Curse

Jeydra · Jul 13, 2011, 12:07 AM // 00:07

I compared Breeze with Vig Spirit because they are both heals over time, which is necessarily weaker than spot heals in terms of desirability.

1. Eles cover Attunements with Aura of Resto. If he's kiting the Warrior he's negating damage but not getting heals from Vig Spirit.
2. I suppose, but as with CoP and hex covering that's why one runs two hex removals.
4. Idea is to use it when you see the enchant removal coming.
5. I've found it difficult to play without Veil; the skill is very important unless you're runny some funky elite like Blessed Light. I don't like CoP for reasons stated above. Deny Hexes suffers from the obvious problem of no bar push. Sig Rejuv is stronger vs. energy denial, etc, which is also pretty common.

If you think Vig Spirit is a good skill to have but in the end it's down to personal preference, then I agree.

@above -

I'm not comparing SoR to Veil. I'm comparing it to Vig Spirit.

Ariena Najea · Jul 13, 2011, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I compared Breeze with Vig Spirit because they are both heals over time, which is necessarily weaker than spot heals in terms of desirability.

1. Eles cover Attunements with Aura of Resto. If he's kiting the Warrior he's negating damage but not getting heals from Vig Spirit.
2. I suppose, but as with CoP and hex covering that's why one runs two hex removals.
4. Idea is to use it when you see the enchant removal coming.
5. I've found it difficult to play without Veil; the skill is very important unless you're runny some funky elite like Blessed Light. I don't like CoP for reasons stated above. Deny Hexes suffers from the obvious problem of no bar push. Sig Rejuv is stronger vs. energy denial, etc, which is also pretty common.

If you think Vig Spirit is a good skill to have but in the end it's down to personal preference, then I agree.

@above -

I'm not comparing SoR to Veil. I'm comparing it to Vig Spirit.

I don't understand why you think healing over time is a bad thing. It allows you to deal with Shame/Diversion when Veil is down, times when you are knocked down, under Blackout, dealing with Migaine, and so on. You can also play less predictably which helps you to play against good Rangers and Dom Mesmers.

1: One cover is insufficient to deal with Strip Enchantment. Also, the semi-recent nerf to Aura of Restoration recharge allows Rip Enchantment (or Drain Enchantment on a HSR) to remove both before it can be re-applied. Also, Conjures and Dervish enchantments need covering versus good players.

2: You do not need two hex removals. There is more than one right way to Monk, and Vigorous Spirit makes up for the loss of a second removal.

4: Using Patient as a cover should be a last resort, since it no longer heals on removal. Vigorous Spirit covers for 30s, and has some effect before it is removed. Also, it is the best self-heal on your bar.

5: I cannot think of ANY reason to not bring Veil in RA, including using a dedicated hex-removal elite such as PnH.

SoR is a reactive skill, and Vigorous is a passive skill. As I noted in the beginning of this post, there are numerous advantages to having passive skills on your bar, although a balance of (re)active and passive skills is best (see also: Veil vs. Cure Hex). I bring both since they handle pressure efficiently and in different ways; Vigorous used as I have noted, and SoR used to keep allied bars above 90% or so.

I am curious as to the exact bar you use. Prior to bringing Vigorous Spirit, I used Healing Burst and Cure Hex. This makes up for Vigorous Spirit (mostly) on casts, at the cost of weaker single-target healing from WoH which I have found far more important in RA. Anyways, please post what you run including attributes.

Jeydra · Jul 13, 2011, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I have always run with this bar (well, since Identity gave it to Vega who gave it to me, anyway):

14 Healing Prayers
10 Divine Favour
9 Tactics

Word of Healing
Sig Rejuv
Patient Spirit
Spotless Soul
Cure Hex
Holy Veil
Stance x2 (I use Shield Bash + Disciplined, although recently I've tried dropping one stance for another Monk skill like Divine Spirit).

gl hf in RA.

Ariena Najea · Jul 13, 2011, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I have always run with this bar (well, since Identity gave it to Vega who gave it to me, anyway):

14 Healing Prayers
10 Divine Favour
9 Tactics

Word of Healing
Sig Rejuv
Patient Spirit
Spotless Soul
Cure Hex
Holy Veil
Stance x2 (I use Shield Bash + Disciplined, although recently I've tried dropping one stance for another Monk skill like Divine Spirit).

gl hf in RA.

I never much cared for Spotless Soul due to its recharge time. It is certainly efficient (~5 removals for 5 energy) but not as reliable as Draw for removing a stack quickly. Particularly with the current Dervish meta, Cripple often finds its way to the bottom of a stack, and AoB's burning can render SS nearly-useless. Then again, not having Guardian/Vigorous on your bar necessitates more red-barring, so it is probably worth the tradeoff when you have only one physical to manage on the team, or are not facing BFlash.

What is your reasoning for running Shield Bash and Disciplined on the same bar? When I played around with dual-stance around this time last year, I found Shield Bash (or Dolyak) and Riposte to be a far more effective combination. The small added damage helps you win with a bad team who cannot kill anything, and it is easy to charge on a midliner or their own Monk by Swording. I also tried replacing the wand in my high set with a +5e Sword (to have in addition to my Spear set) and had success there, although I did occasionally forget that my 72 set was no longer quite at 72.

Reverend Dr · Jul 14, 2011, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I'm not quite sure what we are arguing about anymore. Heal over time is always worse than direct heals. There is nothing in the game that can shut you down for an extended period of time (other than death). If something dies in that meantime, then something got spiked and no HPS is going to help that. The only time to take a HPS spell is if it has a mucher higher health healed to energy spent than the next skill down.

Covering other people's enchantments is not your job. Sure do it if you can. But if you ever have to cover someone's enchantments, then leave that team. Same idea that if they can't kite for themselves, you should also leave the team. In either case patient is 5 energy, vigorous is 5 energy, so using either as a "cover" enchantment really affects nothing and you simply should not bring skills just to "cover" enchants.

Sadly redbar pushing is strong and has only been getting stronger. It takes little more than bringing red bar skills and pushing buttons on low red bars to "effectively" monk. What's worse is that it is taking more and more requirements on protting to keep up with this red barring. All of this is allowing so many people to just bring more "red bar" than to bring prot because it takes near precognitive levels of awareness to use prot as is to use reactive redbarring. This has flavored recent RA monk discussions more than anything else.

Veil is amazing. The only time you wouldn't want it is is you are running P&H, CoP, or Deny and in any of those cases the rest of your bar is going to require other skills it normally wouldn't and is just going to be hurting compared to overall effectiveness against veil. Veil is amazing.

Cantos · Jul 14, 2011, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I'm not quite sure what we are arguing about anymore. Heal over time is always worse than direct heals. There is nothing in the game that can shut you down for an extended period of time (other than death). If something dies in that meantime, then something got spiked and no HPS is going to help that. The only time to take a HPS spell is if it has a mucher higher health healed to energy spent than the next skill down.

Covering other people's enchantments is not your job. Sure do it if you can. But if you ever have to cover someone's enchantments, then leave that team. Same idea that if they can't kite for themselves, you should also leave the team. In either case patient is 5 energy, vigorous is 5 energy, so using either as a "cover" enchantment really affects nothing and you simply should not bring skills just to "cover" enchants.

Sadly redbar pushing is strong and has only been getting stronger. It takes little more than bringing red bar skills and pushing buttons on low red bars to "effectively" monk. What's worse is that it is taking more and more requirements on protting to keep up with this red barring. All of this is allowing so many people to just bring more "red bar" than to bring prot because it takes near precognitive levels of awareness to use prot as is to use reactive redbarring. This has flavored recent RA monk discussions more than anything else.

Veil is amazing. The only time you wouldn't want it is is you are running P&H, CoP, or Deny and in any of those cases the rest of your bar is going to require other skills it normally wouldn't and is just going to be hurting compared to overall effectiveness against veil. Veil is amazing.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to conclude here. Are you disagreeing that Vig Spirit is a solid choice for RA bars? It's not a staple, but it's definitely a decent choice. The opinion "Vig spirit is worthless" is an incorrect one.

Jeydra · Jul 14, 2011, 11:38 AM // 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I never much cared for Spotless Soul due to its recharge time. It is certainly efficient (~5 removals for 5 energy) but not as reliable as Draw for removing a stack quickly. Particularly with the current Dervish meta, Cripple often finds its way to the bottom of a stack, and AoB's burning can render SS nearly-useless. Then again, not having Guardian/Vigorous on your bar necessitates more red-barring, so it is probably worth the tradeoff when you have only one physical to manage on the team, or are not facing BFlash.

What is your reasoning for running Shield Bash and Disciplined on the same bar? When I played around with dual-stance around this time last year, I found Shield Bash (or Dolyak) and Riposte to be a far more effective combination. The small added damage helps you win with a bad team who cannot kill anything, and it is easy to charge on a midliner or their own Monk by Swording. I also tried replacing the wand in my high set with a +5e Sword (to have in addition to my Spear set) and had success there, although I did occasionally forget that my 72 set was no longer quite at 72.

Spotless > Draw because attempting to blind someone who's under Spotless is futile. Blind can be spammed way easier than Draw, and trading 6e (or less, depending on which Attunements are up) on the Ele for 5e on the Monk is a very good trade. Good blindbots can still do things like blind an Assassin on his lead attack, but they can't keep the sin blinded forever.

If your team needs Riposte to kill you might as well stay on a staff set and wand, and if you're going to do that you might as well bring Bonetti's (and Vig Spirit).

I run with 72 energy on high set. Some people don't approve, but I do it anyway and to be honest there's not much of a difference. How often does one use high set anyway?

If you want to discuss RA Monk bars the right person to do it with is Karla. I don't intend to take part.

Regards.

HigherMinion · Jul 14, 2011, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cantos

I'm not even sure what you're trying to conclude here. Are you disagreeing that Vig Spirit is a solid choice for RA bars? It's not a staple, but it's definitely a decent choice. The opinion "Vig spirit is worthless" is an incorrect one.

I don't believe even Jeydra said it was worthless. It's not really just a matter of opinion, but it's based on your whole bar; you can't just swap "vig spirit for sig of rejuv". When you run CoP, you are *required* to bring Patient and Vig. If you don't bring it, you can bring Sig and not have to waste 12e each time you want to remove a hex/condition stack.

My dual stances are always Prot Defence and Bonetti's. P-Defence replaces guardian quite well.

urania · Jul 14, 2011, 12:57 PM // 12:57

prot's defense (like wary stance) are good untill you face caster kd spammage (earth ele, gale or mshock air eles or caster kd sin). you might not die, but someone else might if they have decent damage output beside the caster kds.

idk about you, but the very essence of RA for me has always been this amazing 'coincidence' to almost always meet a team that'd completely buildwars my own whenever i'd run something other than my usual bars. actually, that happens often even when i am running my normal stuff. sigh.

HigherMinion · Jul 14, 2011, 02:18 PM // 14:18

I assume "Karla" = Urania?

So you're the monk who runs Mo/R all the time with Signet of Devotion...

urania · Jul 14, 2011, 02:51 PM // 14:51

yea, i love it. good old boon prot that actually still works.

HigherMinion · Jul 14, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

yea, i love it. good old boon prot that actually still works.

Only two things I don't like about it; Divine Spirit's cooldown is way too long and Mel's Resistance is so easily shattered

You're a pretty cool monk, though.

Missing HB · Jul 14, 2011, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

idk about you, but the very essence of RA for me has always been this amazing 'coincidence' to almost always meet a team that'd completely buildwars my own whenever i'd run something other than my usual bars. actually, that happens often even when i am running my normal stuff. sigh.

Pretty fun , that's exactly what i was saying to my guildies earlier... I also noticed that i keep facing same people with no monk after 5 consec, for about 8-10 fights ( happens almost every time)...

But yes , i highly doubt that this arena is truly random...

deluxe · Jul 14, 2011, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Aura Slicer, Gash, Sun & Moon Slash, Harriers Grasp, Onslaught, Distracting Strike, Savage Slash, Res.

14 wind, 12 sword, 7 myst, 1 major wind rune.

Spam aura slicer before you d-strike to shut down key skills.

Ariena Najea · Jul 15, 2011, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I'm not quite sure what we are arguing about anymore. Heal over time is always worse than direct heals. There is nothing in the game that can shut you down for an extended period of time (other than death). If something dies in that meantime, then something got spiked and no HPS is going to help that. The only time to take a HPS spell is if it has a mucher higher health healed to energy spent than the next skill down.

Covering other people's enchantments is not your job. Sure do it if you can. But if you ever have to cover someone's enchantments, then leave that team. Same idea that if they can't kite for themselves, you should also leave the team. In either case patient is 5 energy, vigorous is 5 energy, so using either as a "cover" enchantment really affects nothing and you simply should not bring skills just to "cover" enchants.

1: Knockdowns, Blackout, Good Rangers and Dom Mesmers, etc as explained several posts back.

2: If you only plan to stay with ideal teams in RA, you are only going to leave frustrated. Having teammates who kite is a welcome luxury, but then again, kiting is not as important with the near perma-cripple Dervishes offer. As for covering, you should always cover Veil versus good Mesmers and Curses Necs. Comparing Patient to VS as a cover is pointless since Patient only lasts 3s under an enchanting set. Also remember that VS has the potential to heal as much or more than WoH, which is rather absurd.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Spotless > Draw because attempting to blind someone who's under Spotless is futile. Blind can be spammed way easier than Draw, and trading 6e (or less, depending on which Attunements are up) on the Ele for 5e on the Monk is a very good trade. Good blindbots can still do things like blind an Assassin on his lead attack, but they can't keep the sin blinded forever.

If your team needs Riposte to kill you might as well stay on a staff set and wand, and if you're going to do that you might as well bring Bonetti's (and Vig Spirit).

I run with 72 energy on high set. Some people don't approve, but I do it anyway and to be honest there's not much of a difference. How often does one use high set anyway?

If you want to discuss RA Monk bars the right person to do it with is Karla. I don't intend to take part.

Regards.

1: Versus a single source of Blind by itself, SS is almost certainly the better choice, however, SS is ineffective at removing stacks between multiple allies, whereas Draw can accomplish both roles.

2: Riposte's damage is not the draw of the skill. Riposte charges extremely quickly at four adrenaline compared to other options, making it effective against Warriors, Assassins, and Dervishes. The damage is just a bonus.

3: There is little reason to run anything other than 72 energy, and as I noted in my previous post, I missed having the full 72 when I ran a +5e Sword in that set. Since the Dervish update, I find myself to regularly pull from my high set against even decent teams. If you are not taking advantage of this set, you should be running a more aggressive bar, meaning dropping efficiency skills for more potent ones such as Spotless Soul for Draw Conditions. You cannot of course bring only these expensive skills, but not taking advantage of your high set is a waste.

4: I am glad you posted your style of playing as it contrasts mine and helps show newer players that there is more than one right way to play effectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

yea, i love it. good old boon prot that actually still works.

I could never find a good balance of skills on my bar that was versatile enough to go on long streaks. If I remember right, I used to run:

RoF, Guardian, Shielding Hands, Spirit Bond or Shield of Absorption, Draw, Veil, Divine Boon, and Melandru's Resilience. This was well before the Dervish update, and before the Invoke Lightning nerf when it started seeing regular play, so I am curious as to what you run nowadays.

urania · Jul 15, 2011, 09:43 PM // 21:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

I could never find a good balance of skills on my bar that was versatile enough to go on long streaks. If I remember right, I used to run:

RoF, Guardian, Shielding Hands, Spirit Bond or Shield of Absorption, Draw, Veil, Divine Boon, and Melandru's Resilience. This was well before the Dervish update, and before the Invoke Lightning nerf when it started seeing regular play, so I am curious as to what you run nowadays.

ouch energy.

i run a fair amount of e management on my mr boon (because the elite is a fairly unreliable source of energy in more than one way).

divine boon
divine spirit (i use it in 40/40 ds set - double fast recharges sometimes win matches when your elite isnt of much use; +bar compression because it also pumps deny, allows more frequent guardian faking if need be)
sig of devotion (spam as much as possible & fake as much as possible if there are rangers in opposing team)
draw conds (vs dual blind you'll still need some form of shutdown, because dual invoke+bflash is just too much damage over time, especially if your mates are staffing baddies that tend to ball)
guardian (we know how important preprot is - on a boon, it's twice as important...for obvious reasons; even my preprot 'abilities' have taken a hit from years of red barring with woh and patient, but its nevertheless a good way to learn preprotting, because you're really punished heavily if you're not doing it [right])
reversal of fortune (spammable heal like draw] under ds, otherwise use it with care)
deny hexes (deep removal of up to 4 hexes at a time if counting in recharges from ds, sig, divine boon and the skill itself)
melandru's resilience (hope for no wild strikes/irre sweeps/wild throws/wild blows - if present, well, hope your team is good and kite as much as possible).

the build itself isnt hard to outplay, but many do not know how to outplay it without direct counters (stance removal, aggressive ench removal and dom hex spam). moreover, mr boon is quite vulnerable to (and woh strong against) combinations of eles ,e surge mesmers, spirit str rits, channeling rits or any team setups with high damage output involving little condition and/or hex pressure, from obvious reasons - here's where your team mates come into play again.

mr boon is not really a replacement to woh pure heal or hybrid heal, but its a good (and more fun, though harder to play) alternative that often copes better with cond and/or hex pressure.
melandru's resilience should be upgraded to a skill btw. really.

i could write a wall of text about this build, what it works well against, what it is weak against and how to play in such situations, but meh.

Reverend Dr · Jul 15, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariena Najea

1: Knockdowns, Blackout, Good Rangers and Dom Mesmers, etc as explained several posts back.

2: If you only plan to stay with ideal teams in RA, you are only going to leave frustrated. Having teammates who kite is a welcome luxury, but then again, kiting is not as important with the near perma-cripple Dervishes offer. As for covering, you should always cover Veil versus good Mesmers and Curses Necs. Comparing Patient to VS as a cover is pointless since Patient only lasts 3s under an enchanting set. Also remember that VS has the potential to heal as much or more than WoH, which is rather absurd.

This will not shut you down for an extended period unless you and your team are playing terrible. HPS are always inferior to a direct heal for the same amount of healing.

Comparing anything via its viability as a cover enchantment is a meaningless comparison. This is completely outside your role. If someone is running a bar that can't be played unless someone else can provide enchant covers, then that is a terrible bar. It isn't about only playing with ideal teams, its about avoiding the piss poor.

Ariena Najea · Jul 16, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

This will not shut you down for an extended period unless you and your team are playing terrible. HPS are always inferior to a direct heal for the same amount of healing.

Comparing anything via its viability as a cover enchantment is a meaningless comparison. This is completely outside your role. If someone is running a bar that can't be played unless someone else can provide enchant covers, then that is a terrible bar. It isn't about only playing with ideal teams, its about avoiding the piss poor.

Given that this discussion regards RA, you should expect at least one member of your team to have no idea what is going on. Also, you continue to discount the benefits in real situations. Vigorous Spirit heals for around as much as WoH (and is not elite), can be applied when you have ample energy, cannot be twitched (unlike WoH), AND has the utility of being a great cover enchantment. No one has yet come up with a reasonable argument to convince me it is not worth having a cover for Veil. As I have stated before, Patient Spirit cannot fulfill the same role since it heals for less and is not viable as a long-term cover.

Thanks karla for posting your bar, I will give it a try this weekend.

superraptors · Jul 17, 2011, 06:33 AM // 06:33

you know whats funny is you are all talking asif ra takes any skill or has any degree of competitiveness, the chances you are ever going to run into a good team or be in one is unlikely.

R A I Y N E · Jul 17, 2011, 07:16 AM // 07:16

some1 must not play in the asian dists