Curse

Morganas · Feb 21, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

A better way to handle this would be a damage queue system where you cannot take more than x damage over a given second. Any damage above that total is inflicted in the following second.

However, as much as I hate pure spike builds, it's far too late to implement this sort of system. The outcry and ragequits would be huge.

That's why I suggested negative HP over a half a second. Both because it would probably be easier to do from an implementation standpoint, but also because it wouldn't kill the spike builds people love so much, it would just make them harder.

You'd have to think about ways to shutdown fast heals for that half second, either through well timed diverts for the first few spikes (not hard to do if you know the heal's coming), or through kd's or blackouts or whatever. Balanced builds already do this, but the sort of braindead spike you see in HA rarely takes mesmers or a variety of utility skills. Honestly, I don't think spiking is a problem in GvG. Even if your infuser's lagging too much to catch the full spike, you can still come out on top if the guy calling the shots is smart.

Phades · Feb 21, 2007, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

A better way to handle this would be a damage queue system where you cannot take more than x damage over a given second. Any damage above that total is inflicted in the following second.

However, as much as I hate pure spike builds, it's far too late to implement this sort of system. The outcry and ragequits would be huge.

I guess angelic protection was "supposed" to address that, but its too long of a recharge to be useful as something reactionary and too short of a duration to be used in a "pre prot" situation.

I guess they get points for the attempt though.

Loch · Feb 21, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There we go, tack on a couple obvious holes like a 10 mana targeted heal (seriously, WTF is with that never being made)

Heal Other would have to compete against this spell (which I'll call Heal Someone). In a world with both Heal Other and Heal Someone, I'm guessing that only one would ever be used - either Heal Someone heals too little to be considered at all, or Heal Someone is efficient enough to ignore Heal Other altogether.

Or they could just cut the bullshit already and change "Heal Other" to "Heal Someone." What's up with the "target other ally" thing anyway? Wasn't that concept used because ANet was afraid that any profession with Monk secondary would have too many efficient self-heals? Is this even a problem?

Ensign · Feb 21, 2007, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Or they could just cut the bullshit already and change "Heal Other" to "Heal Someone." What's up with the "target other ally" thing anyway?

I think there was this fear early on that if you couldn't Monk Stomp, nothing would ever die. So they decided that Monks shouldn't be able to heal themselves to encourage Monk Stomping. Monks decided to run Prot instead.

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Feb 21, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Fair points on the nuking concept. I agree that it'd be better if you could have decent DPS but that having a burst of DPS would at least use your energy, which doesn't really happen with pretty much all skills being 5E.

And i agree that Channeling emanagement is actually decent, but i think that Rts WOULD have real energy problem if they had many more high energy skills. Rts still don't have an equivalent to atunements for non-elite emanagement. Essence Strike is great, i'll never argue against it (not sure it's overpowered though, it's pretty similar to things like Glowing Gaze with a different conditional. Since the conditional is arguably easier to meet, maybe recharge could be raised to like 9-10s, but i'm not convinced), but it's also about the only viable non-elite emanagement you have, all the rest is just too situational or too narrow in use (like Spirit Siphon, Renewing Memories...). But yes, things like Wielder's Strike and Gaze would possibly be ok at 10E, or maybe 2s cast (i wouldn't put both though, cause then you just use Channeled Strike and that's it, conditional is much easier to control. Maybe something like a 2s cast Gaze and a 10E Wielder's Strike to have the option between either a long cast time or a higher energy cost would be great). If it's still not enough, i guess you could add a small damage nerf to what Spirit Burn is at right now so that you have like Gaze from Beyond at say 5/2/10 with 10..22..26 x 4 drained (104 damage max) and Wielder's Strike at 10/1/12 doing around the same it does now. Would give you a choice in your nukes with them having different advantages, and if you want high damage + high cast time, you can use Channeled. I agree that it would put the 3 of them more on par, atm i kinda stopped using Channeled cause there's not much point using the 2s cast when you got Wielder's and Spirit Burn at 1s. Along with Spirit Burn nerfed to around 90 damage max, Bloodsong to 10E and Lamentation to something like 10E, 1-2s cast and 20-30s recharge you'd likely have a much more balanced Channeling without destroying it.

I think that i'm just worried with Channeling as a whole cause i DO like the line, i used it in GvG with very good result before NF even came out, and while i agree that it's needs some small nerfs i'm worried about how ANet does those nerfs. Usually, when a skill requires a nerf, it's totally destroyed more often than not, and now that the hoops as you call them are finally good skills too, i wouldn't want to see Channeling just made not viable.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Rts still don't have an equivalent to atunements for non-elite emanagement.

Just for spirits, which doesn't help with your DDs. Remember though that there is a lack of emanagement in all corners of this game, and rits aren't in a unique situation there - Eles have attunements but all their skills cost 10 or 15, and otherwise everyone else is stuck using the Glyph.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Essence Strike is great, i'll never argue against it (not sure it's overpowered though, it's pretty similar to things like Glowing Gaze with a different conditional.

It does more damage and has a much easier conditional to meet than Glowing Gaze in most builds. I'm not calling for a nerf to Essence Strike, but it is a skill that I've randomly put on a lot of bars whenever there happened to be a spirit in the build just for the energy, and that makes me raise my eyebrows. That could simply be because it's the only non-elite emanagement option worth anything though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Maybe something like a 2s cast Gaze and a 10E Wielder's Strike

Those are the changes I would make as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Along with Spirit Burn nerfed to around 90 damage max, Bloodsong to 10E and Lamentation to something like 10E, 1-2s cast and 20-30s recharge you'd likely have a much more balanced Channeling without destroying it.

Right, that's the idea. Nothing against those skills being strong in their respective niches, just a problem with them becoming so strong that they're degenerate when conditions are met. Bloodsong is the only one that gives me headaches - I still feel that moving it to Channeling was a mistake, and a mistake that's only overlooked because the skill is overpowered as is. Seriously, if you've specced Channeling the only reason not to run Bloodsong is that someone else on your team is running Bloodsong. If it were balanced, it'd become obvious that it's not enough to support those Channeling DDs on its own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

i agree that it's needs some small nerfs i'm worried about how ANet does those nerfs.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'd be concerned about that too. We've seen the same skill updates. But I'm still going to argue for the buffs and nerfs that make the most sense, because I think that a viewpoint being right is the best reason to support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAdnRisKy

healing needs REAL utility. Like a hex removal + heal. One of the staple componants of prot is that all your condition removal is in it.

I agree that a mistake was made when divvying up Monk skill mechanics, giving Healing *only* "Red Bars Go Up", and Protection all of the interesting effects, including effect plus "Red Bars Go Up". With Divine Favor in the mix, of course I'm going to prefer to spam Mend Condition for 100 point heals than Orison.

If it were to be done again and I had a say, I'd strongly push for "Healing = skills you use to undo effects, or want to cast *after* they land", and "Protection = skills you want to use to prevent effects, or want to cast *before* they land". Hence, condition and hex removal would go into Healing, while Protection effects would resemble Holy Veil or Featherfoot Grace.

Peace,
-CxE

TLLOTS · Feb 21, 2007, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I agree that a mistake was made when divvying up Monk skill mechanics, giving Healing *only* "Red Bars Go Up", and Protection all of the interesting effects, including effect plus "Red Bars Go Up". With Divine Favor in the mix, of course I'm going to prefer to spam Mend Condition for 100 point heals than Orison.

If it were to be done again and I had a say, I'd strongly push for "Healing = skills you use to undo effects, or want to cast *after* they land", and "Protection = skills you want to use to prevent effects, or want to cast *before* they land". Hence, condition and hex removal would go into Healing, while Protection effects would resemble Holy Veil or Featherfoot Grace.

Peace,
-CxE

I was going to ask your thoughts on Healing Prayers vs. Protection Prayers, though you sort of answered it. However given the mechanics already in place for Protection Prayers and Healing Prayers, do you think it's possible to fix the mess they've made such that Healing Prayers can become attractive to invest significantly in without either being given grossly overpowered heals, or stepping on Protection Prayers toes and essentially becoming Protection Prayers 2?

One additional question too. What is your overall opinion of Smiting Prayers and what would you have done given the opportunity to redesign it from the start? In my opinion skills such as Reversal of Damage seem the right way to go, while direct damage skills such as Signet of Mystic Wrath and Smite just seem wrong on a class so capable of defending itself.

Ensign · Feb 22, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

do you think it's possible to fix the mess they've made such that Healing Prayers can become attractive to invest significantly in without either being given grossly overpowered heals, or stepping on Protection Prayers toes and essentially becoming Protection Prayers 2?

Healing is a vital enough mechanic (the bars do need to go back up) that it can be made attractive even without other mechanics. See: Healer's Boon for a specialized healing bar that's pretty viable. With some variety of healing skills added (see suggestions) you could even make it a pretty interesting character, similar to how Fire Elementalists could be made interesting with the right combination of DDs, AoEs, and DoTAoEs. The real cost of Healing Prayers being narrow is a gameplay effect. When Healing can't be worked around or just splashed into builds, you have to run Healers, and Healers are, well, boring as hell. Flexible defensive characters create much more interesting gameplay, just as flexible offensive characters lead to more interesting gameplay than Flare spammers would. With the right heals, Healers could be made into somewhat interesting characters, just not as interesting as a healer with a deeper mechanic set would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

What is your overall opinion of Smiting Prayers and what would you have done given the opportunity to redesign it from the start?

That's a hard question, and not one that I've ever seen answered in a way that I like. Here's the problem - you don't want to design a class with nothing but defensive or support roles. Sometimes players want to lead, or go off solo, or generally not be dependent upon someone else to do the heavy lifting, and a pure healing or support character can't do that.

The trouble being that it's really hard to give a healing profession an offensive role that isn't just a watered down version of what other classes can do. Do you want to give them DDs? Those are neccessarily worse than Magi DDs. Physical damage? Neccessarily worse than melee classes. Basically, anything you give to a class that has a ton of defensive potential can't be on par with what a character without that defensive potential offers, meaning it basically has to be unique.

I haven't yet seen anyone offer that unique mechanical set that preserves flavor and doesn't step on other toes. Usually designers just go with some variation of 'holy smite' which ends up just being a really weak Magi line, which fills the need but really isn't interesting. Other common option is 'heroism', avatar equivilents, which go with the weak melee option...again, not terribly interesting.

I liked the mechanics offered by Balthazar's Aura, Reversal of Damage, Retribution, Shield of Judgement, and particularly Zealot's Fire. That sort of angle seems promising but I have no idea how deep it is. I guess on short notice, keep those and expand the offensive buff (Judge's Insight, Strength of Honor) angle and call it a line. It's a really hard problem and I don't know a good answer to it, let me know if you come up with one.

Peace,
-CxE

Riotgear · Feb 22, 2007, 03:55 AM // 03:55

The ideal concept for smiting would probably have been punishing people for attacking your teammates. There are several skills that do this, but they all have roughly the same effect: Straight damage. Is Smite Hex really worth it over Holy Veil? Is Judge's Intervention really worth it over, oh, Spirit Bond? Can Zealot's Fire ever be good for deterring people from attacking a teammate without being much more powerful when you spam draw or RoF on a warrior?

It would be different if the effects were badass. If Smite Hex knocked all adjacent foes down, for example, then maybe it would be a good skill. It would be different if the mechanics were changed, like if Retribution was a cast enchantment rather than a maintained.

If I were to redesign the line, I'd do exactly that: Make good skills that aid allies and punish enemies at the same time, rather than its current mish-mash of DDs, hexes, buffs, and several pieces of junk that I can't even fathom running on a monk primary. The whole Smiting line barely even fits with the concept of a monk, which is why it sucks.

Morganas · Feb 22, 2007, 04:44 AM // 04:44

The smite line already has spells that punish attackers. The only one that's any good is reversal of damage. Balthazar'd pendulum has the potential to be good, but it's too damn specialized to be worth bringing. It needs to have an additional effect.

Really, any spell that punishes the attackers that isn't a cheap, powerful, but quick to expire effect is going to be trash. If it's a long lasting punish the attacker buff, like retribution, it's never going to see play because it can be too easily countered with target switching.

Riotgear · Feb 22, 2007, 05:01 AM // 05:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

The smite line already has spells that punish attackers. The only one that's any good is reversal of damage.

I said "good spells."

Quote:

Really, any spell that punishes the attackers that isn't a cheap, powerful, but quick to expire effect is going to be trash. If it's a long lasting punish the attacker buff, like retribution, it's never going to see play because it can be too easily countered with target switching.

Low recharges can solve that.

Phades · Feb 22, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

I like the mechanic on skills such as Bane Signet as well. You're doing damage as well as preventing damage (by knocking down the attacker). The skill itself is still just too weak to be worth taking.

~Z

Problem with a skill like that is, if it gets buffed, it becomes a non-eliete version of water trident without worrying about projectiles and gets used like blinding flash does to help stop a physical attack spike.

It would be similar to making a non-eliete version of shield of judgement as well. Of course i think a 1 trigger mid to low recharge non-eliete enchantment might be a better way to go in that instance.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 22, 2007, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Healing is a vital enough mechanic (the bars do need to go back up) that it can be made attractive even without other mechanics. See: Healer's Boon for a specialized healing bar that's pretty viable.

I've never seen a pure healing Healer's Boon bar. They always had at least Dismiss and Veil on it, and sometimes a 6 specced Shield of Absorption or Protective Spirit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Is Smite Hex really worth it over Holy Veil? Is Judge's Intervention really worth it over, oh, Spirit Bond? Can Zealot's Fire ever be good for deterring people from attacking a teammate without being much more powerful when you spam draw or RoF on a warrior?

If for any reason you've already specced in Smiting, Smite Hex is worth it over Holy Veil.
Judges Intervention is a bad joke. Divine Intervention wasn't that good to begin with, and they basically made it worse.
Spamming Draw Conditions on a warrior is only good because you have certain 'gain X energy for every Y for every spell you cast'-mechanics allowing you to keep the spamming up, such as Ether Renewal (R.I.P.), Air of Enchantment and Master of Magic. Without those skills, spamming Draw and RoF sucks, and currently therefore smiting sucks without those skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

The whole Smiting line barely even fits with the concept of a monk, which is why it sucks.

What is the concept of a monk then? IMO it's preventing and healing dmg. Smiting could work as a prevention line, but still very different from Protection Prayers. I agree that the DD's like Banish and Smite don't really fit there, but Smiting as a line with skills like Reversal of Dmg, Shield of Judgment, Zealot's Fire, Balthazar's Aura, Symbol of Wrath (which would rock at a 3/4 cast time), a buffed version of Balthazar's Pendulum and a lot of other skills like that could work as a dmg prevention line.

Patccmoi · Feb 22, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

That's how i see it too. I'd prefer a lot if Smiting was a little more 'Mesmerish', i.e. punishing attackers (spell and melee alike depending on the skills), but with more interesting effects that end up preventing damage too. I also like the attacker buffs (JI, SoH). The Scourge spells are nice though to be honest i would've seen them as Curses, they seem more Necroish, but it gives something nice to the line.

I think a lot of the current skills could just be made more interesting easily. Take Judge's Intervention. Honestly, i really like the concept of the skill, the problem is that it's absolutely retarded that it triggers when target would die, cause you have very little chance of it actually do anything except some damage before seeing your ally die. I'd see it much more interesting as something like this:

[skill]Judge's Intervention[/skill]:

10/.25/20
For 10s, if damage would lower target ally's health below 33%, this damage is negated and one nearby foe (or the guy that did the damage, not sure) takes 30..150..190 damage.

See, if you put it to below 33%, then it actually gives the monks a chance to still save the target realistically. You can use it during a spike easily, protecting some of the damage (and doing a small heal through DF) and giving the heal/prot monks more time to save the target while doing some serious damage to an opponent (Frenzy wars especially would get destroyed). I'd seriously consider bringing a skill like that on a smite monk bar.

I think the dd damage should be done taking an example on Smite and Spear of Light actually. Not that i think Smite is a nice skill, but in the sense that it should do minor damage (maybe even lower than what it does now) but with an extra effect if your target is doing something offensive (attacking, casting a spell that target one of your allies, etc.). But i'd rather see those effects being 'effects' more than +damage.

Here's some examples of ways i'd tweak the Smite line to be more interesting from my point of view :

[skill]Spear of Light[/skill] could be:

Spell. Spear of Light flies toward target foe and deals 26...50 holy damage if it hits. If it hits an attacking foe, that foe is interrupted and blind for 1..5 seconds.

Note that it's not nearly as spammable as BFlash or BSurge and wouldn't have the same utility, but it could prevent damage and punish a target. Would be a mix of Lightning Javelin and BFlash, but much less spammable than either.

Or another example of what it could do:

Spell. Spear of Light flies toward target foe and deals 26...50 holy damage if it hits. If it hits an attacking foe, all allies adjacent to that foe are healed for 40..88 health.

See? Not a direct healing skill, but it would help healing targets of melee foes efficiently, being more 'monkish'.

[skill]Bane Signet[/skill] would be nice if it did 3s kd imo. It's not like you could do the same as a Gale with it since you must hit attacking foes, and it would help protect more (gives people more time to move, etc.). Otherwise you could do as Zuranthium suggested with .75s cast and 15s recharge.

[skill]Symbol of Wrath[/skill] could be great if it was 1s cast and targetted any ally (DF would trigger too, healing the target lightly). Then it would protect the target from melee attackers by pressuring them to move away. Recharge would need to drop to 20s too. I think that 5s duration is fine if you can target it.

[skill]Balthazar's Pendulum[/skill] could be made so that it knocks the guy for 4s and put it 5/.25/5, seriously punishing any1 that wants to knock you and being able to use it on reflex (like you see a hammer warrior switching target and running to a softie, you throw the Prot on and watch him do an Earthshaker and get knocked for 4s). Would really help with runners and to screw up Gale spammers. And being such a specialized elite, i don't see anything wrong with it being very good against kds.

[skill]Shield of Judgement[/skill] should last for a short duration but have a much better recharge. It's already 15E to limit its use. Think of something like 15/1/10, and enchants target for 1..5..6s. Then you could use it in a similar way to Shield of Regen, but instead of regenerating and adding armor it knocks attackers. And i don't wanna hear anything about how this would hurt farming =p

[skill]Word of Censure[/skill] could be reworked to something like this:

10/.25/5
Target foe takes 15...63 holy damage. If target foe is casting a spell that targets a foe, the spell fails.

This way it'd have a very interesting effect, being an unconditional decent damage nuke (same damage as current SP) but it would also help protecting your team by interrupting enemies. And it's not an interrupt, it makes the spell fails, which means that nothing can really prevent it from working out of spell breaker. Would be great against caster spike teams. But it's elite, and still much less versatile than Mesmer interrupts by only working on spells targetting foes. And it would fit perfectly with the name 'Word of Censure' to me (much more than the current pointless effect of the skill which is pretty much 'burn all your energy to do some minor damage to a target'. Would only require 80E before this spell kills a target on its own, and you can't even do that cause they added a recharge if target is below 33%...).

I think that a mix of light damage + effect protecting/healing your allies is what would be the best for Smite. And the more they target allies, the better it is imo since it allows for DF to have some effect and it has synergy with ZF (which i agree is a great skill and a good concept).

I think that what i say is actually the concept ANet had too, i just think that it's not well implemented at all and that they focused too much on damage, and if they focus too much on damage then they have to make everything sub par. I don't think that Smite is such a wreck honestly, i think that with some small changes like what i proposed above to most of the skills it could easily be turned in a very interesting line without seriously changing/adding any skill.

I'd love for a smite monk to be a viable '3rd monk' char, that would help provide the extra defense/healing your team needs while pressuring/punishing the other team in its own way. Wouldn't necesserily be better than another option (like say a warder with eruption, an air ele with BSurge, a Mesmer shutting down casters and doing Blackout on melee, etc.) but it'd be another interesting and viable option instead of a gimmick you bring once in a while until it's nerfed.

Riotgear · Feb 22, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

There really aren't even any straight DD's in the line...only WORD OF CENSURE. Things like Smite, Banish, Holy Strike, and Ray of Judgment are just fine, IMO, because they are specifically punishing one specific thing and aren't pure DD's.

I dunno, saying that Banish, SoL, Smite and Holy Strike aren't DDs is kind of like saying BotA isn't a DD because it can heal you. The usage is exactly the same: Push the button, hurt someone with it.

TLLOTS · Feb 22, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That's a hard question, and not one that I've ever seen answered in a way that I like. Here's the problem - you don't want to design a class with nothing but defensive or support roles. Sometimes players want to lead, or go off solo, or generally not be dependent upon someone else to do the heavy lifting, and a pure healing or support character can't do that.

The trouble being that it's really hard to give a healing profession an offensive role that isn't just a watered down version of what other classes can do. Do you want to give them DDs? Those are neccessarily worse than Magi DDs. Physical damage? Neccessarily worse than melee classes. Basically, anything you give to a class that has a ton of defensive potential can't be on par with what a character without that defensive potential offers, meaning it basically has to be unique.

I haven't yet seen anyone offer that unique mechanical set that preserves flavor and doesn't step on other toes. Usually designers just go with some variation of 'holy smite' which ends up just being a really weak Magi line, which fills the need but really isn't interesting. Other common option is 'heroism', avatar equivilents, which go with the weak melee option...again, not terribly interesting.

I liked the mechanics offered by Balthazar's Aura, Reversal of Damage, Retribution, Shield of Judgement, and particularly Zealot's Fire. That sort of angle seems promising but I have no idea how deep it is. I guess on short notice, keep those and expand the offensive buff (Judge's Insight, Strength of Honor) angle and call it a line. It's a really hard problem and I don't know a good answer to it, let me know if you come up with one.

Peace,
-CxE

I see what you're saying, and thanks for the reply as well. Your reasoning for needing direct damage skills like Smite in Smiting Prayers makes sense for most games where there's a rigid class structure, though I wonder if it's really necessary in a game like Guild Wars where you're able to draw on a secondary class to make up for your primary classes deficiencies. Granted, you're not going to be able to use that secondary as effective as if it were your primary so you're always going to be a sub-par damage dealer... but that's really no different from if you were to use Smiting Prayers. All spells like Smite seem to do is mislead people into believing that their class is capable of more than it really is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

[skill]Balthazar's Pendulum[/skill] could be made so that it knocks the guy for 4s and put it 5/.25/5, seriously punishing any1 that wants to knock you and being able to use it on reflex (like you see a hammer warrior switching target and running to a softie, you throw the Prot on and watch him do an Earthshaker and get knocked for 4s). Would really help with runners and to screw up Gale spammers. And being such a specialized elite, i don't see anything wrong with it being very good against kds.

I like some of your other suggestions, but I think keeping this skill so narrowly focused is a bad idea. I'd much rather see it get an additional effect that you can be sure will trigger frequently, perhaps something like Reversal of Damage, so that you can always be sure that the skill will be pulling its weight.

BryanM · Feb 25, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Is Smite Hex really worth it over Holy Veil?

Smite hex used to be pretty decent when Holy Veil didn't remove hAxes, only 1 second hAx remover in the game back then.

Scourge healing poisons the Heal Party well when running degen.

Kind of wish Strength of Honor wasn't a maintained enchantment, at 5 energy, ~20 second duration, and 1 second cast it would be sort of interesting - maintained enchantments were an idea that had some promise, but I don't feel like they really work that well in the game in practice.

The recharge times on static AoE's like the elementalist Fire Storm-likes, and the Symbol of Wraths, shows they don't want the balling type of force of the type we saw with the Nearby Dervish armor ignoring spells. I totally agree the massive cast times and recharges are drastically exaggerated, however. Why do 110 damage now when you MIGHT do 180 damage 5 seconds from now = lollercopter.

vapor311 · Mar 16, 2007, 03:53 AM // 03:53

Not to derail the topic... and excuse me if it was covered in the previous 1000 replies but I believe that one of the best ways to balance the nuking power in GW is to modify the restrictive targetting and open up the true ability to use AoE spells to target an area, and not a specific person.

Consider as it is now, it's difficult to cost AoE spells due to the fact that if you're hitting just 1 target with your AoE spells they're woefully inefficient. Rachet up the damage and they become just another spike skill. If however you add the ability to drop an AoE on a spot you increase the utility and the damage potential of the spells without increasing their spike potential. Fighting a team that's about to break, drop a meteor shower behind them. Have a warrior training your backline? Dump a fire storm in back and have your monks kite through it. It would certainly add more skill to game. What do you think?

Ensign · Mar 16, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

I think you'd cry to discover just how small AoEs are in this game when you ground targeted them and no one cared.

Peace,
-CxE

Zonzai · Mar 16, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

It's BS because it's an attempt to sweep the idea that elementalists can really suffer from enhanment removal under the proverbial carpet. - EDIT - I do aplogize for not making that more clear. I have a bad habit of doing that.

But that is why I posted the link to wiki (I apologize for not knowing that we are being elitist against the wiki around here these days and admit that I did not take the time to read that because I really don't care what the quid pro quo of the 1337 is).

The points is that there seems to me to be many ways to remove an enchantment. This does not mean that you will face all of them as some of you have been clever enough to catch on to. But it does vqalidate the wild theory that you will encounter other forms of enchantment removal, thereby unsweeping the idea that the only enchanment removal you will ever face as an elementalist using long recharging enchanments will be insiginificant.

Try an elemental attunement elemenatlist in GvG and see how often you get it stripped. It may not be every time it's up but it will be often enough to significiantly hinder your damage output (unless you cover it well). And that was the orginal point after all wasn't it?

You should know very well that not every guild, team or player is going to adhere to the standards you have set forth.

I freely admit it may be the way that was described in the top miniscule percentile - I wouldn't really know - but the other 99% of us encounter enchanment stripping often enough to know better than to use long recharging enchanments.

And that is the reason, at least I thought, that others have stated that using long recharging enchantments in PvP was generally a bad idea. Maybe I'm totally wrong and it's really a good idea.

Maybe long recharges don't matter. Maybe you will never have any enchanments stripped. These things could be true, but I can guarantee you by way of intimate experience, that the instant you start hitting for hundreds of points of damage in rapid succession that will all change.