Curse

bhavv · May 31, 2012, 08:09 PM // 20:09

I dont see why people are so fussed over shockwave, why are you letting enemy ellys get close enough to you to cast it? If you are melee and you see an Earth elly, pick another target. Stay away from the Shockwave.

I prefer running dual attunement Earth spike to shockwave anyway, or shatterstone and mind burn spikes. Everytime I try shockwave, its almost impossible to stay close enough to good players to fully triger it, unless I add a shadowstep and shock.

Stoning is more of a problem than Shockwave is, it sould have its recharge increased a bit to 8 seconds.

DiogoSilva · Jun 01, 2012, 01:22 AM // 01:22

1. Because spamming stoning and your opponent (especially your monk) having to cast urgent spells inbetween will make for an easy Shockwave target. And if they're an ele or necro? Good luck casting 2s spells and running away from a (good) SWer near you.

2. Because if it makes melee stop attacking you, it already doubles (triples?) as a protection skill, giving you less pressure to cast your spells.

3. Because you can just move to the melee foe. Really. What will the opponent do? Interrupt their attack chain/ KD-lock just to run away from you? Grats. Take a huge spike + blind + weakness + KDs to follow? Grats.

4. While a strong pvp profession like a mesmer is about observing the battle and disabling huge (spellcasting) threats, an elementalist SWer is single/ AoE spiking everything while disabling huge (melee) threats.

5. Because in RA's tight maps, melee and spellcasters staying close to each other is extremely common, and any kiting can lead to a potential ball.

6. Because of the above statement, SW is also excellent at feeding Stoning.

7. Because it's almost impossible in RA's format to get a team of four players that can perfectly manage to waste half their time dodging and still effectively use their skills to win battles. All it takes is one less skilled player at that to get spiked, and quickly the battle becomes a 4vs3 even before that fellow dies.

8. Because it's the best way by far (outside of playing as a monk) to farm for gladiator, as the above points I wrote mostly apply to good players, and bad players come balling in mass most of the matches.

Point 5-8 are vital points, and mostly the reason of why SW is only OP in this format, while mostly negleted in others.

While there are many bad players who are easy SW targets, several people here imply that all SWers are bad and predictable as well, which hardly proves anything.

I personally don't even cast SW half the times I get close to good player. I let them run away as I spam stoning over and over (while running to them as well, if not changing my targets), and it's essencially 3vs4, until they eventually decide to stop being dead bags, start to use a few skills, and I shockwave their faces.

But I agree stoning is a bigger issue, as that thing is not only really strong by itself (needs a higher recharge), but it has tons of synergy with shockwave. It's the combination of both that mostly lead to the build's powercreep in the RA format.

bhavv · Jun 01, 2012, 10:01 AM // 10:01

So basically everyone is blaming bad players for Shockwave being OP?

Ok then, nerf Lava Font too, because when melees attack me and I cast it, they just stay in it and die with the rest of my spike on top.

Coast · Jun 01, 2012, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Lava font is 2sec cast+doesn't blind or weaken a melee, so ur almost dead before u even get to cast ur lava font thing, also vigirous spirit.
Or u'll just get it rupted right of the bat, or kded or anything rly.
edit: gonne stop argue with idiots, toodles

bhavv · Jun 01, 2012, 11:15 AM // 11:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

Lava font is 2sec cast+doesn't blind or weaken a melee, so ur almost dead before u even get to cast ur lava font thing, also vigirous spirit.
Or u'll just get it rupted right of the bat, or kded or anything rly.

Absolutely not. I've tried it enough times, you would be REALLY surpised to how badly it beats melees with the rest of my fire bar on top.

Shockwave only inflicts its maximum damage and conditions if you are right next to the elly casting it, and if you're playing a melee character, why exactly are you doing that? If melees arent attacking me, Shockwave is incredibly difficult to hit melees that are chasing after other party members. Its really just a crutch of an elite that is not the reason for why the Earth bar is so powerful, Stoning is the reason for that. Dual Attunement Geo elly, or Stone Sheath are both equally viable while keeping the stoning spam just as strong, the reason why geo ellys are overpowered and currently the meta is Stoning, not Shockwave. People just use shockwave as their elite because PVX wiki tells them to.

If Shockwave and the damage from it is your primary reason for running a shockwave elly in RA, Starburst / PBAOE will actually be a lot better for that role. Its even funnier that I've seen several ellys in RA running Shockwave together with Tenais Cystals / Crystal wave, in which case they obviously arend bothered about the conditions at all and should simply roll a Starburst build instead.

Premium Unleaded · Jun 01, 2012, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Stoning 1.5s cast/7s recharge
Remove weakness application from Shockwave so it's possible to prevent the easy chaining KD.

Sorted.

superraptors · Jun 02, 2012, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Absolutely not. I've tried it enough times, you would be REALLY surpised to how badly it beats melees with the rest of my fire bar on top.

Shockwave only inflicts its maximum damage and conditions if you are right next to the elly casting it, and if you're playing a melee character, why exactly are you doing that? If melees arent attacking me, Shockwave is incredibly difficult to hit melees that are chasing after other party members. Its really just a crutch of an elite that is not the reason for why the Earth bar is so powerful, Stoning is the reason for that. Dual Attunement Geo elly, or Stone Sheath are both equally viable while keeping the stoning spam just as strong, the reason why geo ellys are overpowered and currently the meta is Stoning, not Shockwave. People just use shockwave as their elite because PVX wiki tells them to.

If Shockwave and the damage from it is your primary reason for running a shockwave elly in RA, Starburst / PBAOE will actually be a lot better for that role. Its even funnier that I've seen several ellys in RA running Shockwave together with Tenais Cystals / Crystal wave, in which case they obviously arend bothered about the conditions at all and should simply roll a Starburst build instead.

sir im going to stop you right there before you fire off your shit cannon again, you don't need to dignify yourself by writing a whole paragraph on your opinion that holds the same value as dirt on a beggars boot.

let me be blunt and save you the tl dr

star burst is crap, a warrior will just turn around and thump the shit out of the starburst ele and kill him in 2 seconds and it also has pitiful damage.
this is why people run shockwave because a warrior will have to be much more weary.

no shit people run shockwave for the damage, its a strong spike skill, dishes out atleast 100-150+ damage and yes people don't kite.

inflicts 3 conditions which is easily better than most elite skills in the elementalist line.

and its pretty clear why stoning is powerful because have you ever thought of what powers it? weakness.

weakness is the meta not stoning.

a recharge on ebonhawk/stoning or a nerf on shockwave & stonesheath applying weakness would be better.

Aida · Jun 10, 2012, 08:05 AM // 08:05

This build is essentially everything the old dervish sandstorm build was combines into one skill and while that build wasn't that powerful it still was a decent enough build that it got played. Now when you think about a build that took the entire bar to function correctly and with some skill to pull it off right and now theres 1 skill that does that entire bar with the rest of the bar accessible for other things (namely ebon and stoning) which both those skills themselves are pretty powerful and probably need some addressing as well we start to see the sight of the problem. I think a slight increase to recharge/cost of SW will balance that out fine. And a slightly longer recharge on stoning or lower the damage of stoning to something dumb so it acts mainly as a KD and not big damage+KD would do the trick there.

bhavv · Jun 12, 2012, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

no shit people run shockwave for the damage, its a strong spike skill, dishes out atleast 100-150+ damage and yes people don't kite.

Lol. Damage wise Starburst + Inferno >>> Shockwave. Starburst inflicts its full damage in area range, Shockwave only does full damage in adjacent range.

It hardly dishes out that much damage, unless you arent bringing your 'Like a Rolling Stone' shield set. If people are running Shockwave for the damage, they are doing it wrong / have the wrong mindset.

The power in the Shockwave build is the conditions and stoning, not in the damage numbers.

I suppose the OPness of the damage is due to too many people playing casters without shield sets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

weakness is the meta not stoning.

Two skills beat that and any other condition reliant build - Draw Conditions and Mending Touch. Lots of Monks are also currently running a new meta restore conditions build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

star burst is crap, a warrior will just turn around and thump the shit out of the starburst ele and kill him in 2 seconds and it also has pitiful damage.

Without a healer, the same will happen to any ele. Im assuming that the group has a competent healer, otherwise youre not going to survive most ele builds.

superraptors · Jun 13, 2012, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Lol. Damage wise Starburst + Inferno >>> Shockwave. Starburst inflicts its full damage in area range, Shockwave only does full damage in adjacent range.

It hardly dishes out that much damage, unless you arent bringing your 'Like a Rolling Stone' shield set. If people are running Shockwave for the damage, they are doing it wrong / have the wrong mindset.

The power in the Shockwave build is the conditions and stoning, not in the damage numbers.

I suppose the OPness of the damage is due to too many people playing casters without shield sets.

Two skills beat that and any other condition reliant build - Draw Conditions and Mending Touch. Lots of Monks are also currently running a new meta restore conditions build.

Without a healer, the same will happen to any ele. Im assuming that the group has a competent healer, otherwise youre not going to survive most ele builds.

oright you sacrifice 2 skill slots just for greater damage, superb logic there son.

no shockwave is op in terms of both its damage and conditions.

monks don't carry teams, its called a team for reason, doesn't matter how many condition removals you bring.

no it doesn't happen to any ele, i have seen teams of 4 eles go for easily steam roll teams with monks just by button mashing.

Lynie · Jun 13, 2012, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Earth elementalists are nowhere near OP, you can dodge everything, take anti KD, and they don't deal much damage either. Each time I get such an elementalist in random arena I just have to sigh; they can seem to be OP, but only if you don't dodge and stand in shockwave.
However, stone sheat is great in GvG but I would not consider it OP either.

DiogoSilva · Jun 13, 2012, 12:33 PM // 12:33

^You can't dodge everything. A good elementalist will at least hit half the time with Stoning, or always if they're close to you, their Shockwave will at least hit for weakness to fuel Stoning, and the chances that all your other teammates are as skilled as you are slight to none in RA. I think I've only seen an handful of teams this entire time that were all fully skilled at dodging earth, and about half of them still lost against my team, and my Shockwave was still a vital spike and Stoning a ridiculous annoying random-rupter spike.

Also, melee can not evade when they are attacking. They can attempt to rupt you, but you'll simply activate your block stance. Especially funny if it makes your attacker get KDed. Bum, Shockwave. Or a beautiful Return to teleport to your pressured ally or your melee team mate, and more Shockwave spam, while the poor melee is crippled behind.

I sometimes run Thunderclap in RA because of its awesome versatility, even though PvX has trashed it, and I can get really good results. But outside of not being evadable, Shockwave just trumps it in powercreep alone. I also sometimes run Double Dragon fire builds to great success, instead of Mind Blast builds (just take the non-elite fire energy spell), and that skill is great both for DPS and as an indirect defense. But even in that aspect, Shockwave trumps it. Mind Blast is excellent for its energy management, Rodgort's spam, Distortion, etc, but Shockwave builds have infinite energy unless countered, kill faster, and disrupt and spam conditions in addition to that. Mind Shock is a very interesting elite, but if you can play well and hit with your Stoning most of the time, Shockwave trumps Mind Shock in acessibility alone due to the lack of exhastion, and the same applies to Invoke+Gale builds.

Skillfully used, it's the best ele's build for RA.
Not skillfully used, and against all other players at equal skill level, which are the majority of RA's playerbase, it's the single best build in the entire format.

Lynie · Jun 13, 2012, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Earth eles have a lot of counters, more than any other ele. This is what balances out earth eles in my opinion, and fire eles still pull up way more damage and have stabilized energy. Most melees have IMS's, they can therefore run out of shockwave quicker than you think.
Also, it is rather obvious that earth eles are powerful against warriors with frenzy on that don't move or dodge, but that doesn't make them OP, it just makes your warrior bad.

DiogoSilva · Jun 14, 2012, 12:33 AM // 00:33

But will your warriors run away with a KD-block stance? Or will anyone run away with a sudden Return shadow step? Can anyone even properly evade Stoning at close range, outside of monks who bring Balanced Stance?

Earth eles have a lot of counters, but they also have a lot of ways to counter those counters.

Honestly, a nerf to Stoning's recharge would balance out the entire build more than a nerf to Shockwave, because Stoning as it is now is far more mindless to use even against good players. A possible (and simple) nerf to Shockwave, without even needing to split it, is to switch weakness with cracked armor, so the former only applies at nearby range, while the later at area range. This way, it would be much easier to evade weakness, which is the more problematic condition here.

It would still be a strong build balanced by many counters, but it would require more skill to counter those counters.

|VoID| · Jun 14, 2012, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynie

Earth eles have a lot of counters, more than any other ele. This is what balances out earth eles in my opinion, and fire eles still pull up way more damage and have stabilized energy. Most melees have IMS's, they can therefore run out of shockwave quicker than you think.
Also, it is rather obvious that earth eles are powerful against warriors with frenzy on that don't move or dodge, but that doesn't make them OP, it just makes your warrior bad.

Try to dodge 2-3 stoning at time, or 2-3 shockwave at time and then come back here and post your results.
Also fire ele damage is pretty negated by a shield set.

Jeydra · Jun 23, 2012, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by |VoID|

Try to dodge 2-3 stoning at time, or 2-3 shockwave at time and then come back here and post your results.
Also fire ele damage is pretty negated by a shield set.

Staple Fire spells Immolate and Rodgort's Invocation inflict burning -> ignores armour.

You try winning 1v2s or even 1v3s and then come back here and post your results. There are arguments to nerf Earth Elementalists, but what you're writing are not them.

|VoID| · Jun 23, 2012, 10:30 AM // 10:30

I was replying to the fact that he said that only bad players can't dodge stones, which of couse isn't true. You should read everything before replying. Ah and I lol @ all the fire eles in RA, 120 damage / 25 energy on caster set is pretty cool.

Lucas13 · Jun 30, 2012, 05:57 PM // 17:57

You understand earth eles must be nerfed when you see 7 people of 10 playing it in RA.
Period.

Missing HB · Jul 01, 2012, 08:03 AM // 08:03

That's exactly that. Fact is that it's really a boring and unfun build to face, and especially you can just lose to it because that ele was camping 40/40 set with no risk, because you didn't get fast cast when you needed it, you missed a dodge, etc...

Even yesterday in Codex, upon 5 teams, 5 had exactly the same ele bar which was a similar one to that earth ele..

Winner · Jul 17, 2012, 08:38 AM // 08:38

I think the stone sheath is the only "op" skill. One click and 2 people get massive defense (weakness wins). Shockwave and other ele skills are bad, and good player will avoid them without any problem. All in all, eles are alright, I think the game is quite balanced at this point. Too bad it will die soon.