Curse

Renowned Spartan · Aug 21, 2012, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Disclaimer:

Yes, I understand this game's popularity is declining with each day closer we get to the release on the 25th. That being said, please do not waste my time nor anyone else's in here with regards to flaming/turning down ideas with a "oh you're a scrub!" or "no that makes an elite title easier!" type of argument. That is a garbage approach and will be reported to moderators (those that still care) on here.

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That being said, GvG is still fairly active for this last MAT. Just a quick glance at the ladder shows that there will be a decent amount of teams able to compete in the MAT if they so choose and have accumulated enough QP's. Nevertheless, some fat needs to be trimmed and these ideas should help improve a format that I suspect will probably carry on after the release of GW2. I am pulling that theory from polling guildies, opponents, and general casual GvG'ers that I talk to on a fairly often basis.

Idea 1:

Lower rating requirement for the champ title. Currently only the top 10 guilds have a rating high enough (1200+) to attain champ points towards your title. Yes, with winning (even against crap teams) comes rating. But the amount of teams playing has decreased and thus the chance of gaining rating as fast as oh..say..2006-9 has also slowed down. This is proportionate ratio. Less guilds = less chances to gain rating.

Currently the 40th ranked guild in the game has a 1071 rating at 12-1. Make champ point range from 1080-1100 and higher. This will ensure that guilds will have to either win consecutively against other ranked (whether crappy or good) guilds without losing OR play a bunch more and keep their win to loss ratio up as in the past. Top 10 for champ point range is not acceptable.. And for the record, I'm in champ point range, so QQ'ers exit stage left. Less guilds playing with proper champ point rating lessens the possibility of acquiring a title. You can liken this to decreasing the population of Norn title qualifying creatures in PvE but still somehow expecting people to achieve a title or enjoy the game while doing it.

Idea 2:

Populate AT's. AT's have been dead for a while..maybe a year or two now. You usually get at least 3-4 resign guilds in there just to get the tournament to get pushed through. The solution? Offer partial champ points for victories in the daily AT's. Fractions of victories going towards your overall champ title will encourage more players to participate in these and in turn weed out resign guilds needed currently for AT's to happen. And for people who enter forfeit guilds just to boost their own title? There are ways to link the two. Add a report feature if it is suspected and proper action can be taken. Otherwise, if this is too big of a pain in the ass like I suspect it will be due to the decreased staffing of GW1..offer no partial credit for wins that are because of a forfeit or henchway. Partial points will also ensure for all you "DON'T MAKE THE TITLE EASIER NUB!!" idiots out there that there won't be inflation of scrubs getting champ titles (something usually used to measure skill and experience) because it will still take a fairly decent amount of wins if you're not in champ range and only AT'ing for partials credit. Suggest a ratio of about 2 wins in an AT = 1 champ point or .75.

Idea 3:

Get rid of the 7 day rule for two or more players in order to compete in an AT. This game is not active enough to support that. There are many people that Guild hop, as in any game, but Guild Wars 1 is not at a point in it's MMORPG life where it can lay perameters down that obviously cannot be followed. Either decrease this or do away with it all together. Leave the 7 Day rule up for four players for MAT because naturally that's a much more important tournament resulting in cape trims etc.

Idea 4:

Fix the rewards for trims. The game is barely supporting 32 guilds right now, implement some of the aforementioned changes above and then maybe you can go back to it because more players will come to play.. For the time being, instead of a 1-32 gets a trim, do the following.

{1} - Gold
{2-10} - Silver
{11-20} - Bronze

That is called trimming the fat. No longer are henchways going to get Bronze trims and better yet, maybe within a month or two with the steps outlined in this you can revert it back to the old system where more guilds participating will call for it.

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I can see the crapstorm coming after this post so for all the haters:

This is not a "day late, dollar short". I repeat, THIS IS NOT A "DAY LATE, DOLLAR SHORT". People still care about GvG and with appopriate, LONG OVERDUE changes can come success even in the wake of GW2's release.

Missing HB · Aug 21, 2012, 04:47 PM // 16:47

I'm not disagreeing with the idea of making champion title easier to get, but you encounter several problems :
- even since the begin of Guild wars, there weren't that many guilds that played GvG( although it was kinda supposed to be what players should do once pve was finished).. i think there was just a problem in the game itself, or in players mind, that made GvG not so played...
- champion title is thus not going to have a big incidence on activity...it might have an impact on a short term( players coming for the title), but i doubt it will on the long

The other big problem is that having a trim will basically be to show others that you earned it and that you're a good player... But you know, from my recent experience, i'm 99.9% sure that everyone would either not care or would say " lol trim in 2k12 + gw2 out " ... Quite the same for champion title... it will be abused in some way by people who miss that title only, that's all..

I think what needs to be done first, before your idea, is to make a big PvP outpost where you can enter all arenas... Otherwise, everything will remain inactive, with people split everywhere.. The clear problem with PvP is activity, and although you seem to claim that there are still enough GvG'ers, my experience from last year with every format showed me the exact opposite...

Renowned Spartan · Aug 21, 2012, 05:09 PM // 17:09

HA is dead basically besides quests days. RA is hanging on for dear life and only because of it's purely for entertainment/leisurely play mindset. That has been the success of that format.

GvG, from my experience in the last couple months, has been fairly active. We are usually able to get to 3-4 matches a night and then there's a period of waiting. Of course, this isn't nearly as active as it once was but still tolerable in some capacity.

I like the idea of having a PvP outpost where players can enter all formats from. Consolidating into one area would probably also accustom newer players to this format of play.

My point regarding champ rating range was not to increase activity so much as it was to accomodate competetive players that are still playing - and the dilemma we have at hand. Sorry if I implied that with my last statement in my post - If ArenaNet refuses to fix the rating then do away with the title all together - simply not enough guilds have the rating (the ladder reset really doesn't matter tbh) to support getting more than 1-5 champ points a week if you're lucky and in the WAY upper echelon of GvG (Top 10+). Champion title now relies on luck of the draw - as in, Will I or won't I get a match against 1 out of the other 9 guilds besides mine with the same rating. They have taken the skill portion of it and made the luck aspect even worse.

Liken it to this: If the cost of a car goes up, so must the salaries of consumers - as is the case with any product in an economy.

IE: We the consumers (Guild Wars Players) can't afford the cost (Rating 1200+) because we're not given enough money to work with (other Guilds in the game to farm rating off of) - how then can we buy that car (Champion Title)?

See what I did there?

That's exactly what's going on right now.

IE: 40 years ago you wouldn't be able to own a 2012 Toyota Camry on your average weekly/monthly salary. This is where the drop off is happening with Guild Wars - In a sense, the rating scale hasn't changed even though the amount of people playing HAS. It is only feasible for 10 guilds, given the current state of the game and peramaters, to even accumulate the aforementioned number I threw out there. Rating is directly determined by the rank of the guild you're playing. But there aren't enough guilds playing to get your rating up to the required limit.

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Like I said before, Champion title has been watered down to luck of the draw and not purely skill. There is still skill involved in beating better or comparable opponents but luck currently has more to do with it in terms of getting paired with another group with the required rating. You see "Entering match in :10" coming up and pray it's a guild that's ranked 1-9 (assuming you're at the cutoff of 1200+ rating at Rank 10). And if not, welp, here's to hoping the next time you're playing.

doomfodder · Aug 21, 2012, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renowned Spartan

RA is hanging on for dear life and only because of it's purely for entertainment/leisurely play mindset. That has been the success of that format.

sorry to go off topic but....

By "success of the format" I presume you mean that RA gets played more than any other GW1 PvP format at this age of the game. I'm not so convinced that RA is still "successful" due to it's purely entertainment/leisurely play mindset. I think the "success" is actually predicated on a few things...

1) rarely have timer restarts (so players don't spend their time just waiting to play). Compare this to the timer restarts in low end PvP or the endless waiting for a match in the high end PvP
2) anyone CAN play. There is no team leader that can kick you (for whatever reason THEY choose). I don't need rank/title, I don't have to have impressed players in the past so that they will team with me, I can play a paragon if I want...
3) anyone can play any build (they may not be successful) but there's no "build nazi" telling them they can't play if they don't change. Albeit if you play a worthless build, your team mates will rage &/or bolt during/after the match
4) syncing is still possible with relatively little effort so you can still TRY to team up with a friend or 2-3.
5) you don't NEED anyone else in order to play (guildies/friends/alliance) other than 7 other randoms in the queue
6) matches are typcially short, so people can "jump in" for 15 min of gaming and likely play in up to 3 matches
7) The ZC rewards 3k balth for 3 wins
8) because of the 4v4 format, game tactics are very different from any other GW1 PvP format

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Renowned Spartan

Like I said before, Champion title has been watered down to luck of the draw and not purely skill. There is still skill involved in beating better or comparable opponents but luck currently has more to do with it in terms of getting paired with another group with the required rating. You see "Entering match in :10" coming up and pray it's a guild that's ranked 1-9 (assuming you're at the cutoff of 1200+ rating at Rank 10). And if not, welp, here's to hoping the next time you're playing.

I agree COMPLETELY. Champ title is impractical to obtain with the state of the game today.

Actually, I suspect that ANET actually PREFERS that ALL PvP titles remain that way. GW is structured to ENABLE PvE titles (even if only through grind) since NO ONE ELSE needs to be in the game in order to obtain PvE titles. However... GW is STILL structured to only allow progress toward PvP titles IF theres an ORGANIZED critical mass of player base. I really wish ANET would paradigm shift and enable those players that still enjoy the game & want to play the ability to achieve rewards that were available to others in the early days...

Presuming that ANET won't adjust the reward structure, then the issue falls to the player base to solve the problem. And how do we as players incent more people in a dwindling population to play GvG?"

Missing HB · Aug 22, 2012, 04:47 PM // 16:47

I think i do understand your point, but this is quite a dilemma though..
Codex is, for me, unplayable because i rarely saw anyone there, and almost all points i had there were by facing autobots who kept entering... If i can say anything, i would say that the title isn't obtainable, yet there are still many players(syncers or not) getting the title. So basically, if they just check statistics, they won't see any problem with the title..

Quite the same with HoH : last week end, i generally either stopped because of no more opponents, either couldn't get so many consecutives wins( 1v1 halls ftw) whereas that we did beat 3 times that team who was holding earlier...
I ended up not having much fame points, whereas players in halls had quite a lot . I can also add on this players online 24/7..If we all start on the same rank, is it really fair that players who are less good get so much points ? ( i'm high rank, so no need to flame on this)

Why do i mention that ? Because i do believe they update PvP according to what the majority of players think :
- that explains why PvP gets generally no care at all( lol 7 heroes in PvE, lol nostalgia quests only in PvE, lol can't even play zaishen elite with heroes)

Thus, the same with this GvG idea. Personnaly, i would agree totally with it since the title isn't obtainable and that's even worse than HA or Codex, since you can't 'cheat' to get it, but nothing will be done because noone cares( only 5 answers to this topic..) and GvG players won't even care of this i believe..

HigherMinion · Aug 24, 2012, 10:03 AM // 10:03

It's not GvG that needs fixing; it's HA. I've seen the same person win HA for the past month; that Rezz Anna person. Discuss ideas to fix HA.

Renowned Spartan · Aug 24, 2012, 01:54 PM // 13:54

A format has to be alive to fix. HA is dead. Nothing is going to bring that playerbase back. GvG is still alive and suppposedly MATs will continue after the release of GW2 tomorrow..but that remains to be seen.

In the mean time, I would hope that someone is taking note to implement these changes...but again, that is just wishful thinking and probably not worth it anymore.

Missing HB · Aug 24, 2012, 04:07 PM // 16:07

He isn't syncing at all, he's just playing a lot( sometimes willing to wait really long) only to be blue in halls( then it gets rather easy to have hall wins).. It's his right to play with whoever he wants or to decide to play 24/7..
The only problem with this, although i don't know how he is acting today, is about being proud of doing that and getting title points. Example coming to my mind is that guy who got champion 8 syncing and was exposing it bravely..
You cannot say HA needs a fix because he does win it much...

Clearly the problem with HA is HA itself.. 1v1 halls are clearly completly unfair, and 3 ways are today made in order to gank( you can't try out any form of tactic). Fame earned isn't homogenous between players( you can be playing 3 hours and getting skips, facing bad opponent, ending with not much points, or otherwise being rather lucky( having no disconnects, afks) and having all consecutive wins)..

GvG requires 2 players on both sides to have a match, whereas 16 players in HA cannot do anything but have a match in UW( and one disconnect means it's over). Clearly on this, GvG better deserves a fix than HA( except if same player requirements are applied to HA). What needs to be done is :
- either lower player requirements or implement back Hero battles, but please let us be able to do something easily in pvp... it makes no sense logging and watching AB empty, HA empty, Codex empty..
- either create a big town for PvP, to meet all pvp players together and have an idea of activity..

Renowned Spartan · Aug 24, 2012, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I'm wondering if with the release of GW2 in the next day or so, if people are still going to play GvG. That being said, if it still remains active I think we've accumulated a valid enough argument to get this changed.

HigherMinion · Aug 24, 2012, 11:14 PM // 23:14

I'm pretty sure PvP is going to be the only active activity in GW after tomorrow. THe PvP in GW2 blows in comparison, as far as I'm aware.

Missing HB · Aug 25, 2012, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Come on dude...Activity on GW1 is still a problem.. Not a question of Gw2 or not, but there are also plenty of other games..
When you don't have anything else or are still at school, you might not care of waiting long, but do you think people who get back of work on evening are willing to wait hours in order to get an opponent ? If it can happen on a very short run, they usually stop after a while because it's a waste of time and it's not fun( not being able to play isn't fun yes)..

So, assuming GW2 PvP is a fail, there's still GW2 PvE aside which looks good( and GW1 PvE worked better than GW1 PvP overall..)

For today, although it's not really the hour, i haven't encountered any form of activity anywhere, and can't find any match on observer...

m i L e s · Aug 25, 2012, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renowned Spartan

I like the idea of having a PvP outpost where players can enter all formats from. Consolidating into one area would probably also accustom newer players to this format of play.

^^
This. Do This.
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and on the HA note... HA is dead because the players make it that way....
time to get flamed for this, but if you want people to play in HA more dont make the group req r7+++++ its impossible for new players to play/try it out, or players that have r3+ and know what they are doing to even get in a group.

HigherMinion · Aug 25, 2012, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Come on dude...Activity on GW1 is still a problem.. Not a question of Gw2 or not, but there are also plenty of other games..
When you don't have anything else or are still at school, you might not care of waiting long, but do you think people who get back of work on evening are willing to wait hours in order to get an opponent ? If it can happen on a very short run, they usually stop after a while because it's a waste of time and it's not fun( not being able to play isn't fun yes)..

So, assuming GW2 PvP is a fail, there's still GW2 PvE aside which looks good( and GW1 PvE worked better than GW1 PvP overall..)

For today, although it's not really the hour, i haven't encountered any form of activity anywhere, and can't find any match on observer...

No, GW PvE is fine; it's instanced and the only thing that's wrong with it is lack of skill balance we were expecting and haven't got. No problem how "inactive" it gets in the next few months. At any rate, GW's PvP offers something more distinct than GW2; structured format and team cooperation. GW2 is in direct competition with it's predecessor so it's fine to bring it up specifically.

Missing HB · Aug 26, 2012, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by m i L e s

^^
This. Do This.
-------------------
and on the HA note... HA is dead because the players make it that way....
time to get flamed for this, but if you want people to play in HA more dont make the group req r7+++++ its impossible for new players to play/try it out, or players that have r3+ and know what they are doing to even get in a group.

HA is dead because of HA itself..

There's noone in, why would i form a party ? Basically, reaching halls today relies on luck, playing on the exact time, and also relies on having some syncers playing.. We can just thanks that there are guys trying to cheat, or 1 team willing to wait really long , else there wouldn't be a hall match ever..

That's the big problem between HA and GvG :
- in GvG, it's some 1v1 annihilation, then you get back to the outpost whether you win or lose
- in GvG, you can play with 2 humans + 4 henchs( although it doesn't make much sense, but you can try to play at least )

- in HA, it's a consecutive wins system and the aim is hall of heroes clearly
- in HA, you need at least 6 players in your party

That's also one reason AB, aside of reward question, is dead.. because you need 24 players..

That's here where you wonder the logic upon deleting formats requiring 1-4 players against balancing formats requiring much more..

Renowned Spartan · Aug 27, 2012, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Welp, poop trimmed in the last MAT. Kinda sad..haha..core members didn't sign on and instead decided to lag it up/get booted off of GW2..tough luck to them

Wonder if anyone will still GvG anymore in mATs.

Renowned Spartan · Aug 27, 2012, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Sadly enough, nothing has been changed in the way of rating and champ points. Currently only the top 15'ish guilds have enough still. Did some digging to find out that one of the GvG'ers over on QQ forums actually works with ANet in skill balancing but currently there are some issues with him and possibly playing on a team in the mAT that had a botter - so not going to pick his brain about other avenues.

I guess the first place I'd be best to start would be to observe and see who's actually going to continue GvG'ing - admittedly it looks like my guild members might already be enthralled in GW2 but alas my computer cannot run it so I have yet to touch it.

Spartan

tealspikes · Aug 28, 2012, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Truly organized PvP no longer exists in Guild Wars except for one day of the month. There are very few teams now that run without a large portion of guests. The only thing that can possibly repopulate it is by streamlining PuGing. This is done with a GvG outpost or something similar.

Renowned Spartan · Aug 28, 2012, 08:41 PM // 20:41

I would disagree with that statement. I did an obs of the latest top GvG battles and it seemed that there were indeed some legitimate GvG's going on in the past few hours.

While GW1 is dying, there is still room to salvage and improve GvG. I do like the idea of creating a central access PvP point where all formats can be entered but the likelihood of something like that being implemented is low due to ANet's complete focus on GW2.

The simple coding fixes I suggested above would be easily implemented and fix the format we've been discussing for the time being. Maybe long enough to suit those who still care about GvG in this game.

Spartan