Curse

AndrewSX · Jun 12, 2011, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

-snip-

I meant that even if u have perfect balanced skills (those in the bar) is inevitable that more skilled (player) will beat less skilled (again, if all other conditions are in perfect balance).
Is inevitable. Is how pvp (should) works.

You must accept it when you start pvping and get stomped once. Twice. Trice.

And so on till you aren't anymore one of the "PvErs incoming playerbase to stomp" but who can actually win...versus what you were before actually learn.

lursey · Jun 12, 2011, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

I meant that even if u have perfect balanced skills (those in the bar) is inevitable that more skilled (player) will beat less skilled (again, if all other conditions are in perfect balance).
Is inevitable. Is how pvp (should) works.

You must accept it when you start pvping and get stomped once. Twice. Trice.

And so on till you aren't anymore one of the "PvErs incoming playerbase to stomp" but who can actually win...versus what you were before actually learn.

yes....in a situation of forcing arranged team versus(AT), it is true that less skill players are forced to be stompped...this is the format that creates this sort of things.

1) it is a lot better if you can find 4 similar mind set players, do not disband and keep on trying before they need to find members in an AT vs RT situation

in reality, AT vs AT is rare, they have to build up confidence first as a team in their builds, and skills before facing other AT

AT vs RT is also rare, because random team do not like to get stomp by AT, they escape until they are ready to play to lose to learn.

so forcing AT vs AT, only works in rare circumstances when enough teams are prepared....

how efficient you can find these 4 similar mind set players produce strategical advantages

2), if you cannot find these 4 similar mind set, then how many time being stomped has to happen and how long before you can stomp other? players cannot foresee it.

most of the time, a player make a build, with all the weapons, armour, runes, skill organised for 4 players, perhaps it takes two to three hours.... perhaps use another 3 hours to convince other players using the same build, weapon armour, and runes, then go to codex, got stomp within 5 mins, then disband..

HA, and GVG are more serious as to the time required to setup a team...

and even got stomp, the player cannot learn whether is the player skill or build or both have faults..

I think most of the time it works when you can predict the probability you can win in the game with a given time stamp.

3) therefore meta appears, because it is efficient, players copy the "working build", but it ends up training the meta build instead, which it is supposed to be training on a build that is created and made by yourself.

like using iway farm into rank 10, it is doubtful as to whether he has learnt how to make a working build.

or in CA players copy the build that has a long domination streak

forcing AT creates meta, but meta breaks the learning curve, given that in a totally balanced game, meta build does not appear.

4) so how does forcing AT suppose to be working?
it only works when there is a disappearance of meta, that is the domination of a build for too long.

because as you have already said, skills are impossible to balance anyway due to the amount of available possibility combinations of skills, without having skill balance prompt enough is understandable, but still more limitation on meta by other methods as I have suggested can be considered if a skill balance cannot be made, that is either

a) acknowledge the meta or
b) limiting the use of meta

why does a build can dominate in a supposing rock/paper/scissor situation for so long? that is similar as to saying rock can always beat paper and scissor, is this how it is supposed to be work? rather I think it works is in a fair forcing AT situation is the number of times you can win in a r/p/s game, without the need of using rock or have to consider rock as the domination in the build, not the number of times you have used rock.

in conclusion, incentive as to party forming, closing the gap of skills and build of teams to reduce uncertainty can assist party forming, but most importantly is the skill balance or the meta determines the working of forcing AT design.

kedde · Jun 12, 2011, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

Perhaps fairness is the wrong concept to be discussing. To go along with the soccer analogy: imagine if the only way that new soccer players could learn how to play is if they played with their friends against professional players? If not professional players: how about a local high school team? the newer players would get destroyed either way

Just because a game is fair doesn't mean that it can support a healthy player base or that it is conducive to allowing new players to learn at a reasonable pace.

This however is technically besides the point. It might not be productive or healthy, but it's still fair and how the system is supposed to work.
What breaks it is the game having been in decline for so long, which is due to a long list of other factors that have nothing to do with the format itself, or the way random elimination works either.

Simply put, it's the same situation as with gvg or tombs. It becomes uneven competition between skilled/unskilled teams due to there not being enough of a base of participants to actually weed out the bad teams to other slightly less bad teams. Instead all the bad teams are just instantly eliminated in the first round by much tougher opponents.

Again, not a fault of the system, but a fault of the entire overarching organization which in this case is a 6 year old and at large abandoned game.

superraptors · Jun 13, 2011, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

This however is technically besides the point. It might not be productive or healthy, but it's still fair and how the system is supposed to work.
What breaks it is the game having been in decline for so long, which is due to a long list of other factors that have nothing to do with the format itself, or the way random elimination works either.

Simply put, it's the same situation as with gvg or tombs. It becomes uneven competition between skilled/unskilled teams due to there not being enough of a base of participants to actually weed out the bad teams to other slightly less bad teams. Instead all the bad teams are just instantly eliminated in the first round by much tougher opponents.

Again, not a fault of the system, but a fault of the entire overarching organization which in this case is a 6 year old and at large abandoned game.

pretty much ...

Bright Star Shine · Jun 15, 2011, 12:48 AM // 00:48

I have to say that I had a lot more fun at the start of the update.. Cause we're a semi-decent team usually, easily capable of either winning or at least battling with a r6+ glad team. However, usually we win our first match and then get curbstomped and dragged through the dirt by a gold trim group or r8 champs and stuff like that... Not that I'm complaining, it's normal, and we've improved a lot since that started happening, it can just be frustrating^^

lursey · Jun 15, 2011, 09:19 AM // 09:19

some more observations from codex arena

1) when you can win about 5 consecutive, you probably can win about 20 wins+

2) build setting, is hard for player to make builds without switching professions, to check the primary elite a profession can carry, which increased build setup time, or is a strategical advantage. (fixed, you can see all codex skill and elite by pressing K and show all equip-table codex skills)

3) strong team 10-15+consecutive winners becoming the meta build probably can win 80+ if staying and it becomes no challenge to them as like pve farming button smashing.

4) when strong team is off, the meta build will be copied by some other players, or some other players will eventually come up with the similar meta build.

5) other teams cannot threaten the meta build position unless they use it, because there is only 1 single strongest meta build usually, other team may try to spend time thinking an anti-meta, but eventually will give up and see it is the meta build from the list, this is when the time the arena become the least populated.

6) new comers will either be stomp by meta build, or copy the meta build, players who dislike the meta build or skillful meta build players who are bored by the build with no challenge or no opponent will leave, so as the new comer who constantly stomped by the meta,

7) the number of people who like the meta build determines the population of the arena, as I think players usually can play only a few primary profession, but not all the primary professions.

8) the highest time of population is usually at the beginning of the codex skill change, where when the meta hasn't been deduced from the list of skills.

9) usually when there are only a few players left playing in the arena in the middle of the day, they are usually the one who are either the meta build players (extremely skillful on the meta) or the new comers (really has no idea), that is the time the skill level gaps among the players are the largest.

10) the cycle is like
a) new skill change-->highest no. of player, players try to deduced the meta, the one work best for them(honeymoon period)--->
b) single meta deduced--->extreme skill gap among players,
the longer you on the meta, the stronger you are over the new comer (meta skill period)--->
c) anti-meta may or may not be come up--->players bored by the meta(the dead period)

conclusion

1) the number of different meta determines the number of player playing for example
a) spike build, b) hex build, c) balanced build, d) condition build, e) pressure build, f)specific overpower profession build, f) interrupt build, g)spirit build, h) shout build, etc.

I think if there is an optimum number of metas, maybe 6-9, that means not a single category can be overly powerful, the number of player can be sustain, unless that single category is the overall population in gw, which instead most of the players like 2-3 categories, determined by the number of time a player willing to switch profession. when the meta is not their favored category, they will opt out.

The number of categories can prolong the honeymoon period.

2) the hardest and longest time to deduced the meta, the longest the period of the declining of population, unless there is a meta shift, eg. a skill change, a successful anti-meta build, or etc.

3) there is a need for metas to be deduced, that is a chance to make something work for players, but a single meta itself cannot be stayed too long, meaning whether there is a sustainability of anti-meta builds to control the meta build, and to contain the population.

kedde · Jun 15, 2011, 11:59 AM // 11:59

I did not get anything out of that.

urania · Jun 15, 2011, 02:55 PM // 14:55

making the deck change twice a day might help a bit when the meta is highly unenjoyable (e.g. when the meta is stale because of dual healers, for example).

lursey · Jun 15, 2011, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

making the deck change twice a day might help a bit when the meta is highly unenjoyable (e.g. when the meta is stale because of dual healers, for example).

it actually depends on how fast the meta can be deduced from the given skills set, sometimes it may take 1 hour, sometimes it may take 5 hours etc..

the faster the meta getting deduced, the longer the meta will stay, for example 15 hours in 1 day, as to compare with 2 hours in 1 day..

but if you change the skill set too fast, there may be given no chance for the meta to stay long enough, player may feel they are wasting their effort in making the builds....and also there maybe given no chances for other anti-meta builds to come up to challenge the meta build.

so I think there should be a limit on the consecutive number of winning, + when that limit is reached, the meta can be addressed, and a new skill set can now at that time be implemented...

yea.. and not just dual healer, also other kind of meta such as, must spiking, must condition, must require interrupting, must hexing etc...

more points can be noted again are

1) the longer the meta stay in a day will keep reducing the population as players are bored by it, until the meta is favored by the whole gw community.

which is for example originally

1000 without meta..all happy customers
meta comes up
450 people like the meta
only 450 ppl will stay.. which leaves the whole gw community who only likes the meta.....the other 550 original customer will opt out the game/arena.

the whole gw community reduce from 1000 ppl to 450 ppl...just like that, and sooner or later, the 450 which can be affected by the technicality of the meta, will start declining.

2) the technicality of the meta builds affects the consecutive wins by the amount of time the meta stay long enough for players to widen the gap between the meta build players vs the new comer.

e.g. spiking/interrupting maybe more technical, so if you stay long enough in the spiking meta, the gap can be larger than if you stay long enough in the hexing pressure meta for example...

the smaller the gap, the larger the population, but the harder to get consecutive wins.

the larger the gap, the easier to get the consecutive wins, but the lower the population.

deathy · Jul 04, 2011, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Ok - I haven't read the last two pages as it looks like you guys have thrown up onto the page.

My take on build making in Codex; in short people absolutely suck at it.

There are levels of bad, but each level seems so easy to me, they it just seems like the population is retarded. I think the issue stems from the fact that the majority of players get given their bars (be it pve up to gvg), and so just haven't had the practice.

First level of bad:
Bad skills - People don't understand that their favourite profession might not be viable that day and will force fit a bad build to that profession. More importantly if a skill is bad, it's bad, theres no point taking flare even if there's nothing else. People hugely underestimate auto attacking physical characters.

Second level:
Bar synergy - People just load stuff onto their bar, they'll have skills with conditional requirements that they can never meet. Or they'll spec into 6 attributes, or they entirely ignore having a second profession. Most players are unable to think past replicating meta bars albeit replacing some skills. Some of my most successful bars have been entirely different to standard meta stuff (ie master of magic e/p spear chucker with conjure immolate, blurred,bflash,ice prison etc)

Third level:
Build Synergy - People don't understand that sometimes its worthwhile having a suboptimal individual bar to make up for flaws in the build.

Fourth level:
Taking into account your opponent - this is the level which is nearly entirely non existent from must randomers in codex, the idea that you aren't making the 'best build', but you're making the 'best build for that codex'. I don't care how great your dom mes interrupter bar is if there are no decent caster stuff, or if its quick casting. Why would you bother with a stance removal in a codex with no stances. Why take snares if melee is useless?

Also you should view the skills on small list view by profession...

lursey · Jul 04, 2011, 07:09 AM // 07:09

codex is like the yahoo game "word racer", players try to form the right words in layouts of scattered alphabets.

within it, there are a few super players who can search a 15 letter words, who can score very high marks, and there are a lot other players who can form 3-5 letters words without any difficulties.

the process is fun not because players can score big score with big prize but there is a race of finding the big words in a given set of 1-3 minutes. It doesn't matter whether the big words can be found or not, sometimes you are lucky can score one, other time is no luck, etc., useless alphabets in the grid are used to confuse players to search for the big words, and the pro player can distinguish the right combinations.

the points to note in word racer are
1) the time for each grid is very short, like 1-3 minutes for each grid cycle, and there are a few grid cycles in a game cycle.
2) once the big words are found, other player do not gain any score, even they found it.
3) it doesn't matter whether the biggest word can be found out or not, and at the end it will show it up to you.
4) the starting and ending of each game cycle is quick, players from all around the world can join in different game cycle.

the big words are like the meta in codex, the grid and game cycles are like the skill set cycle in codex.

if you want to succeed in codex, you have to race for the best combination of skills in the given time, however the problem is once you got the best combination, it becomes too overpowered and dominating other possible combinations.

its just similar in "word racer" once you found the big word which score 500 points, if you can keep typing it again and again to scoring wave of 500 points, other players are being forced to type the same word to score the points, but because codex is not like "word racer", where in word racer there is a limit on once the big word is found, you cannot score from the same word.

the race is then turn into a race of typing the same word, "type racer" (using the same meta), than racing to find the meta (the big word), which race is more fun, it depends on whether the meta is fun or not, as I have already describe in my other post previously.

The starting time of the race is also very important, because it is a reason of how well you can perform in the whole race, if you lagged behind the starting time, you will be put at a disadvantage position, that may also be one of the answers to why there are more players in the European time than american time, because the starting time favors more to the European players.

urania · Aug 18, 2011, 08:24 PM // 20:24

time for some thread necromancy.

seems it is possible to have more than 1 instance of a certain profession in CA after all.

its a bug/abuse of (restarts and) combining members of incomplete teams already inside.

mind the dual dervs from yK.

they still lost.

Coast · Aug 18, 2011, 09:46 PM // 21:46

ye, easy to do also...

superraptors · Aug 19, 2011, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

time for some thread necromancy.

seems it is possible to have more than 1 instance of a certain profession in CA after all.

its a bug/abuse of (restarts and) combining members of incomplete teams already inside.

mind the dual dervs from yK.

they still lost.

lol.

2melee fails without 2 heals

o just noticed u faced syncers, figures...

Missing HB · Aug 19, 2011, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

seems it is possible to have more than 1 instance of a certain profession in CA after all.

its a bug/abuse of (restarts and) combining members of incomplete teams already inside.

I don't understand how it works... last time i played CA we had some leaver and we never got any opponent( it was zquest though...)... how can you combine members of incomplete teams already inside ?

Nice joke however... probably not many will realize it so it won't get fixed for sure... but well, will it provide a big advantage in a format completly dead.. i don't know

Coast · Aug 19, 2011, 10:23 AM // 10:23

dual invoke/b flash is pretty strong tho,lol

urania · Aug 29, 2011, 08:56 AM // 08:56

ok, now i've had enough.

posted about this bug/abuse in support forums.

Coast · Aug 29, 2011, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Ye, lost against them too. U just can't rly beat them in todays skillpool unless they mess up hard and u play perfectly. Double meteors+immolate/m blasts hurt when theres no kd prevention and ur cripled and they got mantra of concentration and some interupts.

urania · Aug 29, 2011, 09:54 AM // 09:54

if anyone else has screenshots of more such matches vs two instances of the same profession in opponent team, please post them here: https://forum.guildwars.com/forum/fo...age/1#post4741

at Coast, we beat them the first time, but then they specced for us on both eles.

Missing HB · Aug 29, 2011, 04:07 PM // 16:07

It would be nice to get a complete Codex rework however... simply fixing this ( and considering the number of players that truly care of codex ( which is at best 10)i'm not even sure they will do it) won't solve "anything" there..

Sure, i wouldn't have had 3 joke loses from a bug abuse.. but apart of that, the arena will still be dead... until a new way to abuse it is found...