 6 mm`s.
Diversity is what makes it enjoyable because you couldnt be prepared properly for what other side had on their bars.

Missing HB · Apr 28, 2011, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Well i don't agree totally with OP since it depends of the meta... There were metas that could be easily handled , but yes today the game has became into a meta( bbwars ,dervishs more recently) where a non-meta build has very few chances to win...

Lack of good updates on right time is mostly responsible...

An interesting consequence of all this though is people's behaviour who instantly refuse to play any non-meta build whether it's in GvG , HA or even players raging in RA like you said....I got plenty of builds that , i'm sure ,are as good as dervishs for HA but it's simply pointless to find players for it since everyone only wants dervishs.....

HB/CA favorised non-meta builds and plays , see what are their state today.....

awry · Apr 28, 2011, 08:23 AM // 08:23

meta=that bar that just killed me. Therefore if u come up with a gimmick that works it is no longer a gimmick and becomes meta. You kill the monster u become the monster.

urania · Apr 28, 2011, 10:25 AM // 10:25

if you wanna be creative, CA is the best place to go to.

Fate Crusher · Apr 28, 2011, 11:45 AM // 11:45

The "meta" has always been thrown around since day one. It might not have been so obvious because of the casual powercreep of most skills meant that before there were several options to choose from in order to "counter" meta builds or even just to run something unique.

Was once called Flavour of the Month as well, since Anet was regularly "balancing" but creating meta shifts.

My favourite non-meta build? In HA: We exploited an overlooked skill, Expert's Dexterity. Coupled with Keen Arrow and other skills, it made a very deadly 2-man spike. So we threw in a Derv for Wounding Strike spam (this must have been 2 years ago) and it basically became a balance but with 2 rangers. The build created a lot of annoyance in the guild because we were an honor balance. But we were so active at the time, we formed two WoTU teams; 1 balanced and this one. We eventually bumped into each other at Golden Gates, rolled the balanced team in 3 minutes and carried on to hold halls with full runs.

... And then Expert's was used for full Ranger spike and was thereafter Nerfed... sad.

Bristlebane · Apr 28, 2011, 12:09 PM // 12:09

You should start a leet PvP movement where you reject all people running meta, calling them pvx noobs lol.

ok wasn't too serious suggestion, a bit hinting at how everyone not running meta today tends to be rejected and called noob

floor · Apr 28, 2011, 12:54 PM // 12:54

meta bars generally become meta because the bars tick several boxes:
*Good energy management
*Good at their desired job.
*benefit the team as a whole.

In a 6 year old game, you might make a build that you think looks good, chances are ten thousand people already tried it and discarded it because a mind blast fire ele is just better in every way. What people often dont realise is that meta is not the "only" bars you can use, but they are the "best" bars available. If you play the game competitively and you are truly focussed on winning, running a below-par build is not helping you to achieve that which is why all top tier GvG and HA matches, every team is pretty much using the same build. At this level players are so good that if you do not run the best build available, but the other team is using it, you stand no chance at all and you just lose, repeatedly.

People will argue saying i ran this super awesome bar i made in RA and it was great. Now think to yourself, in RA 75% of teams have no healing, so just die eventually to ANY build, it is also only a 4v4 arena and not 8v8, it is entirely random with no team organisation. So your bar might seem good but in a serious pvp format it more than likely does not benefit your team on a party wide scale as much a blood necro for example. Therefore blood necros are meta, and stuff like ride the lightning eles with shock (as seen dailly in RA) are not.

tl;dr: META is not the only option, but if you take guilds wars seriously and play primarily to win, (lets be honest who likes losing), meta bars are the BEST option.

Ariena Najea · Apr 28, 2011, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

meta bars generally become meta because the bars tick several boxes:
*Good energy management
*Good at their desired job.
*benefit the team as a whole.

In a 6 year old game, you might make a build that you think looks good, chances are ten thousand people already tried it and discarded it because a mind blast fire ele is just better in every way. What people often dont realise is that meta is not the "only" bars you can use, but they are the "best" bars available. If you play the game competitively and you are truly focussed on winning, running a below-par build is not helping you to achieve that which is why all top tier GvG and HA matches, every team is pretty much using the same build. At this level players are so good that if you do not run the best build available, but the other team is using it, you stand no chance at all and you just lose, repeatedly.

People will argue saying i ran this super awesome bar i made in RA and it was great. Now think to yourself, in RA 75% of teams have no healing, so just die eventually to ANY build, it is also only a 4v4 arena and not 8v8, it is entirely random with no team organisation. So your bar might seem good but in a serious pvp format it more than likely does not benefit your team on a party wide scale as much a blood necro for example. Therefore blood necros are meta, and stuff like ride the lightning eles with shock (as seen dailly in RA) are not.

tl;dr: META is not the only option, but if you take guilds wars seriously and play primarily to win, (lets be honest who likes losing), meta bars are the BEST option.

I'm not sure that "best" is the right word here. If the meta bars at any given time were the "best", there would never be changes outside of skill updates. It is more reasonable to label the meta as "effective".

KotCR · Apr 28, 2011, 01:50 PM // 13:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

if you wanna be creative, CA is the best place to go to.

Too bad nobody plays it (else I'd be there all the time), because the majority of the playerbase are actually terribly uncreative and awful at making builds, and are only able to play well with a Meta. Thats why I think it was so unpopular, too hard for people who don't truly understand the game to get wins in.

Krill · Apr 28, 2011, 03:08 PM // 15:08

RA meta, if there is such a thing is always reduced to the lowest common denominator. A mind blast ele or derv is almost impossible to mess up to the point where it's not effective. Of course there is always room to tweak builds to the meta or just play the meta bars better, but you're never going to find the silver bullet that nobody thought of that works well in every possible situation. Not to kill your dreams but sins with crit defense that do nothing but pump damage c-spacing / linebacking are not a new concept in RA.

The other day I thought a N/P spear chucker (barbed spear, maiming, stunning strike, mark of fury, oppressive gaze, can't remember what else) would be completely amazing but it was a giant piece of crap. Coolest story I've had in awhile.

Jeydra · Apr 28, 2011, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by floor

People will argue saying i ran this super awesome bar i made in RA and it was great. Now think to yourself, in RA 75% of teams have no healing, so just die eventually to ANY build, it is also only a 4v4 arena and not 8v8, it is entirely random with no team organisation. So your bar might seem good but in a serious pvp format it more than likely does not benefit your team on a party wide scale as much a blood necro for example. Therefore blood necros are meta, and stuff like ride the lightning eles with shock (as seen dailly in RA) are not.

Disagree - if you're alert and attentive to what you're actually accomplishing in RA, you can use it as a testbed for other arenas definitely. Example: you can immediately reject using Arcane Echo + Glimmering Mark for "big pressure" just by trying it in RA. Sure you can win games with Arcane Echo + Glimmering Mark, but you'll see that you're achieving less than with other bars.

However, there are things in RA that you can't test because of player skill and, to a lesser extent, the unique features of RA. For example, you could run Dual Attunements BFlash spammer with Lightning Hammer. I've used that bar in RA for years and gotten perhaps a thousand Gladiator points with it. It pumps out constant damage, has significant self-heal and will be able to keep up BFlash spam indefinitely, as long as attunements stay up. However, I've not seriously used it in GvG for several reasons, including heavy enchant stripping (Rend in the past, now Strip), interrupts on Lightning Hammer killing energy, etc.

I don't think all meta bars began as rogue builds too. Sure, some of the more drastically new builds began as rogue builds, but others like Primal Rage replacing Eviscerate were just natural extensions.

Re: put Daze on the Monk - can't be done. Draw is 1/4s cast. Once Dazed is on the heal Monk instead of prot, a simple RC solves. A long-lasting Dazed can wipe teams if it lands at an opportune time, but chances of that happening is just very low.

I Jonas I · Apr 28, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

The Hammer sword warrior is really really fun to play and suprisingly effective (at least, it was before dervishes completely outclassed every other melee profession). My variant uses

Dev hammer
Frenzy
sever artery
gash
Steelfang Slash
Rush
Bulls strike
Res Sig

12+1+1 sword mastery
9+1 strength
9+1 hammer mastery

The strength of this bar comes from the fact that it's combo's are so versatile. You can sever -> gash one target, switch and dev hammer -> steelfang -> sever -> gash someone else, before swapping and bulls striking or dev hammering a different person. So much fun, haha

SheilaWhiteclaw · Apr 28, 2011, 07:30 PM // 19:30

i so agree with you.I actually had a special hatred for PvP because of these mata builds. If you ever tried to use a different build u were called noob. its just awful to see 2 teams with twin builds.

Reverend Dr · Apr 28, 2011, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

All meta bars began as rogue builds. It's only through demonstrated success that they become meta.

No, don't you understand its only because people copy/paste builds rather than being creative.

urania · Apr 28, 2011, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by SheilaWhiteclaw

i so agree with you.I actually had a special hatred for PvP because of these mata builds. If you ever tried to use a different build u were called noob. its just awful to see 2 teams with twin builds.

'different' and 'bad' are two different things.

at reverend, when a game is 6 years+ old, its hard to talk about creativity, really.

I Jonas I · Apr 28, 2011, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

at reverend, when a game is 6 years+ old, its hard to talk about creativity, really.

I beg to differ