Curse

Jeydra · Feb 26, 2012, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Must not forget, melee have way more skills that inflict Deep Wound than everyone else; in fact all the ranged Deep Wound skills are unreliable (Vicious Attack can fail to crit + it can be kited, Cruel Spear needs to hit a stationary target, etc) or easily protected against (Accumulated Pain).

Melee can certainly be effective in RA, JQ and FA, you just have to focus on your strengths (i.e. killing other players, not NPCs) instead of anything else. You've got a Sin, so you're still better off than Warriors. Many people don't have antimelee in JQ / FA, so they will typically die very fast to a Sin chain. RA you just have to hope for a Monk or else run around until you're clean and try to snipe someone.

Missing HB · Feb 26, 2012, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

Maybe instead of capping shrines, you should stop those casters from doing so. Just a thought.

But you already need to have those shrines capped.. and not be losing all shrines after a few minutes .. This quite implies that you don't have many melees in team but also players being able to cap( in other words , a balanced team)...

The fact is that a team composed of 5 cappers and 3 melee won't do an especially better job than a team with 8 cappers, i guess this is what the OP is pointing out

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 26, 2012, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I assumed you were talking about pc's, not npc's, but apparently you're not. The npc's have some caster hate as well.

No, just that melee is not particularly common in JQ and any anti-melee is more anti-physical in general then anti-melee in particular.

Not really... apart from Power Spike which they would only use if you stand in aggro range while casting something with a long casting time.

I still don't see what you're talking about, anti physical not anti melee? What do you mean? A ranger can cap without even being hit, there's no defenses against it, I'm not saying they are as good as casters but they are definitely not as gimped as a sin or warrior.

Reverend Dr · Feb 27, 2012, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Yes, it is.

Ensign's old post rings true a lot, but it could really be updated for modern times; things have changed.

Back then the only type of caster pressure came from hex heavy builds and having casters that were always able to be casting something only happened with OoB or some other elite energy management.

Today mind blast is able to put out a lot of pressure and never have the downtime or have to deal hard with the energy cost as casters did back during prophecies. A mind blast that can just sit and cast in 40/40 will put out more raw damage than an axe warrior able to sit in frenzy on an unmoving target. It is just slightly more raw damage and since it can only be fire damage is more susceptible to +10 shields than warrior damage, so warriors can still effectively have more potential damage. At the same time mind blast don't have to be in melee range and aren't subject to standard melee hate.

IoP mesmers are able to output a constant 30dps (compared to the raw damage of axe and mind blast which is around 45-48dps), but all of that is from just one skill that makes it easier for the mesmer to keep up with damage.

Back when Ensign first posted that, there was just so such thing as a caster that could just keep casting and deal damage, now there are many examples of that.

Of course this is a shorthand and one-sided means of looking at all of the powercreep that we've had over the years. However, the original article has many of its conclusions based upon things that were true in prophecies, but are no longer true in the game.

Master Archer Nente · Feb 27, 2012, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

Random Arenas

LOL, blind bot, earth ele, curses necro, dom mesmer, rangers meta. Just give up, go roll a monk if you wanna help here or if you're too dumb then just play a fire ele for free glad points...

Well with my [limited] experience with Random Arenas, GvG, and HA -melee are just as much of a threat to a team as a caster-
Now I agree with much of what Ensign said, and I also agree that it is outdated, but what still holds true with melee in PvP is that they still can put quite a lot of effort and pressure on the team just to mitigate damage or whatever sort of skills the melee might potentially have. And this holds true with caster classes, they put pressure on the team and require them to use skills, energy, and time to mitigate or dodge the skills they are using.
I've had a team of four Dervish's get a 25 win streak in Random Arenas and I've also had a team of four Elementalist's get a 25 win streak in Random Arenas. Depends on the skill level of your team and the teams you face, there is no "Farming Free Points"

For PvE however, I personally run a full caster team (besides me I play Sin in PvE) because I find it works better than having multiple melee on my team.

Don't be hating on Melee because it may not be as much Raw Damage as an Elementalist or as upfront annoying as a good Mesmer, because a good Hammer War can put a lot of pressure on a team.

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 27, 2012, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Archer Nente

Well with my [limited] experience with Random Arenas, GvG, and HA -melee are just as much of a threat to a team as a caster-
Now I agree with much of what Ensign said, and I also agree that it is outdated, but what still holds true with melee in PvP is that they still can put quite a lot of effort and pressure on the team just to mitigate damage or whatever sort of skills the melee might potentially have. And this holds true with caster classes, they put pressure on the team and require them to use skills, energy, and time to mitigate or dodge the skills they are using.
I've had a team of four Dervish's get a 25 win streak in Random Arenas and I've also had a team of four Elementalist's get a 25 win streak in Random Arenas. Depends on the skill level of your team and the teams you face, there is no "Farming Free Points"

For PvE however, I personally run a full caster team (besides me I play Sin in PvE) because I find it works better than having multiple melee on my team.

Don't be hating on Melee because it may not be as much Raw Damage as an Elementalist or as upfront annoying as a good Mesmer, because a good Hammer War can put a lot of pressure on a team.

A good hammer war can put a lot of pressure on a team yes, assuming he is being backed up by a decent monk. A bsurge ele can put a lot of pressure on a team just by being a bsurge ele...

Just another thought, since we are talking about Jade Quarry so much.

"Carriers Defense"

Seriously, what is the purpose of that but to annoy/prevent melee? It does absolutely nothing against casters which are the real threat in JQ.

icedwhitemocha · Feb 27, 2012, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

Just another thought, since we are talking about Jade Quarry so much.

"Carriers Defense"

Seriously, what is the purpose of that but to annoy/prevent melee? It does absolutely nothing against casters which are the real threat in JQ.

I think it's to prevent bodyblocking attempts.

On topic: you're right to be frustrated. Melee is my main class, and there are three places I don't play it: JQ Lux, JQ Kurz, and FA Lux. It's basically masochism.

FA Kurz, however, is actually a fantastic place to play melee. The format (as opposed to FA Lux) rewards killing other players, which often charge headlong for NPCs hoping nobody notices them. As a melee, you have more concentrated and reliable killing power than just about any caster on your team. Sure, a monk can heal up NPCs, but you can kill the nuker before he gets a chance to damage them.

ETA: Using a KD skill doesn't knock down a turtle, but it does interrupt their siege attack 100% of the time. Also, if the juggernaut uses Carrier Defense on a turtle, it falls on its side/back and takes MUCH more damage until it rights itself.

superraptors · Feb 27, 2012, 11:56 PM // 23:56

AB use to be good aswell but its totally dead.

Missing HB · Feb 28, 2012, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

Just another thought, since we are talking about Jade Quarry so much.

"Carriers Defense"

Seriously, what is the purpose of that but to annoy/prevent melee? It does absolutely nothing against casters which are the real threat in JQ.

That's an other problem, a consequence of meta builds changing but the place remaining the same...

At the time JQ was introduced, there wasn't any bar that could recap a shrine in half a second, nor mesmer bars soloing anyone by mashing all skills..
It usually relied on having a true healer at the time, else sins could just kill turtles/juggernauts easily..

Game evolved, today it's about casters ( in JQ).. But well, although i confirm it makes no sense, i think you can still kill that turtle/jug with a melee quite easily, that's not the main issue in JQ

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 28, 2012, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

That's an other problem, a consequence of meta builds changing but the place remaining the same...

At the time JQ was introduced, there wasn't any bar that could recap a shrine in half a second, nor mesmer bars soloing anyone by mashing all skills..
It usually relied on having a true healer at the time, else sins could just kill turtles/juggernauts easily..

Game evolved, today it's about casters ( in JQ).. But well, although i confirm it makes no sense, i think you can still kill that turtle/jug with a melee quite easily, that's not the main issue in JQ

I can kill it yes... but a mesmer spamming wastrels can kill it to from very far away without even being hit or being in danger of being hit. So I think the carriers defense should remain but perhaps be more effective vs casters but I guess Anet doesn't care about GW 1 much any more.

Tryndamere · Apr 06, 2012, 05:43 PM // 17:43

It's almost a non-issue at the 8v8 level. Unfortunately, the problem lies in the smaller 4v4 format, and especially in the random queue because other players, especially newbs, are unreliable in terms of what skills they bring to help cope with the anti-melee condition and hex spam. So it's safe to say that casters reign in RA, while warriors can only shine in 8v8 GvG/HA arenas.

So the answer to the OP's question "Does Anet hate melee?" is YES for RA, but NO for GvG/HA. And sadly, Anet's finally cut off the very little support they had to offer for GW1. Oh well, at least GW1 was pretty fun for the first few years when skills were strong. Now, very few builds are optimal, and are seemingly forever locked in place [Smiter's Boon *rolls eyes*] unless Anet can come to our rescue via skill changes that shake up the meta with new and exciting redefinition of skills.

tealspikes · Apr 07, 2012, 01:17 AM // 01:17

I remember the days when Empathy did around 25 damage per swing...it presented the player without a healer behind him a more interesting dilemma and balanced choice of whether he should attack or not. Now it's incredibly obvious what to do in most situations, and it's simply not fun to be on the wrong end of it.

SkyShadow44 · Apr 08, 2012, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I have to agree with the OP and here's another prime example:

Blindness - 90% chance to miss with attacks.

If any melee class has blindness on them, they are done. Especially if there isn't a monk/support class with condition removal.

A good counter for this I'm sure people will argue is "You should bring Antidote Signet/ect" and my response to that is Antidote Signet forces you to go secondary Ranger or secondary Monk and fend for your own conditions, however, also with the secondary job there's skill activation times.

(Example: Antidote Signet takes 1 second to cast and recharges in 4 seconds, meanwhile blinding surge casts in 1/4 of a second and recharges in 8. But by the time you realize you're blinded and cast it, you have on average 3-6 seconds to inflict damage before you're blinded again.)

Meanwhile...

Daze - Decreases the casting speed by 100%, but the spells still cast successfully

I'm sorry, but I honestly don't think this is balanced. Basically this is just having them cast slower but the spells still work, while blindness completely makes melee classes useless. 100% decreased speed is not balanced with 90% chance to miss.

Also take into consideration some of the skills and what you actually have to do to inflict daze... Assassins have to successfully chain a combo and pray a monk/ele/ect doesn't activate Balanced Stance/Bonetti's Defense/Ect and in MANY cases the skills have pre-requirements like having them bleeding for it to work, while a skill like Blinding Surge can be casted instantly.

Nine times out of ten I get blinded before I even successfully make it to my target if an Elementalist is my opponent and if I manage to survive that, then there's no way for me to possibly inflict daze or have a chance of winning because they just stack blindness.

Currently an Elementalist with Blinding Flash + Blinding Surge is an instant-win against all melee professions.

Personally, I think to balance these conditions it would be better to have blind inflict a 50% chance to miss. I don't make the rules but that's just my opinion on the issue.

Shockwave - Deals on average 150+ damage and inflicts Weakness, Blindness and Cracked Armor.

I don't think I even have to say anything about this one. I'm pretty sure EVERYONE know this skill is overpowered to the max.

You have three conditions and ridiculous damage. I've seen Ele's rush the spawn area and pull this stunt... Although it doesn't turn out good for them, it leaves the opposing party in a serious state of damage... Like a suicide bomber.

Needless to say, if my Sin is at about 1/2 HP when this goes off... It 1-hits me usually.

Shockwave severely needs a nerf asap.

superraptors · Apr 08, 2012, 07:34 AM // 07:34

probably another reason why they should have split skills for different formats not just for pvp as a whole, gvg, tombs and 4v4.

Coast · Apr 08, 2012, 10:39 AM // 10:39

the main problem of why shockwave isn't nerfed yet is caused by this:
the gvgers in the tk don't see shockwave as a problematic skill because its not used in gvg.
On the other hand: they want stone sheath nerfed (altho also being op) while in ra this skill doesn't rly seem to be that strong (compared with shockwave).
Hypocriticy at its best...

Jeydra · Apr 08, 2012, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Or maybe it's just bad.

@SkyShadow44 - Daze hurts casters so much more than blind hurts melee. The "but spells still cast successfully" part neglects the fact that all your spells are now easily interrupted. You can also Daze a target without having to chain a combo (even as a Sin - see Beguiling Haze).

Of course an Elementalist with BSurge AND BFlash is an instant win against all melee professions (up to a point; Sin with Assassin's Remedy has nothing to fear). In the same way a Mesmer with Migraine + 5 interrupts is an instant win against all caster professions except Monks.

By the way I tried playing melee in RA recently, and I'll say this: if ANet didn't love melee so much that they deal so much more damage than everyone else, we would be seeing a lot less antimelee. I suppose you think people enjoy Assassins one-shotting them from 90% health, while Shockwave is "only" killing at 50% health (if you die at 50% health from a 151 damage Shockwave though you're really loading up on the Superior runes lol). It's just that the only way out against the deadlier Sin chains is blind and block.

AlexaCocopuffs · Apr 10, 2012, 01:54 AM // 01:54

If you like Meele but think there not good enough in PvP.....Make a Dervish lol....They are the most overpowered class in the game....You can cap shrines in JQ or whatever. Same with FA.... I've made a warrior a sin and a derv..And I can truly say that Dervishs are way overpowered.

Loki Seiguro · Apr 11, 2012, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Jade Quarry

The objective in this map is to cap quarrys/shrines so that your turtle/juggernaut can carry rocks back and forward (simplistic version)

kk now first of all let's look at the shrines. They are basically just a bunch of mobs standing together that won't move from the same place, dumb AI perfectly designed for nukers to insta gibb without as much as being hit from 100 yards away.

Okay so that's cool, I'm melee, I can't kill them as fast or efficiently as a caster but I can still kill them slowly right? WRONG LOL

Okay, so Quarry 1 2 anti -melee mesmers with clumsiness + lightning surge mesmers that only cast that if you're dumb enough to get too close or a melee class, if that isn't enough, if you're dumb enough to get in melee range but try to run away, they're rangers will just cripple you anyway so gg.

Okay so what's the solution? Don't bring a sin to JQ, bring a necro/mesmer/ele/monk and stop being a strain on your team.

Oh also, I know that melee has a bad time capping quarrys so just in case you decide to run around a bit we'll make sure we'll put crippling rangers on pretty much every spot in the map. good thing casters don't need to move to attack anything.

Moving on

Maybe you should use a HB war. That can clear the clumped up shrines quite easily. Or if you have bomber necs, soj monks, eles, or rangers then maybe you should be spending your time killing the luxon/kur players instead of npcs. or taking out turtles. I don't know how many games I;ve played where turtles are undefended and players just run right by to kill npcs or players. they forget that the objective is not to just gain jade but also to prevent the op getting jade slabs.

Your main problem is that there are melee hate on shrines. Well there is also caster hate on shrines as well. I don't see the problem with this. I;m sure if all the shrines had mesmers that rupt bot you you;d be making a thread about anet hating casters.

Fort Aspenwood

Okay so Jade Quarry isn't very melee friendly but maybe FA is not so bad right? Wrong again...

Now same process, a caster can pretty much just instagibb any NPC, lol that earth ele with unsteady ground and ward against melee? No problem, that Necro with reckless haste I lol@ you, that mesmer with Psychic insta that is out of my range? haha.

Now assuming you play melee on Luxon side, you'd have to face Ele with unsteady ground which doesn't affected ranged unless they are dumb enough to attack through it, Silver armor... Ward against melee, giving a melee class almost no chance to even get past the first gate. I know it's a group game but why should I be useless while the casters behind me are killing everything? I don't want to be a burden on my team.

Now assuming you got past the second gate, great first of all, there's a crippling ranger waiting for you assuming you want to get past him, followed by 2 necromancers with reckless haste and *wait for it* another elementalist with ward against melee and unsteady ground/silver armor...

Same thing inside the Kurzick grounds more reckless necros//crippling rangers/ward against melee elementalists that can be instantly gibbed by a single ele nuker.

If you go outside and try to cap amber shrines then forget it, 2 Kurzick spirit spammers with displacement etc, the only way you gonna kill them is if you bring selfheals and gimp your bar. It's still going to take you 10x longer then if you were a caster.

If you playing on the Kurzick side great, the Luxon warriors and turtles that can't be knocked down or interrupted ( at least 3 times) are great, just as the commanders with whirling defense which is really useful against melee but does nothing against casters.

Moving on because I'm trying to be as brief as possible...

I'm going to ignore all of this part. I play sin in FA all the time on both sides. Its better on Lux side for me tbh p/c you can pick off players that try to run amber lol. Again leave the turles or the gates for ranged players and go for anti mines and player.

Random Arenas

LOL, blind bot, earth ele, curses necro, dom mesmer, rangers meta. Just give up, go roll a monk if you wanna help here or if you're too dumb then just play a fire ele for free glad points...

I don't know what else to elaborate on, I'm just people are going to flame me for this but if you have a solution please let me know because right now, I feel like I should have rolled a caster since my sin is useless in any low level PvE.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you can build wars yourself. I hear sight beyond sight is nice. Just cover enchant. And if there is a monk or nec there they should be bring draw , cond removal, or FF. There is no profession that can do everything. Thats like saying Lol dom mes, rupt bot for casters not to mention rangers have rupts. warriors have daze which last i saw do nothing vs melee.

Reverend Dr · Apr 12, 2012, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Jade Quarry is a terrible format. If somehow bots could be addressed, then making shrine caps be like AB will completely change the entire metagame; this would literally be all that it takes (until people realized that JQ would ultimately be about who more snares the opposing turtle and who keeps their turtle free of snares).

Fort Aspenwood is also terrible. It looks alright for a while and one might think something could be done. Ultimately after playing it enough one realizes that builds and playstyles matter so much less than which team glitches turtles/gunther the most.

RA is mostly people that want glad points. Rather than accept that glad points are rewards for win streaks and for every win streak there must be equal losing streak, the people will instead use any means possible to berate their teammates for not just a single game loss, but what was clearly a guaranteed 25 win streak, for the most minor of transgressions when the fault was clearly upon the random party formation that is hallmark of random areans.

There really isn't anything wrong with melee characters.

Elnino · Apr 12, 2012, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Fort Aspenwood is also terrible. It looks alright for a while and one might think something could be done. Ultimately after playing it enough one realizes that builds and playstyles matter so much less than which team glitches turtles/gunther the most.

Those have been fixed.