Curse

TheOneMephisto · Jul 11, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

and i'd post an assa build without any of the black line skills but..i forgot half the bar. lmao. :< was moebius as well, dual stance removal, pretty neat.

Something like, leaping, wild, death blossom, moebius, impale, wild blow, siphon speed/dash/ddagger/utility, res sig?

lacasner · Jul 11, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Sins don't need more straight offhand, they need lead-offhand-dual that doesn't suck horribly.

Golden phoenix strike sucks, so that contributes to the problem.

In the sense of just dual attacks, why would I want lead+4 more attack skills so i can use 2 dual attacks just as BoS and twisting fangs when I can do that with only 4 attack skills in the first place? That extra skill slot is valuable, so I'm not sure what Anet could do to really change this.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 11, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Golden phoenix strike sucks, so that contributes to the problem.

In the sense of just dual attacks, why would I want lead+4 more attack skills so i can use 2 dual attacks just as BoS and twisting fangs when I can do that with only 4 attack skills in the first place? That extra skill slot is valuable, so I'm not sure what Anet could do to really change this.

The point is that lead-offhand-dual should be comparable to off-hand-dual-offhand-dual. As in something like leaping-wild-blossom-impale should compete with lotus-twisting-spider-steel.

Mekkakat · Jul 11, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

2 RA builds i use the most (got me to glad 4 lmao) set atts accordingly to your taste.

A/xxx "the Cork"

[skill]disrupting stab[/skill]
[skill]exhausting assault[/skill]
[skill]moebius strike[/skill]
[skill]horns of the ox[/skill]
[skill]shadow walk[/skill]
[skill]dash[/skill]
[skill]shadow refuge[/skill]

Me/xxx (op Mo) "Caster Melter"

[skill]augury of death[/skill]
[skill]energy surge[/skill]
[skill]energy burn[/skill]
[skill]shatter enchantment[/skill]
[skill]spiritual pain[/skill]
[skill]unnatural signet[/skill]
option (i use wastrels or remove hex, its all up to you)

my sin is very successful, and i've never used BLS in my personal builds. i hate bursters, and i hate people that can't figure other, or more in depth uses for skills.

Riotgear · Jul 11, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

In regards to the lead-offhand-dual mess, a large part of the problem is that duals are so disparate in their power that everything else is practically just fluff to get to them. Leads are always going to be skipped even if they're good as long as they're just another attack getting in the way of a KD or DW that get two chances to succeed, or Blades of Steel smacking the target for around 200 damage.

Asking for better leads and lead-requiring offhands is sort of like warriors asking for more sword attacks to use between Cripslash and Gash.

Patccmoi · Jul 11, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

In regards to the lead-offhand-dual mess, a large part of the problem is that duals are so disparate in their power that everything else is practically just fluff to get to them. Leads are always going to be skipped even if they're good as long as they're just another attack getting in the way of a KD or DW that get two chances to succeed, or Blades of Steel smacking the target for around 200 damage.

Asking for better leads is like a sword warrior asking for more skills to stick in their chain before Gash.

The thing with leads and offhands is that they need to be made viable skills on their own and not just 'way to get to a dual attack'.

Atm they absolutely aren't. Either their effect sucks, or their recharge sucks, or they just don't deal enough damage, etc.

Look at Dervish attack skills for instance. Most are 5/4, with decent +damage (a bit less, but it's on a Scythe) and utility like cripple, deep wound, heals you, 'instant attack', etc. Lead and offhands need to be as strong as any other attack skills so that they're useful on their own.

And considering they're on dagger, a good attack damage range would be something like 20..52. It wouldn't hurt a caster anymore than a sword or axe attack skill does, and the auto-attack on daggers is attrocious to compensate. It would just hit warriors a bit harder than other weapons can, but they're meant to. Have them at 5/4, with this kind of damage and interesting utility, and now they're skills you want on your bar. And lead-offhand-dual doesn't become a chain that absolutely must be respected to achieve anything, your lead and offhand themselves can be used for utility and spike assist, etc. Ofc it's nice to have access to a dual afterwards, but even if you don't reach the dual your first hits achieved something themselves. And they're on a recharge that mean they're usable to pressure some too.

Izzy said they're having some skills in GW:EN meant to improve lead-offhand-dual combos on sin, but i really hope they won't wait till then to do something about it. Just minor tweaks to a bunch of lead and offhands could totally change the usable combos, and tons of changes like that were proposed time and time again. Some of those changes just need to be adopted at some point.

Master Ketsu · Jul 11, 2007, 06:42 AM // 06:42

OACjEyiLpNXuu5yscOOJeYbBAA

Fun rit build, can really own when you time it right.

Riotgear · Jul 11, 2007, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

The thing with leads and offhands is that they need to be made viable skills on their own and not just 'way to get to a dual attack'.

Atm they absolutely aren't. Either their effect sucks, or their recharge sucks, or they just don't deal enough damage, etc.

I realize that, but my point is that duals are going to need to come down in power if everything else is going to go up. If you want to compare assassin attack skills to other classes' attack skills, then compare Blades of Steel and you'll find what I'm pretty sure is the highest-damaging ability in the game, and it's a 5-energy non-elite.

With skills that deal the kind of payload that duals currently do, they're really the meat and potatoes of a chain and anything before them is a hindrance. Sort of the same way Sever Artery is mostly just a primer for Gash. And similarly, people don't like "primers" for the money skills, so they run Eviscerate instead. Ask yourself why no one ran Cripslash before the buff and you'll find why leads are never going to be viable with the current "get to duals ASAP" design.

There are only two real solutions. Either:
- Nerf duals and buff leads and offhands so that they have comparable value in their skill slots.
- Make lead-skips significantly more expensive and clunky than they are now, especially Black Lotus Strike.

ice_ftw · Jul 11, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

E/A "Noob blindbot"

OgdTgWm155cowSYNsDW3QrKAAA

12 Dagger Mastery
11+2 Air Magic
6+1 Energy Storage

Shock
Falling spider
Horns of the Ox
Moebius Strike
Death Blossom
Conjure Lightning
Storm Djinn's Haste
Resurrection Signet

Equipment:
Health armor (Blessed Chest)
+15^50% Shocking Daggers of Fortitude +30
Sword +5e +30 & Shield +30 (when not hitting with daggers/under heavy pressure)
Some random Air wand and off-hand (to avoid leavers, lol)

Basically pick a target and spam Horns and DB with Moebius. Catch kiting targets with Storm Djinn's. Works as a linebacker and is also decent at killing healers with constant disruption and the good dps from Moebius and Conjure. Fun build that actually isn't that bad.

R/P "Chucker"

OgkjYlXZJPA5eDReInrpNbGBAA

9+2 Beast Mastery
9+1 Expertise
12 Spear Mastery

Barbed Spear
Disrupting Lunge
Disrupting Throw
Merciless Spear
Rampage as One
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Resurrection Signet

Equipment:
Energy armor (Blind reduction, Beastmasters chest)
+15^50% Zealous Spear of Fortitude +30 & Shield +30 20% Blind reduction (main set)
+15^50% Ebon Spear of Fortitude +30 & Shield +30 20% Blind reduction (when not in combat/when attacking a warrior)

My version of the popular Spear chucker. Mad disruption and dps with pet and you hammering with RaO, half-decent player can take any non-prepared monk out by disabling ZB and then interrupting any silly guardians/mending touches the monk might try to cast. The deep wound from merciless spear is really surprising when you manage to pull it off and if you're unsure of your reflexes you can just use both disrupting lunge and throw at the same time after landing the deep wound for (usually) guaranteed interrupt. Make good use of pet control (for example lock pet to a kiting monk and just spam dlunge and pressure some squishy target, when the monk stops to cast ZB or whatnot the spell usually gets interrupted and disabled).

moko · Jul 11, 2007, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mekkakat

2 RA builds i use the most (got me to glad 4 lmao) set atts accordingly to your taste.

A/xxx "the Cork"

[skill]disrupting stab[/skill]
[skill]exhausting assault[/skill]
[skill]moebius strike[/skill]
[skill]horns of the ox[/skill]
[skill]shadow walk[/skill]
[skill]dash[/skill]
[skill]shadow refuge[/skill]

Me/xxx (op Mo) "Caster Melter"

[skill]augury of death[/skill]
[skill]energy surge[/skill]
[skill]energy burn[/skill]
[skill]shatter enchantment[/skill]
[skill]spiritual pain[/skill]
[skill]unnatural signet[/skill]
option (i use wastrels or remove hex, its all up to you)

my sin is very successful, and i've never used BLS in my personal builds. i hate bursters, and i hate people that can't figure other, or more in depth uses for skills.

to the sin, no deepwound? i'd either go for twisting instead of ox, think i ran it in TA with twisting, deepwound spam is kinda fun also. (you already have teleport and speedboost so you might not need the [very very conditional] kd.) or kicking your selfheal for impale - best suggestion imo, dash and shadow walk is all you need to survive on most maps if you're good. (teleport from top, return to top, run out of range, repeat, all ta maps allow it somewhere, just let your team know.)

mesmer: how's the energy?

Quote:

Something like, leaping, wild, death blossom, moebius, impale, wild blow, siphon speed/dash/ddagger/utility, res sig?

aye.

Riotgear · Jul 11, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

to the sin, no deepwound? i'd either go for twisting instead of ox, think i ran it in TA with twisting, deepwound spam is kinda fun also

For an RA build? More like drop Shadow Walk + Dash for Siphon Speed + Impale.

moko · Jul 11, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

For an RA build? More like drop Shadow Walk + Dash for Siphon Speed + Impale.

i find dash to be better than siphon in RA, if you don't need the hex that is. shadow walk is really good because every map allows a teleport from and back to a safe distance again.

and shadow refuge is kinda terrible anyways. :/

Patccmoi · Jul 11, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I realize that, but my point is that duals are going to need to come down in power if everything else is going to go up. If you want to compare assassin attack skills to other classes' attack skills, then compare Blades of Steel and you'll find what I'm pretty sure is the highest-damaging ability in the game, and it's a 5-energy non-elite.

With skills that deal the kind of payload that duals currently do, they're really the meat and potatoes of a chain and anything before them is a hindrance. Sort of the same way Sever Artery is mostly just a primer for Gash. And similarly, people don't like "primers" for the money skills, so they run Eviscerate instead. Ask yourself why no one ran Cripslash before the buff and you'll find why leads are never going to be viable with the current "get to duals ASAP" design.

There are only two real solutions. Either:
- Nerf duals and buff leads and offhands so that they have comparable value in their skill slots.
- Make lead-skips significantly more expensive and clunky than they are now, especially Black Lotus Strike.

I agree with lead-skips dropping in power mostly. I think that straight offhands should if possible do nearly no damage (except like Palm Strike and maybe Falling Spider though it could be reduced slightly too). Something like +1..13..16 maybe, or not even that much. The fact that they do MORE damage than most offhands with similar recharge and much better effect for the blacks is just retarded. It makes it flatout stupid to go for lead-off-dual when you compare.

I don't think the duals should go down in power so much. They'd still require 1-2 skills to reach which IS a significant limitation. If your primers are worth it at skill themselves, i don't think it's so bad. As you say, people run Cripslash, and it's pretty much a stronger primer for Gash. i wouldn't mind running something like Black Mantis-Wild Strike-Death Blossom if it dealt +20..52 damage on both first hits. The full combo wouldn't be so far below the damage of offhand-dual-offhand-dual (you'd miss about the damage of 1 hit from a dual, even less if straight offhands are nerfed) and you'd have a much much better recharge on it, which would be its advantage over it.

And Mokone, for the Moebius build posted by Mekkakat, i ran Moebius for a good while in RA and i obviously didn't care about DW much. Moebius-Horns is all-in-all much more powerful to have when you face just 1 monk, cause if you knock him once below 50%, he's done. You'll just horn-lock him to death. What i don't like personally about the build is just how there's no other dual at all (personally i ran DB + Horns, which i prefer to DB + Twisting, though if possible i fit DB, Horns and Impale), which kinda makes it hard to reach 50% damage with your chain to have Moebius recharging your Horns. DStab-EA-Moebius-Horns won't ever do 50% damage to anyone.

glountz · Jul 11, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

I agree with lead-skips dropping in power mostly. I think that straight offhands should if possible do nearly no damage (except like Palm Strike and maybe Falling Spider though it could be reduced slightly too). Something like +1..13..16 maybe, or not even that much. The fact that they do MORE damage than most offhands with similar recharge and much better effect for the blacks is just retarded. It makes it flatout stupid to go for lead-off-dual when you compare.

One thought I have is to make every lead a 0.5 or 0.75 attack (as many warrior's attacks).
This way they will actually be worth it so a combo lead-offhand-dual-whatever will compete with 2*offhand-dual, as lead-offhand-dual combo would be very quick to unleash.

I Brother Bloood I · Jul 11, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

W/Mo

Frenzy
Bulls Strike
Rush
Eviscerate[E]
Agonizing Chop
Executioners Strike
Purge Signet
Resurrection Signet

12+3+1 Axe Mastery
12+1 Strength

Shield Of Deflection[E]
Signet Of Devotion
Gift Of Health
Reversal Of Fortune
Dismiss Condition
Spirit Bond
Deny Hexes
Glyph Of Lesser Energy

12+1+1 Prot
9+1 Heals
9+1 Divine

Good syncer pair purge is mostly for large stacks(like more than 3) and migraine.

Amras · Jul 12, 2007, 12:59 PM // 12:59

With the upcoming event I'm going to start playing RA again.
What builds are mainly used for monking now, since boonprot has been nerfed?

Mekkakat · Jul 12, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

to the sin, no deepwound? i'd either go for twisting instead of ox, think i ran it in TA with twisting, deepwound spam is kinda fun also. (you already have teleport and speedboost so you might not need the [very very conditional] kd.) or kicking your selfheal for impale - best suggestion imo, dash and shadow walk is all you need to survive on most maps if you're good. (teleport from top, return to top, run out of range, repeat, all ta maps allow it somewhere, just let your team know.)

mesmer: how's the energy?

aye.

while sins are pretty much fantastic at putting in a nice DW to finish their enemies, i find much more utility in a build that can more effectively shut someone down with no drawbacks and or danger to yourself. the chain (with 2 sets of HotO) kills any 60 AL target in one combo, and if its a monk, and you know what you're doing, they will not be able to heal at all ( not to mention the rest of your team will be helping). if its say a warrior, be smart, dont try to "out damage" the warrior, because he'll chop you one, so instead, practice learning around what red bar you can attack, and by that what i mean is, get the 60/70 ALs, they're simple, you'll make them mad, and probably quit (remember, this is ra lol), and you can move target to target with zero downtime if you plan your skills usage and timing correctly. when you see your warrior and or paragon enemy's hp bar go below about 75%, you can endlessly combo him to death, with absolutely no chance of his survival unless you didn't kill the healer, and even then, i've taken plenty out with even 2 monks on their backs. Moeb/HotO keeps YOU safe, and them dead/dying. you cant be killed when the guy trying to kill you it taking a nap :P.

also, i know shadow ref isnt.. great.. but its also used the wrong way most of the time. its a precast move, meaning, make sure you use it before you attack, not while in limbo waiting for your next strike. use shadow ref, target, shadow walk, combo (s m a r t c o m b o, dont just pop off your moves, most of the time i throw in just regular stabs to throw off protting and block skills), retreat and or continue to attack others. its a fun build with a ton of utility that can singlehandedly hold a team at ransom. (i've done it MANY times, this is my MAIN RA build, and im r6 now.)

as for the mes build i posted, you'd be shocked (i freaking was), that the energy, is like.. fantastic with smart skill use. its instantaneous caster death, with a cute AoE, and even better... the ability to shoot DW EVERYWHERE. aug is sweet, and unnatural sig is sweeter. watch a rit or two cower as you maim their entire defense line with one skill, or even spiritual pain their whole team into submission. the full combo is almost like a sins attack chain, and as long as they have the energy for you to burn off (casters, sins, dervs), you can kill anything with less than 650hp in one combo, which with fastcasting (plus after cast) is about 2.5/3.1 seconds. if they have an enchantment.. well.. then its so easy, its .. well.. easy.. the energy is all there, and make sure to have a high and low set for your pool, cause other mes are gonna hate you fast.

and btw, imo HotO is the best conditional move in the game next to soothing memories. HotO is so easy to land even if the enemy is with darn near high five range of their own allies. as long as they aren't practically touching each other, you can get the KD.

try em' out mokone, it might not be your style, but it is mine, and i just thought i'd post it for you guys to know whats out there. have fun!

R A N D O M · Jul 12, 2007, 05:57 PM // 17:57

a/w shroud of silence assassin-OwFj0pe7oOhsxHZ+glAfz3OBAA tiger stance is an optional skill really-it can be used as feigned neutrality or shadow refuge or anything you want
[skill]Shroud of Silence[/skill] [skill]Tiger Stance[/skill] [skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill] [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] [skill]Impale[/skill] [skill]Signet of Toxic Shock[/skill] [skill]Siphon Speed[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
yes i know im prob gonna be flamed by my use of black spider strike..

TheOneMephisto · Jul 12, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by R A N D O M

a/w shroud of silence assassin-OwFj0pe7oOhsxHZ+glAfz3OBAA tiger stance is an optional skill really-it can be used as feigned neutrality or shadow refuge or anything you want
[skill]Shroud of Silence[/skill] [skill]Tiger Stance[/skill] [skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill] [skill]Death Blossom[/skill] [skill]Impale[/skill] [skill]Signet of Toxic Shock[/skill] [skill]Siphon Speed[/skill] [skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]
yes i know im prob gonna be flamed by my use of black spider strike..

Why are you using tiger stance? It only affects 2 attack skills, so it doesn't really speed up your combo that much. A utility skill like ddagger or dash or something would be much better there.

R A N D O M · Jul 12, 2007, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Why are you using tiger stance? It only affects 2 attack skills, so it doesn't really speed up your combo that much. A utility skill like ddagger or dash or something would be much better there.

well i DID say it was optional and iv always used tiger stance though i do swap it out for something like feigned neutrality. ill have to try ddagger out tho