Curse

Corporeal Ghost · May 10, 2010, 02:32 AM // 02:32

If you want to actually remove hexes, you should bring Veil. Similarly, if you want to actually remove conditions, draw is the best (of the non-elites). Concessions to interrupts are fine, I guess. Just be aware that's what you're doing. Most of the time, I'd rather lose the occasional four minute match by having my Veil interrupted several times and be able to win the streak of one-and-a-half minute matches because when I get my once-a-week decent frontline he's absolutely clean all game, even if I have to push to 0/72.

urania · May 10, 2010, 07:49 AM // 07:49

I have swapped to wary stance instead of doliaks sig alltogether a few weeks ago and I dont think im ever going back to doliaks.
Wary stance is the true ruler or RA. In combination with bonettis, its only unblockable sin chains that you have to be afraid of, really.

Zuranthium · May 10, 2010, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Bonetti's Defense and Wary Stance together makes little sense. Dolyak (or Balanced Stance) prevents caster KDs and also allows you to cast while providing the defensive benefit. You need to have that capability or else you're speccing too much for self-prot against melee and leaving yourself prone to other threats. Even against an all melee team both Bonetti's and Wary together isn't as good if they are decent players; they will train other people on your team and you won't be able to constantly stay in Bonetti's/Wary, as you'll need to be casting.

urania · May 10, 2010, 06:10 PM // 18:10

it makes a lot of sense, especially because a few blocks in wary stance usually charge bonettis fully or close to that.
however, often you really need an on-demand guaranteed block, especially to avoid dazes.
but more importantly, wary stance is the true bane of chain attack combos, be it hammer/axe warriors or sins. its also great against rangers (apart from mb rangers, at least), dervs and paras thou.
on a side note, how is taking doliaks signet a sign of lesser anti melee spec than wary stance? (sure, it works on non melee kds and while you're in bonettis, but thats about it) in an era of sw sins wary stance definately takes the cookie.
try it and see for yourself.

Sethellington · May 10, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

it makes a lot of sense, especially because a few blocks in wary stance usually charge bonettis fully or close to that.
however, often you really need an on-demand guaranteed block, especially to avoid dazes.
but more importantly, wary stance is the true bane of chain attack combos, be it hammer/axe warriors or sins. its also great against rangers (apart from mb rangers, at least), dervs and paras thou.
on a side note, how is taking doliaks signet a sign of lesser anti melee spec than wary stance? (sure, it works on non melee kds and while you're in bonettis, but thats about it) in an era of sw sins wary stance definately takes the cookie.
try it and see for yourself.

So what's your main bar then? And atts? I suppose you're running 8 tactics for the wary stance break, unless you're only running 5.

Bobby2 · May 10, 2010, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Question for all you leet Monks posting here...

How annoying is R/P Enraged Spearchucker, exactly?

Zuranthium · May 11, 2010, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

it makes a lot of sense, especially because a few blocks in wary stance usually charge bonettis fully or close to that.
however, often you really need an on-demand guaranteed block, especially to avoid dazes.

Daze from what? Overbearing Smash? That's why you have Dolyak (or Balanced Stance). You also have the option of removing Daze from yourself with CoP on my bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

but more importantly, wary stance is the true bane of chain attack combos, be it hammer/axe warriors or sins. its also great against rangers (apart from mb rangers, at least), dervs and paras thou.

How is it great against rangers? Wary Stance is up for 4 seconds and costs 10 energy. That's a huge investment. If the Ranger simply uses his brain and doesn't try to interrupt you for a few seconds, your 10 energy went to shit. It's not like against a melee where you can reflex the attacks by pressing Wary Stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

on a side note, how is taking doliaks signet a sign of lesser anti melee spec than wary stance? (sure, it works on non melee kds and while you're in bonettis, but thats about it) in an era of sw sins wary stance definately takes the cookie.

A good Seeping Wound Assassin with Wild Strike will screw you if you're bringing 2 stances. All he has to do is get the lead off, wait until you use bonetti's, and then Wild Strike. Having Wary Stance to cover yourself is very insufficient. You can't cast while Wary Stance is up or else it ends. Dolyak and Balanced Stance are better because you can actually cast while they provide the protection.

Sethellington · May 11, 2010, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

A good Seeping Wound Assassin with Wild Strike will screw you if you're bringing 2 stances. All he has to do is get the lead off, wait until you use bonetti's, and then Wild Strike. Having Wary Stance to cover yourself is very insufficient. You can't cast while Wary Stance is up or else it ends. Dolyak and Balanced Stance are better because you can actually cast while they provide the protection.

Sure a good SW sin will, but then how many are actually very good? I'd say of the people that play RA, ~75% use an exact premade build, 15% test builds that fail but keep playing them anyway, and the rest are people who know what they're doing and either create new builds or change templates to be more effective. Now of the 4 SW "Great" builds on wiki, 3 with daggers, none of them take wild strike, and on the spear sin wild throw is only an optional. So around 80% of the time, if you see SW pop up on you, if you mash Wary Stance straight away the sin tends to get off atleast the lead and off-hand before he realises he's failing. Similar with a Hammer war - if you see him charging adrenaline on you (or another target then switiching to you), if you keep his bar on your screen, you have plenty of time to get up Wary Stance while he's activating DH and usually he'll try and get off CB too.

urania · May 11, 2010, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Daze from what? Overbearing Smash? That's why you have Dolyak (or Balanced Stance). You also have the option of removing Daze from yourself with CoP on my bar.

lets see..spear swipe, stunning spear, temple strike, a casual bha even here and there.
on a side note, overbearing smash is unblockable.

cop is nice and all, but you had to remove either hex removal such as veil or defense for it, and for me thats too big of a disadvantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

How is it great against rangers? Wary Stance is up for 4 seconds and costs 10 energy. That's a huge investment. If the Ranger simply uses his brain and doesn't try to interrupt you for a few seconds, your 10 energy went to shit. It's not like against a melee where you can reflex the attacks by pressing Wary Stance.

very simple - when you are low on hp they WILL try to rupt you and thats where wary stance comes in - if they dont then the end result is the same - you can hold out for a while longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

A good Seeping Wound Assassin with Wild Strike will screw you if you're bringing 2 stances. All he has to do is get the lead off, wait until you use bonetti's, and then Wild Strike. Having Wary Stance to cover yourself is very insufficient. You can't cast while Wary Stance is up or else it ends. Dolyak and Balanced Stance are better because you can actually cast while they provide the protection.

they dont get their lead off, so they dont cripple you, so you can kite away.
if they're waiting with their wild blow you can wait too abd use it after.
believe it or not, but you should use your brain too when you use stances.
In essense, you're paying only 5 energy for wary stance vs a sw sin, because you gain 5 energy and some adren from blocking their lead attack.

and no, balanced stance is no better vs wild blow sins or wild throw hammers - its actually far inferior to doliaks as well as wary stance.

I've had others try out wary stance and all liked it greatly.

so far, the only sin that can own wary stance is the one that owns any stance - the unblockable chain with wild blow and shattering assault or way of the sin. but thats when your team should step in.

at the end of the day it doesnt really matter what you run and what i run as long as we're both comfortable with it and can make the most out of it. (;

RhanoctJocosa · May 11, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Question for all you leet Monks posting here...

How annoying is R/P Enraged Spearchucker, exactly?

imo, monks crumble vs that bar because they overheal way too much and run out of energy. it's pretty lame but it's not that bad tbh. on mo i'm much more scared of the SaO bar since it's frkn huge condi pressure and if you aren't built to handle it you're pretty much fkd.

Cantos · May 11, 2010, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Question for all you leet Monks posting here...

How annoying is R/P Enraged Spearchucker, exactly?

I always play PnH in RA, and I rely heavily on Guardian. Enraged Lunge is bad for me, because I lack strong redbar, and it ignores Guardian. Don't play it, it's a really shallow bar. Hope this helps.

FlexBuffchest45 · May 12, 2010, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Question for all you leet Monks posting here...

How annoying is R/P Enraged Spearchucker, exactly?

If they have decent pressure along with the pet it can be pretty lame.

Zuranthium · May 12, 2010, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

lets see..spear swipe, stunning spear, temple strike, a casual bha even here and there.
on a side note, overbearing smash is unblockable.

Oh, yeah, overbearing being unblockable makes Wary Stance even worse. As for the rest, the combination of Bonetti's and CoP takes care of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

cop is nice and all, but you had to remove either hex removal such as veil or defense for it, and for me thats too big of a disadvantage.

1 second casts blow. I don't find Veil to be worth using in RA. Maybe you like being interrupted by bots, though?

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

very simple - when you are low on hp they WILL try to rupt you and thats where wary stance comes in - if they dont then the end result is the same - you can hold out for a while longer.

Not really. It requires the 10 energy to put Wary Stance up in the first place. You can't afford to use 10 energy and just hope for the best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

they dont get their lead off, so they dont cripple you, so you can kite away.
if they're waiting with their wild blow you can wait too abd use it after.
believe it or not, but you should use your brain too when you use stances.
In essense, you're paying only 5 energy for wary stance vs a sw sin, because you gain 5 energy and some adren from blocking their lead attack.

Eventually they will get their lead off. When they do, you'll be trained until you use Bonetti's at which point it will come off right away. You can use Wary to block their first Dual immediately, but then a couple seconds later you'll be prone to them going through the chain again as Lead + Offhand + Twisting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and no, balanced stance is no better vs wild blow sins or wild throw hammers - its actually far inferior to doliaks as well as wary stance.

I never said it was. I bring Dolyak over B-stance for a reason.

B-stance IS better against (good) melee that don't have stance removal, though. Why? Because smart melee will adjust as soon as they see you have Wary Stance. They'll train you when Bonetti's isn't built and they won't throw attack skills into Wary Stance. If a Coward Warrior is training you, Wary Stance won't do anything. B-stance will prevent a lot of damage, however. The prevention of critical hits is significant.

And, aside from all that, knockdown prevention is very important. You need a way to avoid KDs from things like Shock/Meteor. There's no point in leaving yourself open to shutdown. Wary Stance will own bad players harder but that ultimately doesn't mean much.

urania · May 13, 2010, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Oh, yeah, overbearing being unblockable makes Wary Stance even worse. As for the rest, the combination of Bonetti's and CoP takes care of it.

its trickier to use since you have to get the kd skill itself instead of acting reactively.
and as i already said, cop is ncie and all, but having no veil makes you only half a monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

1 second casts blow. I don't find Veil to be worth using in RA. Maybe you like being interrupted by bots, though?

thats why you preveil and avoid the rupts at the start of the match, if nothing more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Not really. It requires the 10 energy to put Wary Stance up in the first place. You can't afford to use 10 energy and just hope for the best.

you dont "hope for the best" (thats what you do with bonettis more than wary stance, actually). you use it in a way that will guarantee at least a 5 energy return. its harder to use right than doliaks. or to be more exact, its less forgiving of mistakes and misjudgments than doliaks or balanced stance are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Eventually they will get their lead off. When they do, you'll be trained until you use Bonetti's at which point it will come off right away. You can use Wary to block their first Dual immediately, but then a couple seconds later you'll be prone to them going through the chain again as Lead + Offhand + Twisting.

sure, they might get it off if you're busy casting or just not careful enough.
thats when you either use it to block the offhand ie. temple strike or golden skull strike) or their dual attack - its possible to figure out what they're running from what their lead is and/or the hexes they use on you.

one dual attack block charges around half of bonettis, so a few more spear hits and boni is charged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I never said it was. I bring Dolyak over B-stance for a reason.

i know your reasons, but i also believe avoiding damage is better than tanking it in doliaks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

B-stance IS better against (good) melee that don't have stance removal, though. Why? Because smart melee will adjust as soon as they see you have Wary Stance. They'll train you when Bonetti's isn't built and they won't throw attack skills into Wary Stance. If a Coward Warrior is training you, Wary Stance won't do anything. B-stance will prevent a lot of damage, however. The prevention of critical hits is significant.

thats why you use wary stance when attacks are bound to land - after shock/bulls, (often) after you stop kiting, when your hp is low and they're bound to try and d chop word or just finally get a chain off etc.
melee can be smart, but so can you be.

i had the courtesy of playing vs TWO coward warriors in one team yesterday. the start was pretty sloppy because fear me of the one who was on me would own me, so i really couldnt risk it with wary stance, but eventually, i got a few blocks on his d chop and trill of victory which built up bonnis and after that, it was easy. especially when both went on me =P.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

And, aside from all that, knockdown prevention is very important. You need a way to avoid KDs from things like Shock/Meteor. There's no point in leaving yourself open to shutdown. Wary Stance will own bad players harder but that ultimately doesn't mean much.

its not really meteor thats a problem here. its more kds such as iron palm, gale, shock etc., basicaly all non physical kds you can come up with - but being totally imobile for 8 seconds had proved to be a great disadvantage in several cases, especially vs good hammers with wild throw.

also, you dont leave yourself often to shutdown as much as you believe.
ive ran doliaks for months if not years, but i still prefer wary stance atm.
i like kiting around more instead of staying in the center of battle (or else some of your teammates are bound to run out of your range) tanking in doliaks.

Sarevok Thordin · May 13, 2010, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Why are we back to the backbreaker sin thing again....only with warriors..

Jeydra · May 14, 2010, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Tried Wary Stance on your recommendation Karla, and after some confusion (I didn't know it ended when you used a skill and was wondering where the stance removal on the other team was, lol) I've decided it's not worth it. Problems:

1. 10 energy to put up. If under pressure you may have to switch off shield set to do it. I don't like this, even if you can regain the energy for it.
2. Doesn't do anything to caster damage.
3. You can't use it when taking heavy damage. Well you could, but you can't cast anything after it. Like you said if you are low on health Rangers will attempt to interrupt you etc so you can put up Wary Stance. Then what? You can put up the stance but you can't cast. You are already low on health. You HAVE to cast or die. You could use Wary Stance to cover WoH when you're getting up after a KD for example, but that's still 10 energy to cover a skill you could've covered with Shield Bash or even Disciplined / Shield Stance.

I think unless there's something major for me to learn about using Wary Stance (admittedly, I didn't use it much) I'd stick to Shield Bash + Disciplined.

muhahaha · May 14, 2010, 04:35 AM // 04:35

1st of all: No veil in RA is suicide. Someone gets a FC diversion in and your team blows up.

Wary stance is sick if you are fast with weapon swapping, but i prefer shield bash most of the time simply because the disable portion really makes my day. Dolyak is good in armor stacking monks with like +15 AL in condi armor, +5 AL spear, 8 tactic shield just because it can make you have warrior armor vs all damage and make kiting pointless.

The old shield bash + 4s disciplined stance combo was amazing, but bonnetis is not that bad at all in RA since i've gone from 0/72 to full before.

Zuranthium · May 14, 2010, 05:29 AM // 05:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

and as i already said, cop is ncie and all, but having no veil makes you only half a monk.

thats why you preveil and avoid the rupts at the start of the match, if nothing more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by muhahaha

1st of all: No veil in RA is suicide. Someone gets a FC diversion in and your team blows up.

What is this obsession with Veil in RA from you people?

Spotless is more efficient for removing on other targets and CoP is better for self removal because it won't be interrupted or trigger Backfire. Yeah, pre-veils at the start of the match can be nice, but often matches tend to go pretty long and that initial removal doesn't add up to match...if you even get it in the first place, since the hexer will probably rip it first.

Watching the Mesmer closely and casting patient or vigorous after they rip your existing vigorous but before the hex lands, in order to use CoP, is far less prone to shutdown.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

you dont "hope for the best" (thats what you do with bonettis more than wary stance, actually). you use it in a way that will guarantee at least a 5 energy return. its harder to use right than doliaks. or to be more exact, its less forgiving of mistakes and misjudgments than doliaks or balanced stance are.

This makes no sense to me. Wary Stance costs 10. You can't use it to guarantee even a 5 energy return 100% of the time. For example, if a sin runs right up to you and Bonetti's isn't built, the choice is to either use Wary Stance immediately or to try and reflex his first attack skill. If the Sin is smart he won't attack immediately (after figuring out your defense network), so this means you either just blew 10 energy on Wary Stance or it means you have to wait to try and reflex his lead, in which case good luck reflexing Black Mantis Thrust. I don't use bots.

Bonetti's and Dolyak cost nothing. You don't lose anything by using them. No matter what the situation is they are free, which is incredibly important (can fire them off when 0 energy on Shield Set).

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i know your reasons, but i also believe avoiding damage is better than tanking it in doliaks.

Oh, but you do avoid damage by tanking in Dolyak. The sad thing about Vigorous Spirit is it rewards you for not kiting (ditto for Bonetti's because you want to be constantly throwing your spear when not casting). You get 20 health at least every 1.5 seconds and with all of your natural armor in shield set + armor from Dolyak + not being able to be KDed + constantly recharging Bonetti's by standing still and spearing, it prevents quite a bit more damage than attempting to kite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

i had the courtesy of playing vs TWO coward warriors in one team yesterday. the start was pretty sloppy because fear me of the one who was on me would own me, so i really couldnt risk it with wary stance, but eventually, i got a few blocks on his d chop and trill of victory which built up bonnis and after that, it was easy. especially when both went on me =P.

Or you could have just stood there and tanked under Vigorous Spirit and built Bonetti's up quickly and not have had to worry in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

its not really meteor thats a problem here. its more kds such as iron palm, gale, shock etc., basicaly all non physical kds you can come up with - but being totally imobile for 8 seconds had proved to be a great disadvantage in several cases, especially vs good hammers with wild throw.

Wild Throw? Dolyak can't be removed. I assume you mean because they'd KD you after Dolyak ends but against a Hammer Warrior you can reflex attack skills with Bonetti's, they attack slow enough for that.

emuking · May 14, 2010, 06:50 AM // 06:50

if RA is your setting you have to keep in mind a lot of people dont even know the skill description for wary stance... people didnt know bonettis for a lil bit cuz they never played cyclone axe glad def troll farming crap back when only proph existed. wary stance is a "new skill" in the arena and a large amount of people cant recite the skill description "not surprisingly"

karla makes it work prty well, she kites a lot. also veil was nice when i was on ranger and i was one of the lucky one who got the preveil on my team

If you dont have rupts on your team, im gonna say spotless is better.. but its random right?

urania · May 14, 2010, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

What is this obsession with Veil in RA from you people?

Spotless is more efficient for removing on other targets and CoP is better for self removal because it won't be interrupted or trigger Backfire. Yeah, pre-veils at the start of the match can be nice, but often matches tend to go pretty long and that initial removal doesn't add up to match...if you even get it in the first place, since the hexer will probably rip it first.

Watching the Mesmer closely and casting patient or vigorous after they rip your existing vigorous but before the hex lands, in order to use CoP, is far less prone to shutdown.

because good veil work is part of the heart of (good) monking.
as i already mentioned before, preveiling gives your team an IMMENSE advantage against hexers, given you have some form of disruption in your team that knows what is to be done (be it ranger/mesmer rupts or kds) - without that its unlikely you'll get far to start with. so yes, veil is VERY cruical because it can give your whole team the edge.
also, if shame, bf or vor catches you unenchanted when you're using cop instead of veil you're screwed, if you have around half of hp left.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

This makes no sense to me. Wary Stance costs 10. You can't use it to guarantee even a 5 energy return 100% of the time. For example, if a sin runs right up to you and Bonetti's isn't built, the choice is to either use Wary Stance immediately or to try and reflex his first attack skill. If the Sin is smart he won't attack immediately (after figuring out your defense network), so this means you either just blew 10 energy on Wary Stance or it means you have to wait to try and reflex his lead, in which case good luck reflexing Black Mantis Thrust. I don't use bots.

ive met a few smarter sins that stopped using attack skills right away and the catch against those is to let yourself get a bit lower on hp - none can really resist spamming their chain then.
if you miss black mantis (it's better if you dont, but shit happens), you can always wait for their dual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Bonetti's and Dolyak cost nothing. You don't lose anything by using them. No matter what the situation is they are free, which is incredibly important (can fire them off when 0 energy on Shield Set).

oh i know they're both free and thats why ive been using them for a long, long time. but as already said, vs sins and decent hammers i prefer wary stance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Oh, but you do avoid damage by tanking in Dolyak. The sad thing about Vigorous Spirit is it rewards you for not kiting (ditto for Bonetti's because you want to be constantly throwing your spear when not casting). You get 20 health at least every 1.5 seconds and with all of your natural armor in shield set + armor from Dolyak + not being able to be KDed + constantly recharging Bonetti's by standing still and spearing, it prevents quite a bit more damage than attempting to kite.

i know how that works.
i still prefer wary stance at the moment for reasons given in my previous posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Or you could have just stood there and tanked under Vigorous Spirit and built Bonetti's up quickly and not have had to worry in the first place.

i can do that with wary too, but i wanted to avoid fear me as much as possible because i was maintaining 3 veils at the time (against the opponent's mesmer). once i dropped a few things became easier.

Wild Throw? Dolyak can't be removed. I assume you mean because they'd KD you after Dolyak ends but against a Hammer Warrior you can reflex attack skills with Bonetti's, they attack slow enough for that.[/QUOTE]

you misunderstood my point.
by sacrificing kiting you leave them to peacefully build up adren on you. good hammers just count to 8 and then use their chain and wild throw your bonnis after you use it. if they cant pose a serious threat in those 10 s of your vulnerability then they're not good to start with.