Curse

DiogoSilva · Mar 02, 2012, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

By that same logic everything is op b/c counters are irrelevant.

No.

You can interrupt a spell that deals 100 damage, or an equally costy spell that deals 200 damage; but the later spell is still stronger than the former spell, regardless of the existence of any counters for them.

The existence of counters helps to auto-balance the game, as they prevent OP skills to become too dominating, but those OP skills are still OP, and should be toned down, or else Random Arena becomes even more so of a game of rock-paper-scissors than what already is.

If Shockwave is toned down, it can still remain useful, the counters for it will still remain useful, but at least eles won't be forced to take SW because it's superior to other options, and opposing profs won't be forced to take anti-SW because it's a broken skill and half the RAers today are earth eles syncers abusing it, resulting in more diversity and "freedom" of choice.

EDIT: However, I agree than MB Shot and P. Block are also abusive. The only solution for an ele is to waste energy canceling, but then Magebane's recharge is lightning fast, and the PB's recharge doesn't gives much time to rest, anyway.

But that's how RA feels so far. OP solutions/ counters to OP problems. It's also the reason why playing melee is nigh impossible to newbies or casuals. Melees are too strong, so how did devs balanced it out? With infinite blind, with infinite block stances, and with infinite anti-melee hexes. Pros will know that they're melee are strong enough so, at a key moment where they're free to act, they can immediatly kill a target. Other players without that knowledge won't simply have fun. Good thing GW2 drastically tones downs the quantity of mindless counters, keeps a few for key moments, and brings new, fun mechanics that allow us to fend for ourselves while still having room to breath.

Essence Snow · Mar 02, 2012, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

I don't think that logically follows, but I do think it's fair to say that eles have so many counters that their abilities need to be strong. I don't know that it's a good way to balance, but a dom mes or magebane will rape any ele, making their whole bar irrelevant, so they kinda need to be pretty good when they don't have one keeping an eye on them.

I was saying that in a reply to another post....but I agree with you. Eles can be shutdown easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

No.

You can interrupt a spell that deals 100 damage, or an equally costy spell that deals 200 damage; but the later spell is still stronger than the former spell, regardless of the existence of any counters for them.

The existence of counters helps to auto-balance the game, as they prevent OP skills to become too dominating, but those OP skills are still OP, and should be toned down, or else Random Arena becomes even more so of a game of rock-paper-scissors than what already is.

If Shockwave is toned down, it can still remain useful, the counters for it will still remain useful, but at least eles won't be forced to take SW because it's superior to other options, and opposing profs won't be forced to take anti-SW because it's a broken skill and half the RAers today are earth eles syncers abusing it, resulting in more diversity and "freedom" of choice.

EDIT: However, I agree than MB Shot and P. Block are also abusive. The only solution for an ele is to waste energy canceling, but then Magebane's recharge is lightning fast, and the PB's recharge doesn't gives much time to rest, anyway.

But that's how RA feels so far. OP solutions/ counters to OP problems.

Random areana is random....otherwise its syncing. If randomly you get a nicely balance group with skill it ofc will roll....shockwave is not gonna change that. There are always going to be skills that are more powerfull than others. So inturn there are always going to be top tier skills....the one always noted as OP. If they all became equal....well then it would be far worse.

Azazello · Mar 02, 2012, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

If Shockwave is toned down, it can still remain useful, the counters for it will still remain useful, but at least eles won't be forced to take SW because it's superior to other options, and opposing profs won't be forced to take anti-SW because it's a broken skill and half the RAers today are earth eles syncers abusing it, resulting in more diversity and "freedom" of choice.

1. That's how metagaming works (in a gw context).
2. A dom mes or magebane, while they're pretty hard counters for eles, are both very versatile characters at the same time. You're never going to say 'oh damn no eles, now I wish I wasn't playing magebane', but facing a good ranger will make you wish you weren't playing shockwave.

Coast · Mar 02, 2012, 08:58 PM // 20:58

the odds of facing a good ranger are as big as the odds of getting a mini ghostly hero out of the hoh chest

DiogoSilva · Mar 02, 2012, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Random areana is random....otherwise its syncing. If randomly you get a nicely balance group with skill it ofc will roll....shockwave is not gonna change that. There are always going to be skills that are more powerfull than others. So inturn there are always going to be top tier skills....the one always noted as OP. If they all became equal....well then it would be far worse.

Not totally true. 2 shockwave eles in a good team without monk have been consistently beating monk teams in the last flux (the one that decreased healing). Not all monk teams, but a nice chunk of them.

Well times 2 SW + Stoning spam destroys monks like butter.

Quote:

So inturn there are always going to be top tier skills....the one always noted as OP. If they all became equal....well then it would be far worse.

Shockwave can be toned down and still remain meta. It's mindless as it is.

Quote:

2. A dom mes or magebane, while they're pretty hard counters for eles, are both very versatile characters at the same time. You're never going to say 'oh damn no eles, now I wish I wasn't playing magebane', but facing a good ranger will make you wish you weren't playing shockwave.

Meanwhile, as an elementalist, you can't say the same. If there's a necro or a mesmer that spam enchantment stripping skills, and/ or a mesmer or a ranger heavy on rupting, you're pretty much handicapped. If there's not, you're godlike. There's no middleground.

Elementalists are in a situation similar to Warriors at the moment for RA. There are countless counters to them (more so to melee because of... Shockwave spam that RA is filled today with), because without counters, those professions dominate in matter of seconds with a huge spam of KD + huge damage. Most of the RA matches nowadays are all about (including monks) melee, elementalists, anti-melee and anti-elementalists.

_Aphotic_ · Mar 02, 2012, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Not totally true. 2 shockwave eles in a good team without monk have been consistently beating monk teams in the last flux (the one that decreased healing). Not all monk teams, but a nice chunk of them.

Well, durr, but your pointing out that flux was/is the problem here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Well times 2 SW + Stoning spam destroys monks like butter.

WTB B-Stance

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Meanwhile, as an elementalist, you can't say the same. If there's a necro or a mesmer that spam enchantment stripping skills, and/ or a mesmer or a ranger heavy on rupting, you're pretty much handicapped. If there's not, you're godlike. There's no middleground.

I hardly see what you're getting at, as that's pretty much the case for all classes.
Every class has something to counter their respective builds, and if you have no one on the opposing team to counter your build, you win. e.g. No melee hate vs. wars/sins/dervs (obviously a very unlikely team matchup)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Elementalists are in a situation similar to Warriors at the moment for RA. There are countless counters to them (more so to melee because of... Shockwave spam that RA is filled today with), because without counters, those professions dominate in matter of seconds with a huge spam of KD + huge damage. Most of the RA matches nowadays are all about (including monks) melee, elementalists, anti-melee and anti-elementalists.

QFT... but I'm about 99% sure that elementalists and that setup of yours have always been this popular, both before and after their updates this year.

DiogoSilva · Mar 02, 2012, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Aphotic_

Well, durr, but your pointing out that flux was/is the problem here.

The flux surely helped, but monks healed themselves 50% and still died easily at times.

Quote:

WTB B-Stance

If not the monk, you could just spike another target. Word of Healing is inefficient when a character with health above 50% dies with 2 shockwaves, unless you want to waste energy. And then the Stoning spam disables the monk while not under B-Stance, or disables one or even two other party characters. Finally, Shockwave is not all about damage. It causes 3 conditions over a wide-area, and the monk has to keep drawing them while healing and/ or protecting himself.

Shockwave simply does so much, and RA is a format where players easily clump together, even when they don't want to. And I'm talking about the best of players, because nowadays, Shockwave spam is the new fashion to obliterate entire noob teams with ease.

Quote:

I hardly see what you're getting at, as that's pretty much the case for all classes.

Someone just said above that MB rangers and PB mesmers can still be very useful against teams with few casters. If not because at least the oppinent needs to have a monk or else they won't go far anyway.

Elementalists, however, are rendered completely useless with a good PB or MBS foes around.

Quote:

QFT... but I'm about 99% sure that elementalists and that setup of yours have always been this popular, both before and after their updates this year.

They have, which only further proves my point. Shockwave has gotten a massive buff because of PvE. The area weakness and adjacent blind are there so elementalists can survive at melee range at HM, against foes that deal 200+ damage. It's a fine PvE skill as it is now, but this thread is asking for a PvP split for that reason.

I personally didn't like the old Shockwave and enjoy how the new one has more synnergy with other earth builds because it applies weakness. It makes the earth magic slightly less linear in PvP to play with. It just happens to be too strong.

superraptors · Mar 02, 2012, 11:19 PM // 23:19

increase cast time to 2 seconds and we will have balance

Jeydra · Mar 02, 2012, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Shockwave is weak. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone cast Shockwave and hit me for zero damage because I run away. They can start casting Shockwave even when right beside me and still deal zero damage. If someone else is applying the snare or KD for them, well and good. They deserve the damage then. Ebon Hawk + Stoning is interesting to a point, but not much more. They're projectiles. Can be kited, obstructed, etc.

The build doesn't destroy Monks. I fear Dom Mesmers much more when I'm Monking.

The solution to bad players getting destroyed is bad players getting better.

Azazello · Mar 03, 2012, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

the odds of facing a good ranger are as big as the odds of getting a mini ghostly hero out of the hoh chest

That's fair, but you don't even have to be good to make an ele or necro curl up and cry.

BTW I just loaded a dom mes bar to see how OP shockwave is when the other team is being sensible. Now I'm embarrassed I took this thread seriously.

superraptors · Mar 03, 2012, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

That's fair, but you don't even have to be good to make an ele or necro curl up and cry.

BTW I just loaded a dom mes bar to see how OP shockwave is when the other team is being sensible. Now I'm embarrassed I took this thread seriously.

ignorance at its finest.

ACWhammy · Mar 03, 2012, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Wow i've been missing the boat. Always loved Shockwave in HA but haven't tried it in RA yet. I hope I get the chance before they nerf it

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

, but spamming 1-2-3 while eating a sandwich with some random pugs should not give you 25 win in a row.

I literally LOL'd here

Azazello · Mar 03, 2012, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Well, I just lost my first game to a team with shockwave in it. Ranger sat on me throughout, mes sat on monk. That's out of 50+ games, a 25 streak this morning and a couple of 10 streaks this afternoon. Although I'm not sure how many of my opponents were running shockwave it seemed pretty common. The real challenging games were, as they always are: Frontliner, plus monk, plus mes or ranger, plus mes ranger necro or frontliner. One loss all day to a team with shockwave in it somewhere, assuming both teams had no healers or both teams had healers. Although I actually did beat around half the monk/shockwave/x/x teams I faced without a monk on my side too.

|VoID| · Mar 03, 2012, 12:57 PM // 12:57

You guys maybe forget the fact that earth eles camp 40/40 set since they're immune to physical, so interrupting them is not always easy.

DiogoSilva · Mar 03, 2012, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Shockwave is weak. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone cast Shockwave and hit me for zero damage because I run away. They can start casting Shockwave even when right beside me and still deal zero damage. If someone else is applying the snare or KD for them, well and good. They deserve the damage then. Ebon Hawk + Stoning is interesting to a point, but not much more. They're projectiles. Can be kited, obstructed, etc.

The build doesn't destroy Monks. I fear Dom Mesmers much more when I'm Monking.

The solution to bad players getting destroyed is bad players getting better.

That would apply to the shockwave eles you have encountered as well. Timed stonings will KD you, unless you're planning to never cast spells, and that applies to any other member in your team besides you. Well-time Shockwaves will blind rangers, which will then get KD right thereafter. And without Magebane, should the ele have a block stance, your ranger won't do much neither.

Shockwave does too much in one skill. Can it be rupted? So can any other elementalist skill. But it's still a cheap skill, with a cheap recharge and a cheap casting cost, that deals 180 PB AoE damage + weakness + cracked armor + blind, and thus it can, at the same time, nuke, AoE spike, further improve spike power, and be more efficient at anti-melee than illusion mesmers.

Coupled with a good KD melee (or a second SW ele) and a good ranger/ mesmer, and you have everything in your team. Anti-melee, anti-spellcasting, and two sources of great damage and KD. Invoke Lightning Eles and Blinding Surge Eles can't bring so much to a team, and they're already pretty strong as they are, because Shockwave substitutes both builds with one, and although it brings some faults with it, those can be covered with good play and/ or good teammates.

That's why the big solution is extreme elementalist hate. Magebane and Powerblock especially. And those are harder to master in RA than Shockwave, which is also a (huge) factor in Random Arenas.

Jeydra · Mar 03, 2012, 02:01 PM // 14:01

It's possible to dodge Stoning even while casting. You put distance between the two of you, and then run side-to-side. Once he casts Stoning, you hit your own spell. The Earth Ele can apply pressure, but it will not destroy Monks - even Monks without Balanced Stance - especially since Patient Spirit, Reversal of Fortune and Shielding Hands exist. Also removing Weakness > Stoning KD, while removing Earth Attunement > the Elementalists's energy.

Trying to blind Rangers with Shockwave is silly because they will interrupt you. You're running next to them, making it easy for them to interrupt. What @_@ As for the 180 PBAoE damage, you can just run away while he's casting Shockwave. You should not eat the full damage unless you are snared / KDed. It's not even an anti-melee skill because unless you all ball up next to each other (I've never seen any team doing that), you can't blind (good) melee for your teammates. BSurge Eles counter melee infinitely better than Shockwave Eles.

I have no comment about fully synced teams because unlike some people, I don't sync.

If you're having trouble with them Eles and don't want / aren't good enough to use Magebane / Power Block, try rolling something with 12-spec Strip Enchantment.

Fitz Chivalry · Mar 03, 2012, 02:57 PM // 14:57

The problem here is a bad ele can still get kills spamming shockwave-ebon-stoning, 123 kind of mentallity. While a bad warrior or bad ranger is something to laugh at.

DiogoSilva · Mar 03, 2012, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's possible to dodge Stoning even while casting. You put distance between the two of you, and then run side-to-side. Once he casts Stoning, you hit your own spell. The Earth Ele can apply pressure, but it will not destroy Monks - even Monks without Balanced Stance - especially since Patient Spirit, Reversal of Fortune and Shielding Hands exist. Also removing Weakness > Stoning KD, while removing Earth Attunement > the Elementalists's energy.

Trying to blind Rangers with Shockwave is silly because they will interrupt you. You're running next to them, making it easy for them to interrupt. What @_@ As for the 180 PBAoE damage, you can just run away while he's casting Shockwave. You should not eat the full damage unless you are snared / KDed. It's not even an anti-melee skill because unless you all ball up next to each other (I've never seen any team doing that), you can't blind (good) melee for your teammates. BSurge Eles counter melee infinitely better than Shockwave Eles.

I have no comment about fully synced teams because unlike some people, I don't sync.

If you're having trouble with them Eles and don't want / aren't good enough to use Magebane / Power Block, try rolling something with 12-spec Strip Enchantment.

I'm the elementalist myself. I used to do traditional Invoke/ Mind Blast, but now there's no reason to do it. Weakness is too easy to spam now, that I can KD the monk before it is removed. And I've successully blinded and KDed rangers at my side, because I run a block stance and not every ranger carries Magebane.

I wasn't talking about sync, just luck. Half the RA players are Shockwave eles today, so it's common to get one more in your team; because of that, heavy anti-elementalist professions are even more commonly played, and KD melee are frequent enough within good melee players. So it's not hard to get such a party every once and a while.

Like you said, the solutions against good players are heavy rupting, or heavy enchantment stripping. If you try to beat them "the normal way", they'll just 123 spam you to death.

Jeydra · Mar 03, 2012, 03:33 PM // 15:33

You can only KD Monks reliably if they aren't actively attempting to avoid getting KDed - something Monks should do once they see what build you're using. Gale is reliable KD. Stoning is not. They can reliably cast spells even against your Stoning spam because even if they get KDed they have another 3 seconds to use a spell before the next KD lands - if they didn't dodge it.

I've successfully kept a Ranger permanently blind with BFlash because he was fool enough to keep casting Mending Touch on recharge. I've trained Monks down as an Assassin because they kept trying to cast 1s spells while Dazed. Irrelevant. Builds that beat bad players are not necessarily overpowered.

You were talking about having a KD melee + a Ranger / Mesmer + a Shockwave Ele + (presumably) a Monk - that's four characters, and a full sync. Sure it's not hard to get such a party once in a while. But the keywords are "once in a while".

You complain about having to use something other than the "normal way". What is this "normal way" to you? Are interrupts and enchantment removal not "normal" to you? Interrupts are powerful. So is enchantment removal. What's your beef with bringing either? Build after meta build in RA has had melee hate. You yourself are using a block stance. Why aren't you bitching about how overpowered melee is then?

As for 123, I don't give a damn about 123. A build is overpowered if it is too strong, e.g. it deals too much damage, it counters too many builds, etc. A build is not overpowered if it 123s.

I'm done.

DiogoSilva · Mar 03, 2012, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You complain about having to use something other than the "normal way". What is this "normal way" to you? Are interrupts and enchantment removal not "normal" to you?

Other than Dom mesmers, Magebane Rangers and Corrupt necromancers, the SW eles overpower everyone else.

Quote:

Build after meta build in RA has had melee hate. You yourself are using a block stance. Why aren't you bitching about how overpowered melee is then?

I already did, in this thread.

Quote:

Sure it's not hard to get such a party once in a while. But the keywords are "once in a while".

Just like how only once in a while do you get a party with a monk + ranger/ mesmer. So the best way to neutralize skilled earth elementalist juggernauts in good parties is to depend on "once in a while" parties that have both a monk and a good ranger/ mesmer. Even enchantment stripping can be dealt with if I time well my dervish block enchantment, if the context allows for it and if the enemy party isn't overflowing with anti-enchantment builds, which is even more so "once in a while".

I don't even need a perfect party. Either a rupter or a good melee or a good second SW ele might be enough to make some pretty abusive combos in the middle of a match.

Quote:

A build is overpowered if it is too strong, e.g. it deals too much damage, it counters too many builds, etc.

Shockwave deals too much damage, and it counters most of the melee builds by itself, in just one skill. It's neither a Blinding Surge or an Invoke Lightning: it's both with some drawbacks that can be overlooked with skilled play and decent team mate synergy (even by RA standads). It also requires little to no mastery to achieve easy kills, while most of its counters (rupts) are on the opposite spectrum of skill required.