Curse

Ensign · Feb 17, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

You're ignoring fastcast/recharge. While normally that's irrelevant because you don't have the energy to cast things faster anyway, in this particular case you would (well, until the enemy strips your attunements, anyway) so it should be considered.

A couple reasons for that.

First, that this combination of Air skills is sufficiently compact in terms of cast time to recharge that you really don't benefit from fast casts or recharges all that much. A fast cast on Lightning Orb is worth something, the other two skills recharge fast enough for that to fit in seemlessly. But a fast cast on the other two skills doesn't have that same property, in either case a fast cast means you'll be spending the extra time you gained waiting for Lightning Orb to recharge. Fast casts on Hammer or Strike only matter if you also got a fast recharge on your last Lightning Orb, which of course could happen if you're packing the right equipment. That can be avoided somewhat by packing another DD, like Enervating Charge, with which to fill in time gaps created by fast casts to gain some minimal benefit...but the damage from Lighning Strike equivilents is sufficiently low that you don't gain too much from it in terms of DPS.

It's a pain to calculate explicitly, but a fast cast mod coupled with fast recharge mod and that extra DD should slip your theoretical casting DPS to just north of 50, and your DPS overall to around 45.

The other reason to not consider fast casts on this sort of character is because fast cast mods are not terribly common in practice. Two main reasons for this - one, that Elementalists are frequently the most vulnerable target on a team (offensive Elementalists need to sit in the midline to be effective, and unlike other casters, really want to run that major or superior attribute rune), and have more of a need to keep their shield out and put a priority on defensive mods otherwise. Eles also have a better ability to play with their shield out than other casters, thanks to Energy Storage. As a result the only place you'd get a fast cast mod without giving up something much more valuable is as a 10% martial weapon inscription. Similarly, teams in PvP do want to coordinate spikes, even when you're running DPS characters like this one, and fast cast mods are a huge liability in those cases. Fast cast on your Orb or Hammer = failed spike, usually.

So in practice, there just isn't room for a casting speed mod for Eles, at best you'll get a 20% one from a staff that you will pull out specifically for that purpose. But the benefit of that is sufficiently marginal that I'm not sure why one would want to spend a weapon slot on it. Hence, I didn't include those mods in calculations, because those mods are not run, and even if they were the effect is not that significant.

As a sort of counterbalancing factor, autocrits from hitting people in the back with a Dragon Slasher are not taken into account in theory either. =)

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Feb 17, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's written in the skill descriptions - 'this skill must be used as part of some gimmicky combo or it doesn't do anything'. That's reversed somewhat, but 'stronger but gimmicky' has been the defining characteristic of a Ritualist for some time. But if you meet the conditions of the gimmicks, Ritualists are pretty dangerous - they can actually nuke reasonably, too, with lots of 100+ damage, 1s cast spells.

Just curious what your definition of gimmicky is in this case. I'm not saying you're wrong but it must be my definition of gimmicky that doesn't match yours. Cause to me gimmicky usually means that you're gambling on a gimmick that is more or less fragile and that can easily fall appart if you face certain teams/situations that you have no hope to handle.

What is gimmicky exactly? The fact that there is some skill synergy and some requirement? I mean, if it forced exactly a certain skill combo, i'd agree, but i don't think it does. You might need a weapon spell, but it can come from anyone in your team or yourself and can be lots of options (a much greater amount of which are viable now), same for ashpots or having a spirit in earshot. I don't see how having a spirit turns a build into a gimmick, it doesn't mean your full team build revolves around them and unless your build is 100% useless if spirits are taken out (like say a spirit spammer) it's not worse than an ele using an Atunement that could be stripped.

I just don't see what's different between those skills and spells requiring an enchant (Healing Light), a hexed target (BLS/BSS), or a target that isn't nearby to a foe (YAA). It's just requirements for your skills to work decently (or at all in some cases) but i don't feel at all that the requirements 'force' a build or a team build on Rts anymore or that it leaves you with a very high vulnerability and a possibly useless build. Even Rts totally independant on spirits can work well now, though usually i'd rather have spirit (even Destruction, which many usually leave alone in your backline and that has very good energy/recharge stats. Bloodsong does very good too, especially if you have say WoQ on yourself which buffs your nuking power and spirit recharge).

Take this build for an example:

14-15 Channeling
14 Communing

Weapon of Quickening
Warmonger's Weapon
Spirit Burn
Essence Strike
Wielder's Strike
Pain / Destruction
Bloodsong
Rez Signet

Buff yourself and 1-2 ally casters with WoQ, buff a melee permanently with Warmonger, nuke with Burn-Wielder's-Essence spam, use Bloodsong and Pain where they're not too easy accessible for a spirit base (both have pretty fast cast time and recharge considering WoQ so the requirement is truly not that hard to meet on them). On the run you can still nuke with Wielder's Strike hard and Spirit Burn-Essence are about as good as Lightning Strikes and recharge quite fast, and you can use Warmonger's and WoQ on allies without any spirit requirement. It doesn't force anything at all on your team build (well you'd usually want at least 1 attacker and 1-2 other casters but well, that's not exactly forcing something) and can actually function in more or less any kind of setup as good single target pressure + versatile party buff (and damn good buffs imo).

What's gimmicky? The fact that it uses spirits at all in which case spirit = gimmicky? The fact that you require a weapon spell on yourself for Wielder's Strike? Sure, you could face say a Mesmer with Unnatural Signet and he can take out your spirits fast, but your build is still functional as a whole. As i said above, an Ele using an Atunement could face a Necro with Gaze of Contempt as well and never manage to keep an Atunement up, in which case he can't run at max efficiency but isn't 100% useless.

All i see is a different play style where you want to make sure you use your skills to the fullest, but i don't see at all how it's a 'gimmicky combo', unless your definition of gimmicky isn't the same as mine and includes things like a YAA warrior, a Healing Light Monk, etc. that have some requirements to be fully functional (which i must say is something that actually appeals to me as it usually makes for more interesting play style, tactics and team builds. As long as it's not actually too gimmicky, from my definition, i.e. too fragile and unable to overcome certain team builds through tactics).

Ensign · Feb 18, 2007, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Just curious what your definition of gimmicky is in this case.

Characters and/or team builds that lack the tools to execute more than a single tactic. Gimmicks have a single path to victory, frequently have a single point of failure, and lack the tools to adapt to opposing builds or playstyles.

The more effort you have to expend to simply make your build work, the more it becomes well described by the term 'gimmick'.

Peace,
-CxE

Patccmoi · Feb 18, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Characters and/or team builds that lack the tools to execute more than a single tactic. Gimmicks have a single path to victory, frequently have a single point of failure, and lack the tools to adapt to opposing builds or playstyles.

The more effort you have to expend to simply make your build work, the more it becomes well described by the term 'gimmick'.

Peace,
-CxE

k, but can you explain why you see the build i just posted as a gimmick (not that you did directly, but since you didn't comment on it and said that more or less all Rts do is gimmicky i assume you consider it so)?

I used this in various team setup and i don't see how it is actually gimmicky. Permanent Warmonger on a melee (15 Channeling with WoQ allows that) means that you give a high dps char the ability to do close to a full lock on any enemy caster as long as you keep him clean, which gives a good amount of tactical options depending on the opposing team setup. WoQ at the same time can be used to boost the aspect of your team setup that you need the most depending on what the other teams have. Heavy caster? WoQ Dom Mesmer. Hex build? WoQ your guy with Divert or Expel Hexes to have more hex removal, or ZB to have more free heals, or LoD for more heal partying, etc.

Those 2 weapon spells alone seem like they give us a lot of tactical options by seriously buffing any aspect of our team build that we need the most and locking down one aspect of theirs that we don't want to face (Warmonger especially excell against things like wards cause just leaving someone on auto-attack on the warder gives you good chances that you'll nail the next one). You can even WoQ a SP sin and make his full combo 13s recharge. To me WoQ in a balanced setup (having different casters with different utility) is one of the most versatile elite there is.

Then you add spirits doing pressure damage and direct nukes that actually lead to very decent pressure on their own right. (Spirit Burn doing 100 on 3s recharge, Wielder's 120 on 9s recharge, Essence giving a net 5E back on 5s recharge).

Seems like decent utility and nuking power to me that fits in any kind of balanced team setup, especially if you're aiming for high pressure cause WoQ on 2-3 offensive casters and Warmonger on a melee can be extremely pressuring for another team.

Ensign · Feb 19, 2007, 06:31 AM // 06:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

k, but can you explain why you see the build i just posted as a gimmick (not that you did directly, but since you didn't comment on it and said that more or less all Rts do is gimmicky i assume you consider it so)?

All Rits are gimmicky, yes. This starts at the skill level.

A simple skill is a robust skill. Robust in that you pay the cost and it does exactly what it says it does. Good, robust skills for the Ritualist are skills like Vengeful Weapon and Pain. The fluctuations in power for a robust skill come from how effectively you can place and time the usage of the skill. In general, the greater the sensitivity of a robust skill to timing and placement, the better its design, and, again in general, the stronger the skill should be at its peak. That is to say that, say, Flare should be objectively weaker than Fireball, because Flare is simply spammed on a target, while Fireball requires better timing (spikey) and placement (AoE) to really maximize. Or, active protection skills (Spirit Bond) should be stronger than passive protection (Aegis). But the idea is the same behind all robust skills, the effect is straightforward, it's up to the player to figure out how to best make use of it.

Better than those are multifunctional or modular skills, that provide different effects at different times or more than one effect per cast period. These skills are great from both a design and a gameplay perspective, they let the player do a lot of different things with the same skill, try a lot of different strategies and tactics, and generally they lead to interesting gameplay. Protective Was Kaolai, after the recent update, is a great example of this sort of skill, it's a self-defense buff that doubles as Heal Party on demand. Freezing Gust is a modular skill that works similarly - it's either a great water snare, or a decent DD.

The other side of things are conditional skills. They're easy to spot, as they almost always contain the word 'if' in the skill description. Conditionals are more powerful than robust skills because, well, they're conditional. They fall into two general types - situational skills, and 'gimmicky' skills.

Situational skills are robust effects that depend on your opponent's actions to be fully effective. A clear example is enchantment removal - it is conditionally useful upon your opponent having an enchantment. Situational skills are generally good design, provided that the situation they address is fairly common. If the situation they're conditional upon is sufficiently rare, you're left with a skill that is too narrow to justify a skill slot on, and boosting the power level to compensate does bad things to game balance - encouraging 'build wars', so to speak.

Then there are 'gimmicky' skills. These are conditionals where you are under control of the condition, such as when you're enchanted for it to be fully effective.

Gimmicky skills are almost universally weak design. They don't add any new dimensions to gameplay - the effect of the skill very likely already exists in a more robust form, and the gimmicky skill is simply another, more powerful version of that skill that only fits into a more narrow subset of builds. Gimmicky skills end up detracting from gameplay as a result - instead of encouraging build variety, gimmicky skills tend to discourage creative builds, instead pushing people to fulfill conditions on their otherwise stronger skills rather than run the best skills for their purpose.

The degree of how gimmicky a skill is can be approximated by a couple of metrics - first, how frequently the condition on a skill would be met through normal gameplay on a particular character; second, how much more powerful the skill is than comparable skills when the condition is met; and third, how powerful the skill is if the condition is not met. The more powerful the skill is under the condition, the more hoops you have to jump through to make it usable, and the worse it is without the condition, the more gimmicky the skill is.

All of that spelled out, it should be clear why the Ritualist is so gimmicky. Most of its skills utilize the above-defined gimmicks, and of those that don't, a vast majority are weakly designed robust skills - spirits, buffs, passive defense that doesn't vary terribly much with timing, placement, or otherwise with player skill. There's no choice in the matter, virtually everything you have requires you to jump through hoops...until recently, the only robust skills that the profession had that formed any sort of basis for a character were spirits. That's just a disaster.

Anything conditional isn't neccessarily classified as a gimmick, even if the skill is gimmicky. The difference is in that clause about whether or not it's conditional on something that you'd be doing anyway. For instance, Black Spider Strike is gimmicky, but it's not widely considered to be gimmicky because it's frequently used in combination with hexes that you'd want to be casting anyway - Shadow Prison or Siphon Speed, most frequently. Hence you're not really going out of your way to use the skill, and because of it, the skill is kept at a reasonable power level. Now, if you saw Assassins carrying Parasitic Bond in order to utilize an overpowered Black Spider Strike - because there weren't any good, synergistic hexes to use with it, and Black Spider was made really strong as a result - it would most certainly be classified as a gimmick.

Similarly, if you had a Communing Ritualist which dropped some robust spirits as his basic function, then, because of those spirits, used some Channeling DDs based on having spirits down, that's not something I would widely consider to be gimmicky (or, how it usually plays out in RA, as a Communing guy who uses those spirits as a basis to power out some conditional Restoration skills). However, on the flip side, if you have people building Channeling Ritualists to take advantage of their overpowered DDs, and they bring otherwise inconsequential spirits just to power them out, then that is very rightly considered a gimmick. In fact, that's an example of the worst kind of gimmick - skills that are conditional on obscure, unrelated conditions, but buffed to ridiculous levels to 'compensate' for those conditions. All that ends up doing is breeding one-dimensional gimmick builds once people figure out how to overcome those obstacles.

Peace,
-CxE

Thomas.knbk · Feb 19, 2007, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

#924

Conclusion: Discord is the gimmick-iest skill evah.

Frank Dudenstein · Feb 19, 2007, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Conclusion: Discord is the gimmick-iest skill evah.

On the contrary...by Ensign's own argument Discord is decidedly NOT gimmicky ... observe:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Anything conditional isn't neccessarily classified as a gimmick, even if the skill is gimmicky. The difference is in that clause about whether or not it's conditional on something that you'd be doing anyway. For instance, Black Spider Strike is gimmicky, but it's not widely considered to be gimmicky because it's frequently used in combination with hexes that you'd want to be casting anyway - Shadow Prison or Siphon Speed, most frequently. Hence you're not really going out of your way to use the skill, and because of it, the skill is kept at a reasonable power level. Now, if you saw Assassins carrying Parasitic Bond in order to utilize an overpowered Black Spider Strike - because there weren't any good, synergistic hexes to use with it, and Black Spider was made really strong as a result - it would most certainly be classified as a gimmick.

Discord relies on spreading lots of useful debilitating hexes (shadow of fear, suffering) and conditions (weakness, poison, disease) and following with a spike to finish off targets. That's not a gimmick ... it's the template for how hex/pressure builds are supposed to work.

Furthermore, you don't require any specific counters to beat it .. just intelligently timed hex and condition removal plus efficient healing.

Now, just because the particulars of the skill ARE overpowered (5/1/2 for 115 armor-ignoring damage IS ridiculous regardless of the conditions that must be met) the gameplay that it promotes is right in line with standard hex/pressure and I don't see anything gimmicky about it.

Patccmoi · Feb 19, 2007, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

great post

I agree with pretty much everything there and can't say anything doesn't make sense.

But i must be obtuse cause i still can't see how it applies to the build i posted since i use 2 spirits that i want to use for pressure and that do a good job at it in their own right (it's basically 2 Pains since Bloodsong has about same DPS, cost and recharge, and as you said yourself Pain is a simple straightforward skill), 2 weapon spells that have a solid straightforward effect that i don't use specifically to meet requirement (for example i pick Wielder's Strike because i'd want WoQ anyway, not the other way around) and just 3 solid nukes that take advantage of the fact that i have spirits doing pressure and a weapon spell on my back, cause why wouldn't I?

But i won't insist. I can live with being obtuse and possibly wrong hehe. Doesn't change anything to the fact that the build works well for me as part of many different balanced setups without any specific requirement from the rest of the team, and if it's truly gimmicky well so be it! The main reason it annoyed me was because i'm tired of seeing people say that Rts are a gimmicky design wreck while ignoring the kind of build i posted which i consider solid out of any kind of gimmicky team setup and that has lots of options on its own. I'll agree that a damn lot of their skills might be this way, but not all of them, especially not since the last updates (I'll agree that at the start there was hardly anything viable out of spirit spamming). There's enough truly interesting spirit (Pain, Bloodsong, Life, Shadowsong, Recovery...), item (PwK, GwT, AwS) or weapon spells (WoQ, Warmonger, Nightmare, Splinter, Vital) that you want for their use and not just to meet requirements, just as you say an Assassin would use Siphon Speed regardless of requiring BSS or not. This wasn't true before last update though.

Cirian · Feb 19, 2007, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

All Rits are gimmicky, yes. This starts at the skill level.

<snip>

Peace,
-CxE

I can see where you're coming from. Most Rt skills that I care to take are meant to be used in combination, which you're calling gimmicky. The effect for jumping through the hoops didn't justify the effort and/or was fragile, and I'd call that gimmicky too.

However I will say that skills that I used to think of as sub-par are now very playable. Weapon of Warding for instance used to be horrible, and if you took Wielder's Boon to go with it then I would have called that a gimmick because the cumulative cast time was awful - the target would have died. Now though I'd assert that Weapon of Warding is a solid skill and Wielder's Boon is at least worth considering (1/4s cast is very eye-catching).

There are other combos that are pretty solid now too, PwK+Soothing Memories and so on, although more often than not I'm seeing Rt skills used well by N/Rts. Wash Machine, case in point, have looked flexible with their 7 necro + 1 ranger team incorporating 4 N/Rts (I also remember their N/Me Migrane/Conjure/IoR guy and N/Mo Scourge Healing/Enchantment guy but forget the last... possibly a N/E Warder). They split 5/3 when they need to. Obviously they had a ton of spirits to fuel their Soul Reaping energy engine and all the spirit requirement rit skills like MBaS and Spirit Transfer just make perfect sense in the environment they create. Even having duplicates of Life makes sense to gift most of the team with health and energy on demand. Anyhow, I think I'm off-topic. More on topic is how that lot powers their rather exotic offense - is dying from a stream of Soul Barbs triggers and other junk considered being nuked to death?

I really have to commend them for giving me a lot of entertainment on ObsMode - they're... different

Relambrien · Feb 19, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

*snip*

Greatest post ever. I can completely understand your meaning and your justifications, and I must say that it makes a ton of sense. Thanks for the insight, Ensign

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

In fact, that's an example of the worst kind of gimmick - skills that are conditional on obscure, unrelated conditions, but buffed to ridiculous levels to 'compensate' for those conditions. All that ends up doing is breeding one-dimensional gimmick builds once people figure out how to overcome those obstacles.

By this definition, Discord is another example of the worst kind of gimmick. It is conditional on obscure, unrelated conditions, (hexed and conditioned), and buffed to ridiculous levels (115 dmg on a 1s cast) to "compensate" for those conditions.

Ensign for skill balancer imo.

Thomas.knbk · Feb 19, 2007, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relambrien

Ensign for president imo.

Fixed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

On the contrary...by Ensign's own argument Discord is decidedly NOT gimmicky ... observe:

Actually it is. Ensign's example of Sins carrying Parasitic Bond in order to utilize an overpowered Black Spider Strike is exactly what's happening here, exept they use Discord instead of BSS. These necromancers carry a lot of not-so powerful hexes with them, often at very low curses because they invest all their points in Death, Soul Reaping and Restoration, that they wouldn't carry if it wasn't for Discord (though this is kind of hard to tell because the entire character wouldn't exist if it wasn't for Discord). Therefore, they're going out of their way in order to use an overpowered skill, which classifies Discord as gimmicky.
What Arenanet should have done was keep the dmg as it was (15...63..79) but lower the requirement to under the effects of a condition, OR hexed OR enchanted. Then they would have another solid skill (these requirements would be very easy to meet) that would be harder, if not impossible, to abuse.

Ensign · Feb 19, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Dudenstein

On the contrary...by Ensign's own argument Discord is decidedly NOT gimmicky.

Oh, no, Discord is possibly the most gimmicky skill in the game. Its conditions are a huge pain in the ass to fulfill, and when you do fill them the skill is ridiculous.

It's most certainly not a skill where you're spreading conditions and hexes, and then using it as a good DPS tool once everything is spread. People are throwing some conditions and hexes, sure, but then they're counting down a spike and putting up Parabond and Enfeeble, or Malign Intervention and Toxic Chill, or whatever, to put the stuff on the right target right before spiking it down. That's a pretty textbook case of being an obnoxious gimmick.

Remember that the skill is going to be gimmicky no matter what. Anything conditional is gimmicky to an extent, even the Shadow Prison / Black Spider combo. What I wanted to spell out, is that the line where a skill stops being a harmless gimmick (forced synergy, or what I'd call pre-skool level synergy design), and it starts actively degenerating the game (hay guyz we're playing Build Wars lolol) is when the conditions stop being coincidentally met and instead really want to use a conditional skill and start looking for ways to fill the condition.

I.E., if the way you arrive at Black Spider Strike is 'Shadow Prison is a great skill to jump on a target with to combo him out, what combo can I use...oh, nice, Black Spider lets me get into the goodies faster and is enabled by Shadow Prison, I'll use that', while that's gimmicky, it's not really bad gimmicky. However, if what you see is 'wow, Black Spider is an amazing skill, how can I possibly meet the condition on this so I can use this imba combo?', then there is a design problem. Simply: the gimmicky skills need to support the robust and multifunctional skills to be a positive part of the game...when the gimmicky skills are the core of the build and robust skills need to be taken to enable those gimmicky skills, then there's a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

But i must be obtuse cause i still can't see how it applies to the build i posted

Well clearly the build is gimmicky. It's also rather schizophrenic, and doesn't even have a consistent conditional.

The real question is if it's good gimmicky or bad gimmicky, and that something that you see come out of gameplay. Is the Weapon of Quickening the dominant factor, or is the (overpowered) Wielder's Strike taking over? Are the Pain and Bloodsong actually crucial elements of the build, or does it feel like they're placeholders for Essence Strike and (overpowered) Spirit Burn? I don't know.

It's hard for a build like that to not feel like a gimmick when the skills being enabled are overpowered, and were only checked previously by how obtuse their activation conditions were. I.E., once any spirit is down, Spirit Burn becomes so strong that it's very hard for you to be running a spirit build that happens to be running a Spirit Burn, and for it to not feel like a Spirit Burn build. Intention only goes so far unfortunately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

The main reason it annoyed me was because i'm tired of seeing people say that Rts are a gimmicky design wreck

Oh, they are. If I was a designer and I proposed the core mechanics of the Ritualist, and particularly the skillset they have, I would rightly expect to be looking for a new job shortly.

The biggest issue facing the profession now is that lack of robust skills. They had spirits (which got hammered to various degrees), and are starting to pick up weapons. Ashes aren't exactly a strong design characteristic, and they're not something you'll ever really build around (you'll have a guy that carries a pot, and that's the extent of it), and that's the sum of their core mechanics. Spirits, they can do some interesting things with but haven't for the most part. Weapons are getting better. Both will really need a lot of attention if they're going to make the profession robust. The big issue that's making the profession so gimmicky right now is that their conditionals are for the most part overpowered...so much so that they dominate the characters when their conditions are met. Of course previously they were weak because meeting their conditions sucked, no one wanted to do that. Now they're imbalanced and people are jumping through the hoops. It's not pretty.

So basically, while their core mechanics should be 'ground control via spirits' and 'weapon buffs and debuffs', their strongest mechanics are 'random overpowered DDs that you have to jump through hoops to use', and 'random overpowered heals that you have to jump through hoops to use'. Those are neccessarily obnoxious gimmicks. The nicest way to put it is that those gimmicks need to be nerfed into the ground, and those mechanics need a pretty thorough overhaul to give them an identity of their own and make them more robust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

I can see where you're coming from. Most Rt skills that I care to take are meant to be used in combination

You're missing something fundamental here. Every skill is meant to be used in combination. Every skill in the entire game of Guild Wars. It's just that in most cases, the combinations are open ended. For example, Reversal of Fortune is the most commonly used skill in competitive matches, and it's a combo skill. What RoF does, is act as a fast response that prevents a bit of damage, does a bit of healing, but mostly buys time. The key to RoF is that if someone's in danger of dying quickly, you can cast RoF before you cast the bigger, slower spell that will save them to buy the time to let that spell finish casting. For a very common example, RoF is frequently used before Zealous Benediction in the arenas when someone is getting hammered - the RoF stabilizes the target's health for a second, which is all you need to get the ZB to land and get their health up.

If Reversal of Fortune is a skill that winds up being used as part of a combination frequently, what skill isn't? The difference between that and the conditional skills is that the conditional skills are more rigid, their combos are more forced. In fact it's almost dishonest to call them combination skills - the real combination skills are those that get used in a dozen different combinations on the same bar. They really are pattern skills, that get used in the same pattern every time because they have to be. Ritualists are largely designed that way, meaning instead of encouraging people to find combinations they ask that people find the few effective patterns built into the skillset and repeat them over and over. That, as has been mentioned, does not lead to particularly stimulating gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

What Arenanet should have done was keep the dmg as it was (15...63..79) but lower the requirement to under the effects of a condition, OR hexed OR enchanted. Then they would have another solid skill (these requirements would be very easy to meet) that would be harder, if not impossible, to abuse.

If it was my call, the skill would be 5/1/2, deal 10...40 damage to target foe, and an additional 5...15 damage for having a condition, for a hex, and for an enchantment. I.E., it'd hit for 40 regardless, 55 for one of the three, 70 for two of three, and 85 for all three. That makes the skill more robust (you can always throw it for more damage) and it scales up with how big of a mess you've made, without ever turning into a spike risk (max damage under all conditions = 90).

Peace,
-CxE

Phades · Feb 20, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Oh, they are. If I was a designer and I proposed the core mechanics of the Ritualist, and particularly the skillset they have, I would rightly expect to be looking for a new job shortly. ... So basically, while their core mechanics should be 'ground control via spirits' and 'weapon buffs and debuffs', their strongest mechanics are 'random overpowered DDs that you have to jump through hoops to use', and 'random overpowered heals that you have to jump through hoops to use'. Those are neccessarily obnoxious gimmicks. The nicest way to put it is that those gimmicks need to be nerfed into the ground, and those mechanics need a pretty thorough overhaul to give them an identity of their own and make them more robust.

ANET has not been good at reworking mechancis, but have often put bullets into the brain of several skills with no compensation overal, which has become rather disheartening. I do think that ANET should consider fleshing out the weapon theme more and making it a complete viable alternative to enchantments and then have the spirits mirror the effects involved (to varied degrees) and priced in cast time and e cost, in order to scale up with the party wide effect invovled. Many of the spirits feel too unwieldy and a few of the weapon skills, like warding, were too unwieldy as well due to the cast time, cost, or recharge of the skill. The nukes and heals have good variety in effect and application, but if we are to compare them directly towards eles or monks is when i think we begin to start having issues. This is not to say that all the channeling nukes need a nerf or that the conditionally strong heals are over the top, but i do feel that changes in other areas could soften how awkard they feel when compared to their direct competition.

Cirian · Feb 20, 2007, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You're missing something fundamental here. Every skill is meant to be used in combination. Every skill in the entire game of Guild Wars.

That's a great highlight. I take that for granted, but it's really worth pointing out specifically because it underscores how much more rigid a lot of Ritualist skills are.

I think what happened when they were designed is that in trying to make them distinct from Monks, Necromancers, Rangers and Elementalists (Rits are a mis-mash of all of them really aren't they?), the designers tried to create some interesting new mechanics outside of what the Core classes offered and made something of a Frankenstein's monster. That's not to say there aren't some arguably solid skills now, it's just that many of them will always be obscure gimmicks - the price of having a game with hundreds of skills perhaps?

I'm certainly not going to excuse imba skills though! I do get the impression of a certain amount of desperation to come up with unique angles on skills - certainly I like obscure mechanics and combinations, but it's naturally preferable for those to be multipurpose and thus, not insane when the requirement is met.

Incidentally, what do you make of the current Rt/E Resto/Water flaggers? Typically they have 14-16 Resto / 12 Water, run flags and support a YAA + BurningArrow gank with heals, condition removal, vampiric prot, block/regen, snares, carry a speed/armour buff and potentially a hard rez. My take is that they're certainly not nukers, but they do look like decent utlility toons with decent heal/prot skills that synergise well with the 2-monk backline and can be part of an effective 3-man gank crew.

Hmm... I'll post an example skill bar for reference just in case:

1. Weapon of Warding/Vengeful Weapon
2. Weapon of Remedy {e}
3. Mend Body and Soul
4. Tenai's Prison
5. Ice Prison/GoLE
6. Armor of Mist
7. GwT/Wielder's Remedy
8. RezSig/FoMF

There are options but you get the idea

Patccmoi · Feb 20, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Alright, i understand your point mostly. It still doesn't take out the versatility and efficiency of the build to me, but i can understand why you're saying it's gimmicky (not too sure what you mean by schezophrenic, i know what that is very well but not really able to apply it to a build hehe, but that's not really important at all).

And i fully agree that skills that are overpowered when their conditions are met are bad for the game. I don't actually agree with Wielder's Strike being overpowered (recharge is fairly long, and the damage, while high, is not anything spectacular. The energy cost is very good, but for a single target nuke that's still conditional and doesn't really have any other effect than damage i think it's fine. Gotta consider the class it's on too, Rts are designed around low cost energy efficient skills to make up for their so-so emanagement as a whole), but Spirit Burn i can't really disagree. I was using it well before the last patch when Rt spikers suddenly became popular (actually i used the exact same build just after NF release, it wasn't really designed to take advantage of the new buffs), and i always considered it sooo powerful.

But i'm still wondering about one thing though here that's more related to the main thread idea. You say things like Wielder's Strike and Spirit Burn are overpowered. Ok, compared to Ele stuff i mean i could agree at least for Spirit Burn. But then again, aren't you claiming that Air nuking sucks (not utility, nuking) and is totally subpar as a whole for damage dealing (out of maybe the new dual atunement Lightning Hammer/Orb/Strike build that suffers from being very one-dimensional and, imo, even more gimmicky than a Rt since any enchant strip totally destroys it)? Isn't the strength of Rt nuking (forget Lamentation, this skill is ridiculously overpowered at .25s cast) what a viable single target nuking class SHOULD look like? Not stuck with emanagement elites because it's actually cost efficient, allowing for various utility (Expel Hexes fits well there, Weapon of Fury, Weapon of Quickening, etc.). The damage is actually threatening, requiring some sort of reaction from the other team other than 'oh, someone is nuking, let's put Prot Spirit on his target once in a while and just ignore him. Now blind that warrior'. And the conditional (for Spirit Burn for instance, you require a spirit in earshot or it's actually slightly worse than LStrike) gives the other team some extra ways to deal with the threat. Note that they don't have to take out spirits to shutdown Spirit Burn, they can just use standard caster counters (Diversion spam, EDenial, Migraine, interrupts, etc.).

I won't argue that it's designed in a gimmicky way, your point on that is good, but now that the skills are getting more and more versatile and viable ON THEIR OWN (as i said already, i think that many spirits, ashes and weapon spells are solid skills now no matter what combos along), isn't Channeling Rt achieving what single target nuking should look like? Ofc single target nuking will lead to easy spike build, but that's kinda inevitable if it's to ever be viable (unless you make all skills deal like 80-90 damage and cost 5E and recharge really fast... which would likely suck cause you'd have to spam non-stop to achieve any kind of DPS) but even the 'all dominating' Rt spikes were getting beat up more and more at the end of 8v8 HA cause it's still just a gimmick when that's all you do and people started to understand its failures.

But just like SF Eles were said to be overpowered when they weren't really (at least not 1-2 of them, 4-5 is kinda stupid and i'm sad they didn't adress that problem), mostly because they FINALLY brought some viable AOE nuking in the game, aren't Rt spikers atm said to use overpowered skills when those skills are FINALLY viable single target nukes for a primary damage dealer? Sure, maybe you have to go through some hoops, but i don't believe those hoops are a real burden anymore. I'm glad to have WoQ on my back for my full bar and to buff allies, not just for Wielder's Strike. And i'm glad to have Pain + Bloodsong to pressure, not just to power Spirit Burn. Just like sins are glad to have Siphon Speed to snare and have a speed buff and not just to BSS targets. The way i see it right now, personally i don't believe anything out of Lamentation is truly overpowered on Channeling Rt, not when you consider it as a primary DD line. Spirit Burn could possibly use a SMALL nerf, but i'd still see it at at least 90 damage when condition is met. Air is worse, but air was always considered horrible too out of the utility (Gale and blinds). So really, aren't Channeling Rts just single target nuking that doesn't suck? When Searing Flames can deal 119 damage in Nearby AOE every 3s, is Spirit Burn doing 110 damage to 1 target every 6s that overpowered? Or Wielder's Strike doing 120 every 13s? Sure, those Rt bars can bring more utility, but they're also single target. AOE is a utility of its own for SF eles.

And Cirian, i tried a new form of Rt/E runner since the buff to Trident, was pretty interesting, you might wanna try it out =p Still pretty similar

Rt/E

14 Restoration
10 Water
8 Spawning Power

Water Trident
Armor of Mist
Ice Prison or MB&S (depends on the snares on the rest of your team and how much healing power you want on the guy)
Protective was Kanei (or w/e he's called)
Vengeful Weapon
Wielder's Remedy
Soothing Memories
Weapon of Warding (use on yourself when capping)

It's a pretty good runner, and in main fight it can also help a lot by using Weapon of Warding and Water Trident to screw up melee trains (i find WT MUCH more useful in main fight than Weapon of Remedy). Has 94AL with PwK for skirmishing when not carrying flag which lets him be quite a tank, and also gives some sort of heal-party support. Soothing Memories is just very energy efficient healing.

It might be slightly worse than Remedy Weap Rt in skirmishing (still very decent though, and Water Trident is a really good skirmish skill), but to support your main team i find it far superior.

FoxBat · Feb 20, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

isn't Channeling Rt achieving what single target nuking should look like? Ofc single target nuking will lead to easy spike build, but that's kinda inevitable if it's to ever be viable (unless you make all skills deal like 80-90 damage and cost 5E and recharge really fast... which would likely suck cause you'd have to spam non-stop to achieve any kind of DPS)

Maybe this was discussed earlier in this thread, but I wonder if this is what is really holding nuking back. Typically whenever spell-based offense are used by better teams on anything other than NPCs, it takes the form of spike, fast cast air spike, spiritual pain spike, etc. and is subsequently declared gimmicky and nerfed. What kind of possible role is there for pure damage spells in a "balanced" build that doesn't degenerate into spike or SF spam? Can anyone point out or design a few examples of pure damage skills that could appear on a flexible character's skill bar in a "balanced" build?

The MoM smiter may be one of the few examples of a usable but not incredibly powerful pressure-spellcaster, and one that is simply not viable as a 4-of build (you need some melee to smite off of and half the power is the constant draw conditions...)

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 21, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

What kind of possible role is there for pure damage spells in a "balanced" build that doesn't degenerate into spike or SF spam?

DoT. Effective damage-over-time skills allow for a spike-free mechanic that quickly starts to pressure monks recharge/energy reserves if not dealt with. Smiting as caster pressure has been off-and-on viable since release, and in every case it's because of the stacking DoT AoEs from Balthazar's Aura + Zealot's Fire spam. SF tries to create a similar mechanic by stacking degen with spammable damage, but in multiples it starts to get really spikey as 5 guys deal 119 damage to an AoE because the entire enemy team is already burning.

Unfortunately, Guild Wars provides very few strong DoT options, and Arenanet seems very reluctant to buff those that do exist. Smiting aside, most of the DoT skills are shitty little AoEs that you have to stand in (Firestorm!), or they come in the form of degen.

Degen skills are incredibly efficent damage, but they're limited by the limit of 20 DPS on a single target. 5 energy spent casting Reaper's Mark can deal 360 damage, but Reaper's Mark man isn't singlehandedly overpowering your team because his damage has to be spread around a lot of different targets. This in turn makes him vulnerable to the ultra-efficent heals provided by LoD and/or Heal Party. As a result, degen just forces the Heal Party guy to stand in the back and hold down the 6 key. Degen only becomes a serious threat if your HP/LoD gets shut down, at which point it will break your team in record time if even a little additional pressure gets thrown in. The end result of this is that degen is a decent supplement to damage that creates a credible threat with the right disruption, but you can't make a pure degen character and act like he's going to be what causes the other team to die.

Unfortunately, Arenanet has elected to ignore all this and just repeatedly buff the DDs in the hopes that casters will eventually be good pressure characters. Of course, high-damage fast-cast DDs just make me want to throw pressure out the window entirely and 321spike people every 5 seconds or so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat

Can anyone point out or design a few examples of pure damage skills that could appear on a flexible character's skill bar in a "balanced" build?

Apply Poison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foxbat

The MoM smiter may be one of the few examples of a usable but not incredibly powerful pressure-spellcaster, and one that is simply not viable as a 4-of build (you need some melee to smite off of and half the power is the constant draw conditions...)

You're absolutely right about smiting, though I think the MoM smiter is one of the less flexible iterations. The AoE smiter of post-Factions was a more flexible character with a lot of powerful offensive and defensive plays, but it's not really viable these days thanks to a long line of nerfs. The smiting mechanic is right though - deal meaningful non-degen DoT effects consistently and you have the basis for viable caster damage in Guild Wars.

Unfortunately, it's not a mechanic that fits into Arenanet's skill system well. Every negative effect you can apply to an opponent is either a condition (easy to apply and remove), or a hex (design trainwreck.) Neither of those is going to work well as a means to apply effective DoTs to single targets.

Ensign · Feb 21, 2007, 02:39 AM // 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

it's just that many of them will always be obscure gimmicks - the price of having a game with hundreds of skills perhaps?

A consequence of lazy, poor skill design. I can't stress this enough, and I will continue to absolutely hammer designers who put out skills like that because multifunctional skills are *just as easy* to design as cheap gimmicks.

You've designed N interesting, robust skill concepts for a class or line? Great. You instantly have (N-1)^2 dual-function skills that you can design and implement. Let's have fun with a line that the GW design team seems to be having real trouble designing skills for: Healing.

Typing out dual-function skills until my typing catches up with ideas:

*Target ally is healed for X, and gains +Y health regeneration for Z seconds
*Target ally is healed for X, and healed again after Y seconds for an additional X.
*Target ally and all nearby allies are healed for X.
*All party members gain +X health regeneration for Y seconds.
*You and target ally are healed for X.
*Every time target ally attacks, casts a spell, or takes damage, he is healed for X.
*Target ally gains +X health regeneration. If that ally is below half health, he is healed for Y.
*Target ally is healed for X. For Y seconds, that ally gains Z health whenever he attacks or uses a skill.
*Target ally and all nearby allies gain X health regeneration for Y seconds.
*Target ally is healed for X. For the next Y seconds, that ally is healed for Z every time he takes damage.
*Target ally is healed for X. If that ally is near another ally, all nearby allies are healed for an additional Y.
*Target ally gains +X health regeneration for Y seconds, and an additional +X health regeneration if that ally's health is below 50%.

There we go, tack on a couple obvious holes like a 10 mana targeted heal (seriously, WTF is with that never being made) and 5 minutes of splicing skills together has enough concepts for the next two chapters worth of healing skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Incidentally, what do you make of the current Rt/E Resto/Water flaggers?

They take advantage of the robust defensive weapons, and combine that with energy efficient snares. They're good, flexible offensive/defensive templates that are good for the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

And i fully agree that skills that are overpowered when their conditions are met are bad for the game. I don't actually agree with Wielder's Strike being overpowered (recharge is fairly long, and the damage, while high, is not anything spectacular.

126 damage on a 1s cast is spectacular. That and Gaze from Beyond are the highest damage 1s cast DDs in the game.

Wielder's Strike is clearly overpowered simply from the way I've discussed it in the past. Coversations have always been along the lines of "Wielder's Strike is amazing, how can we get a weapon to use this? Why do all these weapons suck? Do you think I can cast Vengeful Weapon on myself and then Wielder's Strike someone?". Something is horribly wrong when I'm actively looking to try and jump through hoops to use a skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Gotta consider the class it's on too, Rts are designed around low cost energy efficient skills to make up for their so-so emanagement as a whole

Channeling guys have pretty good energy management - Essence Strike is incredible (a bit overpowered IMO), and you have an in-attribute Offering of Blood (Spirit) if you want more energy. Of course, you don't actually need any of that, because all of your skills cost 5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Isn't the strength of Rt nuking (forget Lamentation, this skill is ridiculously overpowered at .25s cast) what a viable single target nuking class SHOULD look like?

Not really, no. As far as sustainable DPS goes air damage is about where it should be - we can argue about how much utility that guy should be able to carry but the damage is roughly where it should be now.

What single target nuking *should* look like is a bit of sustainable DPS, with periods of high cost, greatly increased damage. Ritualists don't really fit into that, because they do the highly increased damage but at no cost. All of their huge DPS skills are fast, cost 5 energy, and recharge quickly. That's not high cost situational nuking, that's just massive, imba damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

'oh, someone is nuking, let's put Prot Spirit on his target once in a while and just ignore him. Now blind that warrior'.

Honestly I haven't given a shit about Protective Spirit for caster DPS in a while. You find someone without prot, blast him, watch for the Prot Spirit, when you see the obvious animation, switch targets, hit someone else. It's the same concept as playing a Warrior and dodging Guardian. As long as you don't care where you put the damage, Prot Spirit really doesn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

aren't Rt spikers atm said to use overpowered skills when those skills are FINALLY viable single target nukes for a primary damage dealer?

Again, there's no real cost. Nukes don't exist for eles, at least for single targets, because the biggest, most expensive Ele DDs are just good enough to make acceptable DPS. What you'd want to have to nuke is faster, more expensive skills that *would* burn out your energy, but would do exceptional DPS for that price. I don't think they can design those anymore, though, because double attunements have basically taken away any mechanism for making that energy cost matter.

You can achieve that DPS with a Ritualist right now, sure, but it's at no cost in terms of energy or even recharge. That's why it's broken. A skill that deals 126 damage on a 1s cast should cost at least 10, and probably 15 if it's on an attractive recharge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

i don't believe those hoops are a real burden anymore.

That's basically why Channeling broke. All the skills were being buffed and buffed under this premise that you couldn't realistically make them work with all the hoops you needed to jump through. The latest patch finally addressed those hoops, and the ridiculous levels that the Channeling DDs were buffed to finally got to make a mess of the metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

personally i don't believe anything out of Lamentation is truly overpowered on Channeling Rt, not when you consider it as a primary DD line.

My list of overpowered Channeling skills:

Bloodsong, Gaze from Beyond, Lamentation, Spirit Burn, Wielder's Strike

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

Spirit Burn could possibly use a SMALL nerf, but i'd still see it at at least 90 damage when condition is met.

Agreed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patccmoi

is Spirit Burn doing 110 damage to 1 target every 6s that overpowered?

Of course not. It's also not the only skill on your bar.

Is a skill dealing 110 every 6 seconds for 5 energy and a 1s cast time too good? Absolutely. As you said, it should deal around 90.

Peace,
-CxE

Morganas · Feb 21, 2007, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Spiking wouldn't be an issue to worry about if death mechanics were changed. For instance, implement the concept of negative hit points, which would appear as zero hp on the health bar. Being damaged into negative health wouldn't kill you unless you remained that way for a half second or so. Now you can have a real nuke mechanic.

I'm not sure how well this would go over with people, but I and many others hate a game whose outcome is determined by your infusers latency.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 21, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

Spiking wouldn't be an issue to worry about if death mechanics were changed. For instance, implement the concept of negative hit points, which would appear as zero hp on the health bar. Being damaged into negative health wouldn't kill you unless you remained that way for a half second or so. Now you can have a real nuke mechanic.

I'm not sure how well this would go over with people, but I and many others hate a game whose outcome is determined by your infusers latency.

A better way to handle this would be a damage queue system where you cannot take more than x damage over a given second. Any damage above that total is inflicted in the following second.

However, as much as I hate pure spike builds, it's far too late to implement this sort of system. The outcry and ragequits would be huge.