Curse

own age myname · May 14, 2010, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Just used the HC build posted a few pages back. Must say, that was the funnest I've ever had monking

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Sarevok Thordin · May 15, 2010, 07:43 AM // 07:43

I'd like to state that Forceful blow is a worthy thing to ditch knockdowns for. Such high spammable damage and stance removal makes rangers/monks cry.

Just make sure you got an IMS/IAS.

Zuranthium · May 15, 2010, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

preveiling gives your team an IMMENSE advantage against hexers, given you have some form of disruption in your team that knows what is to be done (be it ranger/mesmer rupts or kds) - without that its unlikely you'll get far to start with. so yes, veil is VERY cruical because it can give your whole team the edge.
also, if shame, bf or vor catches you unenchanted when you're using cop instead of veil you're screwed, if you have around half of hp left.

Your argument is null. If Shame, BF, or VoR is on you when you're not pre-veiled, it's the same thing. You act like you'll always have a pre-veil up, which is hardly the case. I love veil but for RA it simply doesn't get the job done. You need your removal to get around disruption so that it is always going to get off when you need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Quote:

Wild Throw? Dolyak can't be removed. I assume you mean because they'd KD you after Dolyak ends but against a Hammer Warrior you can reflex attack skills with Bonetti's, they attack slow enough for that.

you misunderstood my point.
by sacrificing kiting you leave them to peacefully build up adren on you. good hammers just count to 8 and then use their chain and wild throw your bonnis after you use it. if they cant pose a serious threat in those 10 s of your vulnerability then they're not good to start with.

Again, as I said, when Dolyak ends you reflex their KD with Bonetti's. They won't even be able to use Wild Throw right away because adren won't be built after whiffing on their KD. I suppose there is that 1/4 chance of going through Bonetti's and then you'll be in a bad situation but, tbh, against a Hammer Warrior it should take awhile until you even need to use Dolyak. They only movement buff they have is Enraging, so just let them hit you once and keep running. Unlike Warriors with Rush, you completely negate their damage by kiting. What you can also do is just let them have the Lead KD if nobody on your team will need a WoH in the next several seconds and then use Dolyak...it will get off before they 1/4 knock you with the second KD.

Paddatoochie · May 15, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

I love this build so much.

14 Blood
13 Soul Reaping
3 motivation

N/P

It's Just a Flesh Wound
Masochism
Barbed Signet
Signet of less souls (not sure about this)
Dark Pact
Life Siphon
Opressive Gaze
Res sig

Big pressure and reduces their condition pressure to nothing. Energy is powered by soul reaping and masochism. Rangers do no damage other than their interrupts DW spammers do nothing etc.

Even better when a monk with draw comes along.

Corporeal Ghost · May 16, 2010, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Your argument is null. If Shame, BF, or VoR is on you when you're not pre-veiled, it's the same thing. You act like you'll always have a pre-veil up, which is hardly the case. I love veil but for RA it simply doesn't get the job done. You need your removal to get around disruption so that it is always going to get off when you need it.

Even if you only land 50% of your Veils, Veil is going to benefit your physicals more than Spotless. Contemplate and Veil have the same downside of needing to be up before you're hexed. The difference is that Contemplate is much more defensive in nature; it costs less energy, does not give you a disruptive upside, and cannot clean your physicals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

What is this obsession with Veil in RA from you people?

Spotless is more efficient for removing on other targets

No it isn't. If you're getting this result, you're not using Veil very well. Against hex-heavy teams, I'm almost always maintaining at least one, sometimes as many as three. If the rest of my team can't kill something before I bottom out, we're sure as hell not going to kill anything if I'm reactively removing everything. For the record, one guy usually gets a Spotless maintained also. I think Deny is probably better than Spotless for fighting hexes, but I'm not willing to drop my Draw for it. And I can and will Draw daze to push our DPS higher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yeah, pre-veils at the start of the match can be nice, but often matches tend to go pretty long and that initial removal doesn't add up to match...if you even get it in the first place, since the hexer will probably rip it first.

They should all be covered before you engage. That's half the function of Vigorous. Playing against Strip is pretty frustrating, though. The initial volley is huge. Not only does it determine the momentum for the match, it's also pretty much guaranteed interrupts on all the nasty stuff if you have disruption and they don't have Strip, at which point your team is free to blow up a bunch of squishy targets with recharging skills.

On the other hand, I will leave basically any team that is not capable of pressuring at least one monk out if I'm on monk, regardless of whether I think it can limp to 25 or not. A monk is not a condition for victory; it is a tool to hasten it.

As for Wild Strike...they're using daggers. If they are trying to wait out your stance, whatever it might be, they're not really posing a threat. I'm not even sure that can outpace Vigorous + shield set. On that note, though, you probably shouldn't listen to me too much on this point. I will almost always play Return or Natural Stride because they have offensive utility (Natural Stride's comes by virtue of being DShot's complement). Although I have been known to run Shield Bash because I find it hilarious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

How annoying is R/P Enraged Spearchucker, exactly?

Depends largely on what's on my bar and the composition of the other team. It's a very good pressure-augmenting bar, but is not actually a kill threat by itself. If they have enough damage that a shutdown mesmer would be good in his place, the spearchucker is pretty strong. Sort of like Mindblast, except that you can't randomly lose to Meteor if you stop paying attention. If I'm playing a non-redbar elite, the bar gets significantly more value against me. At that point, it's usually watch the ranger and try to RoF his Enraged, but I can't always spare that much brainpower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by emuking

karla makes it work prty well, she kites a lot

This is so huge. You can get away with stanceless bars fairly easily now that Primal Rage is no longer default. There are some maps that make it much more difficult. Not that it isn't easier to run stances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by emuking

f you dont have rupts on your team, im gonna say spotless is better

Veil is still better. It loses significant value without interrupts, but it's still better at removing the 1-2 hexes that actually matter on the guy's bar. Most of them are just damage, which is really only devastating if they catch you with your pants down or have an incredibly strong team setup. You really just need to hit anything that stops a warrior from Frenzying, decreased attack speed/miss chance, and anything that's going to cause a wipe, and Veil is best at doing that in a timely fashion. And if you're trying to fight against multiple hexers with only one removal, Veil + interrupts is basically your only prayer.

If you've somehow managed to find a team you're happy with that has no physicals, hexes are very underwhelming and you can probably just ignore everything that isn't Domination with pretty good results (but you should still be removing the heavy-hitters to maximize energy).

emuking · May 16, 2010, 07:18 AM // 07:18

faint and insidious are gay, so is that weird spammable clumsiness bar with lyssas aura.. pretty annoying, ive had good veils and good spotless minds from monks. i wouldnt call one better than the other in RA, i just like spotless mind (assuming vig spirit cover also like veil) more cuz it removes 3 hexes. also prespotless before you charge some1 is cool cuz most of them hex you anyway (once again, the setting is RA and the shit bars are being run by shitters)

urania · May 16, 2010, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Your argument is null. If Shame, BF, or VoR is on you when you're not pre-veiled, it's the same thing. You act like you'll always have a pre-veil up, which is hardly the case. I love veil but for RA it simply doesn't get the job done. You need your removal to get around disruption so that it is always going to get off when you need it.

as a matter of fact, i AM preveiled for as long as possible vs a dom mesmer.
another important feature of veil over spotless is you can maintain it on multiple players and hence have a far greater hex control over more people unlike the case with spotless is.
moreover, there is no doubled cast time on spotless as there is on veils. as already said, in a good team that feature gives you an immense advantage over the hex team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Again, as I said, when Dolyak ends you reflex their KD with Bonetti's. They won't even be able to use Wild Throw right away because adren won't be built after whiffing on their KD. I suppose there is that 1/4 chance of going through Bonetti's and then you'll be in a bad situation but, tbh, against a Hammer Warrior it should take awhile until you even need to use Dolyak. They only movement buff they have is Enraging, so just let them hit you once and keep running. Unlike Warriors with Rush, you completely negate their damage by kiting. What you can also do is just let them have the Lead KD if nobody on your team will need a WoH in the next several seconds and then use Dolyak...it will get off before they 1/4 knock you with the second KD.

i somehow doubt you faced many good hammer warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Even if you only land 50% of your Veils, Veil is going to benefit your physicals more than Spotless. Contemplate and Veil have the same downside of needing to be up before you're hexed. The difference is that Contemplate is much more defensive in nature; it costs less energy, does not give you a disruptive upside, and cannot clean your physicals.

No it isn't. If you're getting this result, you're not using Veil very well. Against hex-heavy teams, I'm almost always maintaining at least one, sometimes as many as three. If the rest of my team can't kill something before I bottom out, we're sure as hell not going to kill anything if I'm reactively removing everything. For the record, one guy usually gets a Spotless maintained also. I think Deny is probably better than Spotless for fighting hexes, but I'm not willing to drop my Draw for it. And I can and will Draw daze to push our DPS higher.

They should all be covered before you engage. That's half the function of Vigorous. Playing against Strip is pretty frustrating, though. The initial volley is huge. Not only does it determine the momentum for the match, it's also pretty much guaranteed interrupts on all the nasty stuff if you have disruption and they don't have Strip, at which point your team is free to blow up a bunch of squishy targets with recharging skills.

well said, glad to see i dont have to repeat myself for i am certain this all has been discussed often enough in the past.

as important as a monk may be (considered), they arent worth a dime if they dont enable their team to execute their roles properly (by removing all hinderance [foremost hexes] as soon as possible). and vice versa.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

On the other hand, I will leave basically any team that is not capable of pressuring at least one monk out if I'm on monk, regardless of whether I think it can limp to 25 or not. A monk is not a condition for victory; it is a tool to hasten it.

As for Wild Strike...they're using daggers. If they are trying to wait out your stance, whatever it might be, they're not really posing a threat. I'm not even sure that can outpace Vigorous + shield set. On that note, though, you probably shouldn't listen to me too much on this point. I will almost always play Return or Natural Stride because they have offensive utility (Natural Stride's comes by virtue of being DShot's complement). Although I have been known to run Shield Bash because I find it hilarious.

a way of the assassin sin (possibly with conjure) using wild strike (the unblockable chain with golden phoenix etc) tends to do more dps than a normal warrior does and is hence really annoying to deal with, especially because dagger base damage is fairly low in comparison to attack skill damage bonus so you arent reducing THAT much damage on your shield set.
I wont ever forget dual (smited) shattering sin teams in TA when they'd hit you for 90 in shield set with their duals. true horror.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Depends largely on what's on my bar and the composition of the other team. It's a very good pressure-augmenting bar, but is not actually a kill threat by itself. If they have enough damage that a shutdown mesmer would be good in his place, the spearchucker is pretty strong. Sort of like Mindblast, except that you can't randomly lose to Meteor if you stop paying attention. If I'm playing a non-redbar elite, the bar gets significantly more value against me. At that point, it's usually watch the ranger and try to RoF his Enraged, but I can't always spare that much brainpower.

a r/p beast master with enraged lunge was the meta in a hexway and still works fairly well in a team with good disruption, but otherwise, no ty.

RhanoctJocosa · May 16, 2010, 03:02 PM // 15:02

karla seriously, how do you play with so many veils up? i can monk pretty well keeping veil up for maybe 2-3 mins but after that i get completely destroyed. please impart your wisdom on me

Reezen · May 16, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

I tried to get my paragon rolling in RA, so I came up with this build, which does quite nicely, imo.

P/R

Spear Mastery 12+1+1
Command 9+1
Leadership 9+1
Wilderness Survival 3

Apply Poison
Burning Spear
Spear of Redemption
Stunning Strike [E]
Anthem of Weariness
Aggressive Refrain
Never Surrender!
Resurrection Signet

With this build you get access to a very powerful daze with multiple cover conditions, respectable damage output, built-in blind counter and additional defensive utility via weakness and Never Surrender! which is nice to relieve a bit pressure.

Replace Never Surrender! with Merciless Spear if you want a bit more offense and coverage with Deep Wound.

Another upside is that people tend to pester me much less than my warrior with all kinds of hexes, probably the "meh it's only paragon lol" effect taking place. Great for getting monks surprised with covered daze - less experienced ones tend to die rather easily even from your damage alone.

Downsides - if you die - it is really hard to recover thanks to energy costs of Aggressive Refrain and Apply Poison.

urania · May 16, 2010, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

karla seriously, how do you play with so many veils up? i can monk pretty well keeping veil up for maybe 2-3 mins but after that i get completely destroyed. please impart your wisdom on me

wel i rarely maintain 3 veils for more than 2 mins (unless energy allows it); but usually i keep at least one or two up for as long as possible.

it doesnt always pay off and it can backfire on you sometimes, but in a good team it should be enough to give it the edge.

and its no wisdom, really. just charge bonnis asap and it becomes quite easy.

Corporeal Ghost · May 17, 2010, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

a way of the assassin sin (possibly with conjure) using wild strike (the unblockable chain with golden phoenix etc) tends to do more dps than a normal warrior does and is hence really annoying to deal with, especially because dagger base damage is fairly low in comparison to attack skill damage bonus so you arent reducing THAT much damage on your shield set.
I wont ever forget dual (smited) shattering sin teams in TA when they'd hit you for 90 in shield set with their duals. true horror.

Emphasis mine. This is exactly what I was talking about above. If he's not actively using his chain on you, you aren't taking damage. Thus, he has to blow his Wild Strike before you stance, or you just aren't taking enough damage to need a stance unless you're being trained by something else as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i somehow doubt you faced many good hammer warriors.

In RA? I played RA for over an hour yesterday for the first time in months. The best hammer warrior I ran into killed himself on my Empathy when I Ether Feasted instead of eating his post-Bash Bull's.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJacosa

I'd like to state that Forceful blow is a worthy thing to ditch knockdowns for. Such high spammable damage and stance removal makes rangers/monks cry.

I think I prefer Whirling Axe if I really want that effect. The damage on the skill is quite a bit lower, but I find I have higher DPS on the bar. I can't ever make energy on hammer bars work without compromising their effectiveness severely. Crushing Blow is a beating on energy, there is no Zealous set to bail you out. I guess I could blow a spot on Auspicious, but in RA, I'm generally using Bash on recharge.

RhanoctJocosa · May 17, 2010, 03:12 AM // 03:12

^ wrong quote :P forceful sucks.

Sankt Hallvard · May 17, 2010, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

I think I prefer Whirling Axe if I really want that effect. The damage on the skill is quite a bit lower, but I find I have higher DPS on the bar. I can't ever make energy on hammer bars work without compromising their effectiveness severely. Crushing Blow is a beating on energy, there is no Zealous set to bail you out. I guess I could blow a spot on Auspicious, but in RA, I'm generally using Bash on recharge.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/any_Forceful_Warrior

Who here has tested this extensively? The DPS is way higher than the axe equivalent, but spikes slower obviously. It feels a bit "clumsy", you lose your shield and are more vulnerable to lineback. But energy is really not an issue.

urania · May 17, 2010, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

In RA? I played RA for over an hour yesterday for the first time in months. The best hammer warrior I ran into killed himself on my Empathy when I Ether Feasted instead of eating his post-Bash Bull's.

my comment was aimed at Zuranthium.

superraptors · May 17, 2010, 10:11 AM // 10:11

spotless isnt tjhat good tbh, id rather run deny hexes with divine spirit, and if ur using it on a 4040 divine set, it rlly is gg vs hexways.

2 hexremovals on the spot, is more crucial than the wait for spotless, not to mention u can also cast on urself. Also spotless can be removed so u may not get the full benefit

cop is not a good skill anymore. if ur not enchanted its not going to do anything vs hexspam, and like u said u gonna get stripped of ur enchants so why would u use it anyways. In every way it is worse then veil

as for veil, rlly good if its covered with like a vigorous vs hexes at start to reduce their hexspam, but i reckon in long run when the match gets tight, and ur low on energy hard to maintain, and not people switch to a staff set to fc it or fast recharge so not rlly good when thing gets bad/

I think the cure/deny hex combo is best for hex removals in ra currently. cure owns bf and vor, deny keeps ur warriors clean better then spotless, and backup hex removal for urself

Sethellington · May 17, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/any_Forceful_Warrior

Who here has tested this extensively? The DPS is way higher than the axe equivalent, but spikes slower obviously. It feels a bit "clumsy", you lose your shield and are more vulnerable to lineback. But energy is really not an issue.

Trouble is, this is a build using a Hammer that has no more KDs than the axe equivalent...

Symbol · May 17, 2010, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Who here has tested this extensively? The DPS is way higher than the axe equivalent, but spikes slower obviously. It feels a bit "clumsy", you lose your shield and are more vulnerable to lineback. But energy is really not an issue.

I don't know about "extensively", but when I've been using this bar a lot in RA, and it's really strong when kept clean.

For the people who say, "it's a hammer bar with only one KD", keep in mind that before the update hammers did not have:
1. An adrenal deep wound which doesn't require a KD

2. Ridiculous energy management to allow free use of frenzy and prot strike.

Neither of these things are true anymore. It really shouldn't be compared to whirling axe, because the two bars aren't in the same universe as far as damage goes. Bulls -> forceful,fierce,prot is an instakill from anything less than half health on a squishy and the pressure you get just from spamming forceful and prot is unreal. Being able to force kills through stances is golden too.

Zuranthium · May 18, 2010, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Contemplate and Veil have the same downside of needing to be up before you're hexed. The difference is that Contemplate is much more defensive in nature; it costs less energy, does not give you a disruptive upside, and cannot clean your physicals.

You're leaving out a whole heap of arguments in favor of Contemplate - #1 it is a 1/4 activation, #2 - it is not a spell (therefore not triggering Backfire), #3 - it can remove covered hexes off you, #4 - it also removes conditions and heal. It's pretty common for Mesmers to bring Wastrel's Demise now to cover the VoR/Backfire. If you have Vigorous Spirit on yourself beforehand, you can throw up a Patient and then use CoP to get the buried hex off.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

What is this obsession with Veil in RA from you people?

Spotless is more efficient for removing on other targets

No it isn't. If you're getting this result, you're not using Veil very well. Against hex-heavy teams, I'm almost always maintaining at least one, sometimes as many as three. If the rest of my team can't kill something before I bottom out, we're sure as hell not going to kill anything

Yes, it is. Again, you're leaving out the extremely important argument of cast time. Spotless will hardly ever be interrupted, whereas Veil is one of those things people will wait to get. You can't just maintain Veils like that either and expect to hold up. They may have considerable pressure from non-hex sources as well. I find your last line to be very inaccurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

They should all be covered before you engage. That's half the function of Vigorous. Playing against Strip is pretty frustrating, though. The initial volley is huge. Not only does it determine the momentum for the match, it's also pretty much guaranteed interrupts on all the nasty stuff if you have disruption and they don't have Strip, at which point your team is free to blow up a bunch of squishy targets with recharging skills.

The old tactic of having everyone with Veil covered by Vig going into the match is not nearly as effective anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corporeal Ghost

A monk is not a condition for victory; it is a tool to hasten it.

Not really. Matches are pretty much all attrition. It comes down to numbers...who is doing the most damage vs. the amount prevented/healed over time. There are no quick RA matches if it's 2 good teams.

Ariena Najea · May 18, 2010, 06:51 AM // 06:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:W/any_Forceful_Warrior

Who here has tested this extensively? The DPS is way higher than the axe equivalent, but spikes slower obviously. It feels a bit "clumsy", you lose your shield and are more vulnerable to lineback. But energy is really not an issue.

I played it for a few hours some weeks ago, and also felt it clumsy. The extra damage I was taking compared to Axe was problematic (bad RA Monks) and the health loss from no shield made it harder to score kills under Empathy/Insidious without getting too low. Fierce Blow feels a lot like Gash which I have never liked, simply because it is conditional and has to come after Forceful Blow, making it easy to see coming. Overall, I felt less useful than if I'd brought my usual Dev Hammer or Whirling.

In retrospect, there are some handy things I missed. First, you can lineback some with Forceful's weakness like Dev Hammer. Second, Auspicious lets you bring out blocking stances that you can then end with Forceful to finish with Prot Strike, gaining a guaranteed extra hit with +damage and AP. Lastly, I was running this with Shock originally, which is part of why it felt awkward. The extra damage is more valuable on this bar than the extra knockdown, particularly since dual anti-kd is now meta on Monk bars. These bars require Bonetti's to keep up with energy demands, and ending it early makes Monks cry.

As for Veil, I stopped bringing all the blood spammers showed up, since nearly all of them bring Strip Enchantment. With Patient typically the only other enchantment on my bar, there is no way to cover Veil effectively, even from bad players. I've also noticed a huge decrease of hexers since the blood spammers started arriving (no coincidence), and rarely encounter Shame/Diversion anymore. Contemplate is also good for dealing with SW Sins before Bonetti's is up at the start of a match, as well as dealing with Deep Wound / Daze covered by an Oppressive Gaze stack. As for enchantments getting stripped pre-CoP, Vigorous and Patient are 1/4 casting time, so they aren't hard to put up. If they have enough hexers that this is a problem, they probably don't have any frontliners to do real damage, or a Monk. This means your team should either be able to hold out near indefinitely in the first case, or roll them.

urania · May 18, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

You're leaving out a whole heap of arguments in favor of Contemplate - #1 it is a 1/4 activation, #2 - it is not a spell (therefore not triggering Backfire), #3 - it can remove covered hexes off you, #4 - it also removes conditions and heal. It's pretty common for Mesmers to bring Wastrel's Demise now to cover the VoR/Backfire. If you have Vigorous Spirit on yourself beforehand, you can throw up a Patient and then use CoP to get the buried hex off.

in other words, if you're low (120< hp) you'll still die if your bf gets covered.

you can use deny on yourself in case you didnt drop veil fast enough or if you didnt maintain it on yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Yes, it is. Again, you're leaving out the extremely important argument of cast time. Spotless will hardly ever be interrupted, whereas Veil is one of those things people will wait to get. You can't just maintain Veils like that either and expect to hold up. They may have considerable pressure from non-hex sources as well. I find your last line to be very inaccurate.

spotless might not get rupted, but it can very well be removed.

and his last line is quite accurate, because if a team cannot accomplish anything when clean for 2-3 mins (vs another good team) chances you will wipe are fairly considerate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

The old tactic of having everyone with Veil covered by Vig going into the match is not nearly as effective anymore.

and why's that? the only counter veil+vig argument i can come up with is rend/strip ench which applies for cop and spotless just as much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Not really. Matches are pretty much all attrition. It comes down to numbers...who is doing the most damage vs. the amount prevented/healed over time. There are no quick RA matches if it's 2 good teams.

i.e. who can disrupt most hexes and also d shot or shutdown word in one way or the other vs who doesnt. veil gives you a huge edge on the former whilst cop might give you a slight edge on the latter (at least after the innitial few mins of the match).