Curse

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 25, 2012, 05:36 PM // 17:36

LOL

Serious question.

I'm new to this game so maybe I can offer a fresh perspective or maybe I'm incredibly wrong, I don't know.

Let's start with low level PvP, I'm just going to analyse the maps that are being played the most right now:

Jade Quarry

The objective in this map is to cap quarrys/shrines so that your turtle/juggernaut can carry rocks back and forward (simplistic version)

kk now first of all let's look at the shrines. They are basically just a bunch of mobs standing together that won't move from the same place, dumb AI perfectly designed for nukers to insta gibb without as much as being hit from 100 yards away.

Okay so that's cool, I'm melee, I can't kill them as fast or efficiently as a caster but I can still kill them slowly right? WRONG LOL

Okay, so Quarry 1 2 anti -melee mesmers with clumsiness + lightning surge mesmers that only cast that if you're dumb enough to get too close or a melee class, if that isn't enough, if you're dumb enough to get in melee range but try to run away, they're rangers will just cripple you anyway so gg.

Okay so what's the solution? Don't bring a sin to JQ, bring a necro/mesmer/ele/monk and stop being a strain on your team.

Oh also, I know that melee has a bad time capping quarrys so just in case you decide to run around a bit we'll make sure we'll put crippling rangers on pretty much every spot in the map. good thing casters don't need to move to attack anything.

Moving on

Fort Aspenwood

Okay so Jade Quarry isn't very melee friendly but maybe FA is not so bad right? Wrong again...

Now same process, a caster can pretty much just instagibb any NPC, lol that earth ele with unsteady ground and ward against melee? No problem, that Necro with reckless haste I lol@ you, that mesmer with Psychic insta that is out of my range? haha.

Now assuming you play melee on Luxon side, you'd have to face Ele with unsteady ground which doesn't affected ranged unless they are dumb enough to attack through it, Silver armor... Ward against melee, giving a melee class almost no chance to even get past the first gate. I know it's a group game but why should I be useless while the casters behind me are killing everything? I don't want to be a burden on my team.

Now assuming you got past the second gate, great first of all, there's a crippling ranger waiting for you assuming you want to get past him, followed by 2 necromancers with reckless haste and *wait for it* another elementalist with ward against melee and unsteady ground/silver armor...

Same thing inside the Kurzick grounds more reckless necros//crippling rangers/ward against melee elementalists that can be instantly gibbed by a single ele nuker.

If you go outside and try to cap amber shrines then forget it, 2 Kurzick spirit spammers with displacement etc, the only way you gonna kill them is if you bring selfheals and gimp your bar. It's still going to take you 10x longer then if you were a caster.

If you playing on the Kurzick side great, the Luxon warriors and turtles that can't be knocked down or interrupted ( at least 3 times) are great, just as the commanders with whirling defense which is really useful against melee but does nothing against casters.

Moving on because I'm trying to be as brief as possible...

Random Arenas

LOL, blind bot, earth ele, curses necro, dom mesmer, rangers meta. Just give up, go roll a monk if you wanna help here or if you're too dumb then just play a fire ele for free glad points...

I don't know what else to elaborate on, I'm just people are going to flame me for this but if you have a solution please let me know because right now, I feel like I should have rolled a caster since my sin is useless in any low level PvE.

Olle · Feb 25, 2012, 05:58 PM // 17:58

This could as easely be changed to "Does Anet Hate casters?"

JQ/FA was never intented to be what it is today.
TEAMS running together capping shrines/quarries, not a single necro/ele nuking the ...
out and turning the shrine red/blue.

When i do JQ, i mostly run a simple RA bar, and just kill of anything i can, i dont really go for shrines, unless there are other allies there.

OR
Deaths charge >Hundred blades> s&m slash= pew pew.

And the shrine carries mult. Mesmers with rups/ench removals aswell, so they arent JUST anti melee.

As for FA i hardly play it, but again, its not played as it should.

As for RA....
Ra is 4v4, some matches you will not have a single anti melee, but you will find that your caster-allies will have a hard time. Other matches it will be the opposite.
Its just the way it is.

TL;Dr

Dont QQ, melee is not powerless.

Missing HB · Feb 25, 2012, 05:59 PM // 17:59

That's entirely right, i'm glad to see someone else than me believes that melee is generally underrated( especially the warrior, referring to an old thread i made)..

The problem isn't the class itself, but generally a consequence of bad balances :
- along years they balanced skills according to traditionnal 8v8, and this created skills that are efficient in 8v8 and clearly not made for 4v4 places such as RA( since you're not supposed to have a healer imperatively if you want to go far( note here that i didn't say a monk is a must to win))..It's about luck in that place so you can play melee 24/7 and always be lucky in composition, but for my experience, it's usually about facing earth eles + monks having no healer in my party...
- NPC's IA decreased and again, some skills such as RoJ have nothing to do in places like Jade Quarry. But however, problem is that NPC's are standing in AoE, have too low health, and can get killed " out of range"

Melee has its uses in JQ/FA, but you need to have a good team setup then to be useful to your team( i.e having cappers in JQ, having monks/ nukers in FA), and that's quite hard to rely on a team setup in a random format..

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 25, 2012, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

And the shrine carries mult. Mesmers with rups/ench removals aswell, so they arent JUST anti melee.

As for FA i hardly play it, but again, its not played as it should.

Not really. A nuker/necro bomber/wastrels mesmer/roj monk does not need to go within range of the mesmer with rupts, they'll be dead before they get a chance to rupt anything.

A melee doesn't have that option

Olle · Feb 25, 2012, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

Not really. A nuker/necro bomber/wastrels mesmer/roj monk does not need to go within range of the mesmer with rupts, they'll be dead before they get a chance to rupt anything.

A melee doesn't have that option

Using the correct bars, taking out full shrines is not a problem.

Im not arguing against that you are totally wrong /noob ect, im just explaining what you can do.

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 25, 2012, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olle

Using the correct bars, taking out full shrines is not a problem.

Im not arguing against that you are totally wrong /noob ect, im just explaining what you can do.

you haven't really explained thou have you?

You say you use a RA bar. Standard RA sin bar would be what, wastrels/way of the sin A/E?

Explain to me how a bar like that would let you cap a quarry without dieing. I'm not even going to stress the fact that a ele/mes/monk doesn't even get hit while doing it.

madriel222 · Feb 25, 2012, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Maybe instead of capping shrines, you should stop those casters from doing so. Just a thought.

LoveToBe · Feb 25, 2012, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Just go have fun and kill N/A bomber bots and Roj bots with a sin, standard knocklock.
Killing there nukers so they cant cap = helping aswell

EDIT:madriel beat me to it

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 25, 2012, 06:35 PM // 18:35

What happens if my team has nothing to defend and needs shrines to be capped more importantly then defended?

What am I suppose to do then? Wait around for one of those roj bots/necros in my team to do the useful work?

madriel222 · Feb 25, 2012, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Kill those that are defending the shrines your team needs to cap?

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 25, 2012, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by madriel222

Kill those that are defending the shrines your team needs to cap?

And how do you suppose I do that when there's 2 anti-melee mesmers, 2 Lightning surge eles and 1 crippling ranger next to them.

Maybe they should change the word from melee to tank suicide bomber

Dude I'm not asking you how to play or how to kill people, running a wastrels bar is not exactly hard or w/e. What I'm saying is why do I have next to no chance at capping a shrine and then Mr Monk/Necro/Ele/Mesmer can go there and do it in like 5 seconds, why so much melee hate in these maps, and why are we just talking about JQ, it's the same in FA and to a necessary extent, the meta in RA is mostly all caster teams dominating atm. You can have the 2 best warriors in the world with a monk + random, if you go against a decent Blindbot/foulfeast necro/pbmesoresurge you're not going to win.

FengShuiDove · Feb 25, 2012, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Casters that are set up to cap shrines and kill NPCs are likely not very strong at defense. So as a melee your objective is to stop those casters from achieving their goals. I play a Mo/P and a Me/A in JQ quite often, and I fear Assassins and Warriors who can actually shut me down, keep me from getting to a shrine, and generally kill me before I can do my job.

The thing is, most people suck hard at melee, and in the formats you listed, an entire team full of melee is a terrible thing. The ideal setup is a few cappers, a few healers/support, and a few skirmishers to interfere with the other team's caps and supports. But 8 Monks is gonna win more than 8 Assassins because of the limitations of the format.

So yes, you have to play differently, and running a successful melee is probably more difficult in those arenas, but I'd also say a really really solid melee is a bigger asset to a team than a shrine capper, if the team is generally balanced well.

Showtime · Feb 25, 2012, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Anet only hates rangers. They are indifferent to wars and juggle/skill balance the other prophecies toons at their whim. They do seem to adore assins and rits. NF toons are step children and have a few token things going for them, but nothing like the faction toons. Maybe they love faction toons cuz we hated factions so much.

Swingline · Feb 25, 2012, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Anet doesn't hate melee, they just don't care about this game anymore. Only reason GW1 still has a live team is to give their players for their only live game something to do till GW2 is released.

Warriors have a bad history of being OP in PvP. A long time ago they were too good and got hit with a nerf missile launcher. Then they became hard to deal with because of Defy Pain's ability to let Wars over extend all day long. With no real updates focused for Warriors they became outclassed due to power creep in all aspects of PvP.

Sins were never touched because they did their job in PvP. They are the ganknspank class of GWs and not meant for being a hero by taking on a shrine.

Dervs got love last year.

Even though your question is about melee I feel Rangers need to be talked about as well because their story is similar to Warriors. They were too good in PvP and were nerfed because of rspike then slowly got outclassed because of power creep.

Blackbirdx61 · Feb 25, 2012, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

What I'm saying is why do I have next to no chance at capping a shrine and then Mr Monk/Necro/Ele/Mesmer ....

Personally,
I just think it's another manifestation of what I think of as the Guild Walls Phenomena;

whether it's you must complete a mission by following a very specific route; or a map by following a very specific script/story (which is always Banal) or defeat a Mob by a very specific tactical trick;

The Dev's LOVE Scripts, Mazes. Silly Puzzles – ex: Is the Crystal Desert any better because you have to play Simon Says with the Teleporter every few hundred yards?; and of course you can’t program them to go to any other Teleport; that might be useful!

To succeed at GW (IMHO) you have to figure out how the Devs thought something should be done, and just do that. The thought that anyone might want to try (and occasionally succeed) doing anything not in the way the Devs predetermined any given thing must be done utterly escapes their imagination some how; and is my one unrelenting frustration with this game. This is not IMHO a game that rewards thinking for yourself. Dont think outside the Box - Remember you get the most cheese if you stay cozy inside the box little mouse - said the nice man in the white coat.
------------------------------------------------

Quote:

Showtime: They do seem to adore assins and rits. NF toons are step children and have a few token things going for them, but nothing like the faction toons.

I would agree that there does seem to be a bias that Favors the Expansions, and Nerfs the original toons; how many threads are on this board saying, Rangers; Warriors; Ele's (anything but Monks Really) are unplayable now. Which is a bit hard for me because I'll never play an Assassin; the whole shadow stepping thing is just a bit of a stretch for me; but I never liked "The Shadow" Comics either (I inherited my uncles pile.) Dr Who at least had to do his Shadow Stepping with a Tardis. ; )

Amy Awien · Feb 25, 2012, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

And how do you suppose I do that when there's 2 anti-melee mesmers, 2 Lightning surge eles and 1 crippling ranger next to them.

That is 5 out of 8, go to another quarry that isn't as heavily defending. Seriously, you can't expect to go 1:5 and have the slightest chance of success.

Quote:

why so much melee hate in these maps, and why are we just talking about JQ,

It's not melee hate, because nobody expects melee in JQ, it is intended to be used against rangers.

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 25, 2012, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

That is 5 out of 8, go to another quarry that isn't as heavily defending. Seriously, you can't expect to go 1:5 and have the slightest chance of success.

It's not melee hate, because nobody expects melee in JQ, it is intended to be used against rangers.

That is what the shrine is and any caster can go 1:5.

What do you mean nobody expects melee in JQ ? So my warrior/assassin/dervish is not welcome there?

If that's the case then fair enough but seems rather unfair.

*lemming* · Feb 25, 2012, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Can't speak for the objective formats, but: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...s-t113319.html

tldr: Physical hate is so strong because physicals are so strong.

Fitz Chivalry · Feb 25, 2012, 11:17 PM // 23:17

I actually read all of that lemming and I understand where his coming from and I agree with him, even thou I'm obviously not as experienced as that guy but I can see how warriors in a high level format, properly backed up by monks who keep them cleaned can put up much more pressure then an ele, not to mention the warrior would never run out of energy.

But saying that, that thread is 6 years old... is it still the case ?

*lemming* · Feb 26, 2012, 04:14 AM // 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

I actually read all of that lemming and I understand where his coming from and I agree with him, even thou I'm obviously not as experienced as that guy but I can see how warriors in a high level format, properly backed up by monks who keep them cleaned can put up much more pressure then an ele, not to mention the warrior would never run out of energy.

But saying that, that thread is 6 years old... is it still the case ?

Yes, it is. Caster damage has certainly gotten stronger, but it's still primarily melee physical damage that builds relying on sustained damage to kill are dependent on.

Of course, caster damage increasing over time has also made caster spikes far stronger than they once were, but that's a different story.

(also, removed PvE stuff.)