Curse

Ariena Najea · Jun 25, 2010, 10:42 PM // 22:42

You can also use it point-blank (melee-ish range) and it will almost never miss. You shouldn't be at "max" range most of the time anyways regardless of what bow you are using. You might want to bring Needling Shot to be able to attack your Dazed Target more quickly without using interrupts as well as to also spread Poison/Bleeding and save your rupts for midliners. Note that NS has a 3/8 (.375 second) delay before the arrow fires rather than the 3/4 listed, which is for the whole activation including time after the arrow is fired.

Sirius Bsns · Jun 26, 2010, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Hunter's Shot is good for a quick-activating cover condition after successfully landing BHA. BHA is usually effective vs standard wiki WoHers, but some might have bonetti's and M.Touch, or Life Sheath. If any of those cases are true, your BHA goes to waste pretty easily.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jun 26, 2010, 10:07 AM // 10:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by aefghuys

a lot of guardian hate i see... i find it necessary on my monk, what these guys dont realize is its not for using it on yourself all the time....how about your wars using frenzy? it helps a ton and can save loads of energy in the long run, im just sayin... sure theres an argument for everything in guild wars(and many egos saying their way HAS to be the right way) ive experimented a lot with monks in RA(i love pvp with no wait time), and i know at least that its a necessity for ME. happy gwing!!!

I, along with every mentally functional human, know that Guardian can, and should, be used on people besides the caster. This (to you, remarkable) observation does not, however, mean that it is optimal, and certainly not that it is necessary.

Chucky333 · Jun 26, 2010, 11:49 AM // 11:49

I don't know how you can enter RA without Guardian.
I tried all sorts of CoP bars with nothing but redbarring capabilities and just ended up returning to my old WoH hybrid bar with Guardian and SH\SB.
If you use it right it just lifts too much physical pressure to not bring it.
I also don't like Bonetti's and don't bring any blocking stance so maybe that's why i need it, but i find it especially useful in RA given the overall quality of the Wars\Sins\Dervs in RA, most of which will not switch targets under any circumstances, and most of which will monkstomp you until they're dead.

It's also extremely useful if the enemy team has a decent ranger so you can land it on the midline casters that they tend to camp.

BobTheTank · Jun 27, 2010, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Haha, I basically want a 'monk killer' build. Basically, a bar designed to counter everything that makes monks hard to kill (enchantments, self-heals and defensive stances).

Del · Jun 27, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheTank

Haha, I basically want a 'monk killer' build. Basically, a bar designed to counter everything that makes monks hard to kill (enchantments, self-heals and defensive stances).

Try whirling with rending touch. Might be a dumb idea, but if you really want to buildwars monks, might be worth a shot.

Sirius Bsns · Jun 27, 2010, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheTank

Haha, I basically want a 'monk killer' build. Basically, a bar designed to counter everything that makes monks hard to kill (enchantments, self-heals and defensive stances).

E-denial is effective vs everything (including monks). Roll a Mind Surger and you can just about roll your face on your keyboard and win.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jun 27, 2010, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chucky333

I don't know how you can enter RA without Guardian.
I tried all sorts of CoP bars with nothing but redbarring capabilities and just ended up returning to my old WoH hybrid bar with Guardian and SH\SB.
If you use it right it just lifts too much physical pressure to not bring it.
I also don't like Bonetti's and don't bring any blocking stance so maybe that's why i need it, but i find it especially useful in RA given the overall quality of the Wars\Sins\Dervs in RA, most of which will not switch targets under any circumstances, and most of which will monkstomp you until they're dead.

It's also extremely useful if the enemy team has a decent ranger so you can land it on the midline casters that they tend to camp.

Not to discourage you because it's nice to see people wanting to prot and watch the field instead of redbarring but how do you do against esurge mesmers and mind blast ele's?

Also bonetti's is an incredible stance in RA because most of the time people will attack through it at least 2 or 3 times each keeping your energy up most of the game.

urania · Jun 27, 2010, 08:18 AM // 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobTheTank

Haha, I basically want a 'monk killer' build. Basically, a bar designed to counter everything that makes monks hard to kill (enchantments, self-heals and defensive stances).

how about...dont suck and you'll get most of them down with some minor assistance from your team?

a well-timed d chop/d shot/magebane on word or dev hammer with wild throw etc. are all notorious to play against if the player him/herself is good.

Chucky333 · Jun 27, 2010, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Not to discourage you because it's nice to see people wanting to prot and watch the field instead of redbarring but how do you do against esurge mesmers and mind blast ele's?

Also bonetti's is an incredible stance in RA because most of the time people will attack through it at least 2 or 3 times each keeping your energy up most of the game.

Against Esurge mesmers i just hide energy. If i get targeted by a MB ele i just tend to cast SH on myself and hope i can heal through the damage.
I don't see how having more redbarring skills and another stance instead of prots will help you do any better against Esurgers and MB eles, since unless i get woh or patient dshot\diverted, it's enough heals for me.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jun 27, 2010, 04:57 PM // 16:57

The reason why I think it helps you do better against MB ele's and esurgers is that it's more efficient to keep your team up and keep them clean so they can kill quickly. Most non-monk players don't bring hex removal whereas there is no reason why people shouldn't bring some form of self defence to mitigate damage even if it's just shield bash.
I feel the main problem with guardian is the investment into protection, you have to spread your attributes finer. Also guardian is pretty much interrupt bait, 90% of magebane rangers should hit it with ease.

Bonneti's doubles up most games as energy management and a blocking stance. It takes time to get up but if you autoattack with a spear it should be ready to use most of the time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just explaining my opinion on it - whatever works I guess.

Edit: I know you can use Guardian on other people but most of the damage is focused on the monks, so when you're about to get spiked would you rather spend one second casting guardian(for it to probably get interrupted in some way) or activate bonneti's instantly and survive the spike with a full bar of energy?

Corporeal Ghost · Jun 27, 2010, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

there is no reason why people shouldn't bring some form of self defence to mitigate damage even if it's just shield bash.

Sure there is. There are many bars that have their efficiency reduced exponentially by dropping a skill or changing a secondary. There are also many bars that have two or three open slots, but that's not really relevant here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

I know you can use Guardian on other people but most of the damage is focused on the monks

If you get better at prekiting, this is no longer true (or their team spends a LOT of time doing nothing).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

so when you're about to get spiked

What RA are you playing where spikes exist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

would you rather spend one second casting guardian(for it to probably get interrupted in some way) or activate bonneti's instantly and survive the spike with a full bar of energy?

You're not making a good comparison here. If you're only going to consider the ideal situations for bringing a stance, of course it looks better. But there will frequently be physical trains on other team members, or times where you do not have a stance charged because the other team's melee knows how to count. You bring Guardian because stances do not cover those situations, not because it fills the stance niche better than the stance. But it ALSO fills the stance niche, which allows you to run lighter on stances if you're good at Guardian.

Although arguably this is not the comparison you should be trying to make anyway, as if you ask a lot of RA monks what skill they would bring if they had a ninth slot, the answer would very rarely be Guardian (and in most cases, this would be correct, as most people are absolutely atrocious at using it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Not to discourage you because it's nice to see people wanting to prot and watch the field instead of redbarring but how do you do against esurge mesmers and mind blast ele's?

What skill do you think Guardian is replacing that is significantly reducing either caster damage or energy pressure? Not that the standard RA ESurge player actually removes that much energy if you're paying even a little bit of attention.

Wish Swiftdeath · Jun 28, 2010, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Sure there is. There are many bars that have their efficiency reduced exponentially by dropping a skill or changing a secondary. There are also many bars that have two or three open slots, but that's not really relevant here.

In RA I realize that you need SOME FORM of self defence otherwise you're going to get torn to shreds or drain all your monk's energy. Even if I can't sacrifice the attribute points to spec into self defence I bring bash but as a Mesmer I have empathy as well. Mind blast Elementalists bring distortion/cloak, Rangers have stances, Bsurgers have...well Bsurge, Ritualists have weapon of warding and most sins bring blocking stances (but most sins pack so much self survival they don't do any damage). This isn't even naming out Insidious Parasite, Empathy, VoR, Faintheartedness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

If you get better at prekiting, this is no longer true (or their team spends a LOT of time doing nothing).

Prekiting, yes it helps massively and something I do all the time on my mesmer and on pretty much every other monk build that I run but when you have vigorous spirit and bonneti's it makes more sense to autoattack. You're getting healed at least once every 1.5 seconds and any damage that goes through can be negated with one patient spirit. Bonneti's is there and will be built up quickly if you’re autoattacking for when you're under pressure and it gives you blocking as well as energy. Yes it can be removed by wild strike/wild throw etc but you use bonneti's after the sin uses wild strike and the rest of his chain is useless... unless he's running shatter sin but then you just kite and patient. Wild throw is dangerous but it's most commonly run on hammer warriors and dolyak signet is there so you can reflex his kd, if he chooses to wait it out, bonneti's will be recharged before dolyak runs out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

What RA are you playing where spikes exist?

Well firstly I'd like to clarify what I meant by spikes, I was just referring to when a warrior is built and unloads (eviscerate/dismember/devhammer) you can of course count his adrenaline and pre guardian but I find I have to switch to my staff to cast (or cancelcast) Guardian or hope the ranger/mesmer are bad to get it off. I dislike Guardian when playing against esurgers because any idiot can see you swap to a staff and cast guardian, as well as guess when you’re going to cast it. When against esurgers I prefer to sit in my low set and cast, when I’ve been drained out of my low set I can quickly swap to my normal set, do a ¼ cast (vigorous and patient) and swap back with little to no chance of losing any energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

You're not making a good comparison here. If you're only going to consider the ideal situations for bringing a stance, of course it looks better. But there will frequently be physical trains on other team members, or times where you do not have a stance charged because the other team's melee knows how to count. You bring Guardian because stances do not cover those situations, not because it fills the stance niche better than the stance. But it ALSO fills the stance niche, which allows you to run lighter on stances if you're good at Guardian.

I agree my example was a bad one, I was dividing my attention between my laptop and watching the world cup

.

I just find Guardian is not there when you need it most, when you're taking heavy pressure it usually gets interrupted when you do get it off, it gets ripped/drained etc. I just find stances to be more versatile, it's not like GvG where when you're getting whacked on the other monk can alleviate some of the pressure so you don't get your spells dshot. Bonneti's also requires 0 energy and can be activated on the ground so for example if you screw up and put guardian on one target getting beat on while another melee comes and knocklocks you it's not fatal. I realize that it's being seen as a crutch for bad players but that is worst case scenario, best case scenario you just chain it indefinitely because people keep attacking you and you don't have to heal others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

What skill do you think Guardian is replacing that is significantly reducing either caster damage or energy pressure? Not that the standard RA ESurge player actually removes that much energy if you're paying even a little bit of attention.

I usually drop Guardian for a second hex removal because there's nothing I hate more than having my team stacked with hexes and slowly losing the game without me being able to do my job as a monk to keep the team clean and able to kill. I also don't like Guardian because you have to spec into prot solely for it (usually I run about 9 prot when bringing guardian otherwise it's not worth the energy). This effects all of your healing prayers and divine favor attributes (less from WoH, Patient, Vigorous, Spotless etc).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Guardian is a bad skill and you can't win with it, indeed if you're good with guardian you can forgo a stance and bring an extra skill just like if you are amazing with veil and can hold 3 at a time then you probably don’t need another removal. However I see no reason why you should run the build that is harder to play and less flexible unless it's better or you get bored (as I often do).

I don’t claim to be amazing or even good at PvP but that’s just how I feel about Guardian in RA. Although Guardian is a great skill and is used extensively in all forms of PvP, RA monk bars are already crammed enough. A lot of people don’t even run condition removal never mind Guardian and I just don’t see any room in the current meta for it.

Eagerly awaiting you to pick this apart

.

urania · Jun 28, 2010, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

In RA I realize that you need SOME FORM of self defence otherwise you're going to get torn to shreds or drain all your monk's energy. Even if I can't sacrifice the attribute points to spec into self defence I bring bash but as a Mesmer I have empathy as well. Mind blast Elementalists bring distortion/cloak, Rangers have stances, Bsurgers have...well Bsurge, Ritualists have weapon of warding and most sins bring blocking stances (but most sins pack so much self survival they don't do any damage). This isn't even naming out Insidious Parasite, Empathy, VoR, Faintheartedness.

not really.
kiting, using a shield set when not casting and just general good positioning alone already mitigate a LOT of damage. add a minor self heal like e feast on mes, return on nec or mend touch on r and you're set. THAT kind of "self defence" is normal and was common even in organised teams in TA.
but once you spend 2 or more skill slots for self defense in which you even have to spec a fair share of attribute points, its already too much to be considered reasonable self survival.
the bars you listed above none require extra spec in diff attribs nor do they lose ANY of their efficiency by taking that self defense skill.
moreover, the primary task of hexes is by far not self survival.

the biggest problem is 95% of the current RA player base cant even do that.
that is why guardian might seem like a solution for that, but in reality you will be losing with players who cant even do those basic things more than with players who can do that and more, and that without you having guardian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Prekiting, yes it helps massively and something I do all the time on my mesmer and on pretty much every other monk build that I run but when you have vigorous spirit and bonneti's it makes more sense to autoattack. You're getting healed at least once every 1.5 seconds and any damage that goes through can be negated with one patient spirit. Bonneti's is there and will be built up quickly if you’re autoattacking for when you're under pressure and it gives you blocking as well as energy. Yes it can be removed by wild strike/wild throw etc but you use bonneti's after the sin uses wild strike and the rest of his chain is useless... unless he's running shatter sin but then you just kite and patient. Wild throw is dangerous but it's most commonly run on hammer warriors and dolyak signet is there so you can reflex his kd, if he chooses to wait it out, bonneti's will be recharged before dolyak runs out.

its easy if that hammer warrior's/sin's team doesnt do any pressure. at all.
you stil wanna kite away from the hammer for as much as possible thou, unless you're feeling lazy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Well firstly I'd like to clarify what I meant by spikes, I was just referring to when a warrior is built and unloads (eviscerate/dismember/devhammer) you can of course count his adrenaline and pre guardian but I find I have to switch to my staff to cast (or cancelcast) Guardian or hope the ranger/mesmer are bad to get it off. I dislike Guardian when playing against esurgers because any idiot can see you swap to a staff and cast guardian, as well as guess when you’re going to cast it. When against esurgers I prefer to sit in my low set and cast, when I’ve been drained out of my low set I can quickly swap to my normal set, do a ¼ cast (vigorous and patient) and swap back with little to no chance of losing any energy.

the grand majority of idiots doesnt see it, actually.
the more "dangerous" "spikes" are usually just big packets of damage within few seconds that own all the staff-using squishies without any other weapon sets that happily ball with (an)other teammate(s) in the middle of opponent team members, e.g. the destructive was glaive spike with destruction and rupture was soul (this one tears apart all the squishy ball-ups more than anythin else. helps a bit since you see it coming as a mo but can only hope they have at least around 550 hp), then probably any ss rt/a or rt/p (given you dont have deep ench strip on your team or a melee that goes on those squishies) followed by adren unload of a hammer w or evisc axe.

I remember having both of those rits on my team once...killed faster than most other teams i ever had. one of the few RA "spikes" i had that actually worked like a charm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

I just find Guardian is not there when you need it most, when you're taking heavy pressure it usually gets interrupted when you do get it off, it gets ripped/drained etc. I just find stances to be more versatile, it's not like GvG where when you're getting whacked on the other monk can alleviate some of the pressure so you don't get your spells dshot. Bonneti's also requires 0 energy and can be activated on the ground so for example if you screw up and put guardian on one target getting beat on while another melee comes and knocklocks you it's not fatal. I realize that it's being seen as a crutch for bad players but that is worst case scenario, best case scenario you just chain it indefinitely because people keep attacking you and you don't have to heal others.

guardian used to be an amazing skill (and still is in some formats, i suppose) - old-school boon prot and ZB+guard prot days were pretty much the golden days of GW when it came to protting and just general good play - they were FAR less forgiving of mistakes but in exchange granted an immensly bigger reward for good play as the current mo bars do.

now, we use patient and vigorous instead of guardian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

I usually drop Guardian for a second hex removal because there's nothing I hate more than having my team stacked with hexes and slowly losing the game without me being able to do my job as a monk to keep the team clean and able to kill. I also don't like Guardian because you have to spec into prot solely for it (usually I run about 9 prot when bringing guardian otherwise it's not worth the energy). This effects all of your healing prayers and divine favor attributes (less from WoH, Patient, Vigorous, Spotless etc).

in hex-over teams (and i mean REAL hex-over with VoR+empathy+sham+div+(sometimes)backfire mes and soul bind or ce necro with faint and/or insidious OR dual mes builds with covers for empathy/backfire/shame like wastrels), only removals like veil+deny, deny+spotless or to a certain extent, veil and spotless will keep your team clean, given you have at least SOME source of disruption or kd.
veil and cure will crumble to that kind of hex teams because they just wont be able to keep up.

agree with you on the cross spec point thou.

skills like wastrels collapse, stoning on weakened targets, and rupt-loaden mesmer and ranger bars just make 1 sec activation skills obsolete, because almost ANYONE can rupt that, average rupters just have to camp the mo for a while to get it while the better ones just tab around and reflex it easily.
even 3/4 need to be used in an unpredictable pattern against good interrupters, or if that is not possible either fake it, hope for a fast cast or have it interrupted. ofcourse you can say thats an argument in favor for guardian too, but its not, really, because 3/4 is still harder to get without at least a few seconds of camping a target.

Tharg · Sep 13, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

pretty new to PvP / RA. I get comments from team members ranging from 'gg mesmer' to 'mesmer you suck'. So far I have played with a Domination bar, something like:

Me/W
Diversion
Empathy
Energy Burn
Energy Surge (E)
Signet of Disruption
Signet of Distraction
Bonetti's
Res

and with an Illusion bar, something like:
Me/W
Clumsiness
Conjure Nightmare
Frustration
Migraine (E)
Web of Disruption
Cry of Frustration
Bonetti's (or replace with another interrupt)
Res

I put 8 in tactics and have some q7 tactics 15 AR shields that I can switch out depending on the type of expected damage. I am not using Ether Feast because it's not worth the points in Inspiration.

Comments please - other than 'you suck'

?

own age myname · Sep 13, 2010, 10:11 PM // 22:11

It's more how you play the mesmer. Any idiot can go on PvX and grab the latest Mesmer meta, but it's if he runs it right or not that matters.

I Am Not Ok · Sep 14, 2010, 09:55 PM // 21:55

true, there is loads of mesmers in RA that just tab on monk and spam 12345 on recharge

any smart monk will stay on low set/and just cast on 40/40 set, and only dmg u get on you is mind wrack when u swap back, if u dont remove it

one of hardest, and most annoying builds in RA, when playing monk are coward sins, and unblockable pets spammers...

Wish Swiftdeath · Sep 15, 2010, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Am Not Ok

true, there is loads of mesmers in RA that just tab on monk and spam 12345 on recharge

any smart monk will stay on low set/and just cast on 40/40 set, and only dmg u get on you is mind wrack when u swap back, if u dont remove it

one of hardest, and most annoying builds in RA, when playing monk are coward sins, and unblockable pets spammers...

Coward sins are a pain in the ass when decent, it's absolutely hilarious though when trash players run it. I remember I faked this coward sin out 3 times in a row by running and stopping straight away until he died...

Otello · Oct 04, 2010, 12:57 PM // 12:57

This is the build I came out with yesterday by messing up with my air elementalist. I would like to have some feedback to improve it.

1) Arcane echo
2) Glimmering mark (elite)
3) lighting orb
4) whirlwind
5) Glyph of elemental power
6) Aura of restoration
7) Air attunment
8) Ress signet

16 air magic, 12 energy storage

The idea is to spam Glimmering mark on everyone. with 18 air magic it does 290 dmg, if its not removed, armor ignoring.

whirlwind is for self defence from melee, while the orb to finish people.

Suggestions?

galactic · Oct 04, 2010, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otello

This is the build I came out with yesterday by messing up with my air elementalist. I would like to have some feedback to improve it.

1) Arcane echo
2) Glimmering mark (elite)
3) lighting orb
4) whirlwind
5) Glyph of elemental power
6) Aura of restoration
7) Air attunment
8) Ress signet

16 air magic, 12 energy storage

The idea is to spam Glimmering mark on everyone. with 18 air magic it does 290 dmg, if its not removed, armor ignoring.

whirlwind is for self defence from melee, while the orb to finish people.

Suggestions?

drop ur glyph... its probably not worth the slot (3 damage increase per second for glimmering mark)

instead bring shock arrow and drop ur orb for bflash