Curse

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 15, 2006, 09:36 AM // 09:36

A warrior has stronger auto-attacks attacks, and can spike a target down faster than a sin if his adrenal skills are charged. He also has better things to do between adrenal spikes, typically. He can spread KDs and disruption through stuff like Bull's Strike and Distracting Blow, and his auto-attacks combined with the threat of Frenzy are enough that he really has to be kited.

I've seen a lot of guilds running Coward Sins at the flagstand recently, but I have to say that none of them have really impressed me. They don't present the same threat as a warrior, and their combos are pitifully easy to D-shot or otherwise interrupt. Add in the possibility of wards or an Aegis chain and you have a pretty ineffective character.

The advantage of assassins is movement control, which is why they're used so often in ganking. You can force them to send someone back to deal with your assassin, then have the assassin teleport back to the stand to add extra pressure. Their combos are also well-suited to skirmish situations, since they can drop a character relatively quickly without needing to be charged. A warrior usually enters a skirmish without adrenaline, which means he won't be able to quickly drop an NPC or force a kill. He'll have to build first, and if monks aren't nearby the time it takes to build can be devastating.

Ensign · Oct 15, 2006, 07:37 PM // 19:37

The "Coward!" Assassins have never impressed me. They feel like really bad Warriors for the most part. I'm really surprised that build has remained popular.

Peace,
-CxE

Ensign · Oct 16, 2006, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieInBasra

Im A Paladin frequently ran evis and lacerateing chop or executioner strike without frenzy. That's not really a spike, that's alot more like pressure.

That axe build is designed to solo-kill a Monk that doesn't recieve any help from his team. It's a shock+interrupt combo that creates its own window of disruption in which to kill. It most certainly is not a 'pressure axe' build. If you look at the Treacherous Empire builds from that time period, you'll see that they put a lot of emphasis on coordinating strong mes effects to create extended windows of opportunity where an opponent could not oppose their offense, and then dealing just enough damage to score kills. That axe build fits in perfectly with that philosophy.

In general you only want to take an axe in PvP for its strong adrenaline spiking properties - it has the hardest, fastest, most unconditional spikes for a Warrior. If adrenaline spiking isn't your primary concern, you should probably be running a sword or hammer of some flavor. For the straight pressure and solo-spike threat recently mentioned, a Dragon Slasher is likely the best Warrior you could bring, followed by a Backbreaker hammer. The former has the highest damage output and the best chance to drop a target from moderate health before anyone can respond - the Backbreaker guy is the best tool for scoring a kill on anyone who wanders too far away from his Monks.

Peace,
-CxE

Wasteland Squidget · Oct 17, 2006, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

That axe build is designed to solo-kill a Monk that doesn't recieve any help from his team. It's a shock+interrupt combo that creates its own window of disruption in which to kill. It most certainly is not a 'pressure axe' build. If you look at the Treacherous Empire builds from that time period, you'll see that they put a lot of emphasis on coordinating strong mes effects to create extended windows of opportunity where an opponent could not oppose their offense, and then dealing just enough damage to score kills. That axe build fits in perfectly with that philosophy.

I think we're talking about a different build here. The one we ran in our triple smite is something we copied from Te several months ago (it was the first time we'd seen much of warriors without Frenzy.) The bar looked like this:

-Eviscerate
-Executioners Strike
-Bull's Strike
-Distracting Blow
-Prot Strike
-Lacerating Chop
-Rush
-Res Sig

No Shock, so this obviously isn't the build you're discussing. The standard Shock Axe is obviously a strong template, and a fair amount of that strength comes from the 6-second KD it can apply through Bull's Strike followed by Shock. The above template can't solo a monk in the way you're talking about, but it is something Te ran.

Agreed on the power of a Dragon Slasher though - those things can be terrifying in the right pressure build.

Lightwave · Nov 22, 2006, 09:46 AM // 09:46

I'd really like to see Ensign make a revision of his first post to reflect the updates and the new skills from Nightfall.

Riotgear · Nov 22, 2006, 11:11 AM // 11:11

heh, not sure there's much to revise it with. Most of the figures and problems still hold true, the only difference is that now the Holy Trinity of searing/glowing/liquid pumps out abusive DPS.

Aside from that though, it's still all flagging/heal party, and every so often someone runs Mind Shock.

The reason searing flames is viable is not only that it's high damage, but it's one of the only elementalist damage options that can be kept up perpetually without suffering from energy burnout. That hasn't changed, and remains the biggest problem.

Thomas.knbk · Nov 22, 2006, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

heh, not sure there's much to revise it with. Most of the figures and problems still hold true, the only difference is that now the Holy Trinity of searing/glowing/liquid pumps out abusive DPS.

Isn't 'abusive' DPS exaxtly what nuking is supposed to be? So nuking doesn't suck anymore! Or is there something I'm not seeing?
Something I'd like to see is if Searing Lames/GG/Liquid does more DPS then a warrior under Frenzy (almost sure it does, but I want ensign to do it xD), and if it does, how does it compare to a warrior who's using attack skills.
Oh heck, I'll test it myself

Symbol · Nov 22, 2006, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Searing flames + liquid flame + glowing gaze is roughly 52-53 dps to a single target. So it doesn't really need to hit multiple targets to be effective, it's already equivalent to a frenzied shock axer using evisc/executioners/critical chop done at range. It's also energy sustainable.

The problem is, as always, that it's much much more vulnerable than said warrior to shutdown. It's a glass cannon, which is a good model for elementalists IMO.

Riotgear · Nov 22, 2006, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Isn't 'abusive' DPS exaxtly what nuking is supposed to be? So nuking doesn't suck anymore!

More like "searing flames doesn't suck." Which is more like saying "searing flames combined with glowing gaze doesn't suck."

As for the attunement, you can spam SF and Glowing perpetually with energizing wind even with no attunement, which is what a lot of people are packing to power SF.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to finally see elementalists viable as damage, it's just a pity that it's wound up being one three-skill combo which manages to be omgwtfpwnage while everything else still sucks.

Quote:

It seems totally arbitrary to me.

Realistically, 1e difference on SF itself isn't going to change anything. It's effectively 1 pip of regen, since liquid and glowing are unaffected, and that's if you spam NOTHING but SF.

Patccmoi · Nov 22, 2006, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad to finally see elementalists viable as damage, it's just a pity that it's wound up being one three-skill combo which manages to be omgwtfpwnage while everything else still sucks.

Meh, i don't think that's actually true. Shatterstone/Lightning Surge are good elites, the Mind spells are pretty powerful, Savannah Heat is actually quite solid combined with Gale or another KD, etc. The thing is that Searing Flame is so brainless and easy to use for the strength it has and so powerful at VoD in GvG that there isn't really a reason to run something else atm.

Ensign · Nov 22, 2006, 11:59 PM // 23:59

The problem with those other elites is that they aren't self-contained characters. You have to still get a lot of milage out of the rest of your skill bar, and that's still pretty anemic. Searing Flames is a self-contained elite, it's an ok damage spell but it's on a really attractive recharge. Hence you can just stuff your bar with emanagement and forget about all those other bad spells. If you try and do that with Shatterstone or a Mind spell, you're going to fail miserably.

Peace,
-CxE

TLLOTS · Nov 23, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Searing flames + liquid flame + glowing gaze is roughly 52-53 dps to a single target. So it doesn't really need to hit multiple targets to be effective, it's already equivalent to a frenzied shock axer using evisc/executioners/critical chop done at range. It's also energy sustainable.

While the damage on a single target is ok, certainly better than any other Elementalist options, it's still not worth it if you're only hitting one target with any regularity. Being a glass canon, it needs to be doing a lot of damage to justify such a fragile and inflexible character. Unfortunately like most AoE spells, this makes it a pretty poor choice. It's good for punishing the opposing team if they're all trying to beat the snot out of your flag carrier, but the rest of the time your effectiveness is dependant on how smart your opposition is about its positioning.

Symbol · Nov 23, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLLOTS

While the damage on a single target is ok, certainly better than any other Elementalist options, it's still not worth it if you're only hitting one target with any regularity. Being a glass canon, it needs to be doing a lot of damage to justify such a fragile and inflexible character. Unfortunately like most AoE spells, this makes it a pretty poor choice. It's good for punishing the opposing team if they're all trying to beat the snot out of your flag carrier, but the rest of the time your effectiveness is dependant on how smart your opposition is about its positioning.

I disagree with your characterization. That sort of damage is not "ok" in my book, it's "very good". The nature of searing flames (ranged, instant hit) means that what you can do to mitigate the damage without using skill slots is very limited. Whereas a character with no melee hate can still reduce the incoming damage from a warrior by kiting, and their team can reduce the damage still further by preventing said warrior from frenzying all the time. That's not to say that it's a favorable trade (by chasing someone around you're preventing them from doing anything), but the actual delivered damage for searing flames is going to be higher absent specific caster hate.

The other shoe drops when the opposing team does bring a couple of enchant strips, or diversion, or distracting shot. Then the SF elementalist becomes a potential liability.

That isn't to say that SF would be worthwhile if you weren't getting some mileage out of the AoE, but IMO it's not because the single target damage isn't very good, it is, but because you can get roughly equivalent single target damage out of (say)a mindblaster with a lot of extra utility added in.

Quote:

It's good for punishing the opposing team if they're all trying to beat the snot out of your flag carrier, but the rest of the time your effectiveness is dependant on how smart your opposition is about its positioning.

It's not just that. Even with the best positioning you're going to catch two or more people in the blast pretty often with "nearby" radius and a 1s cast time. IMO the big issue is whether your team is prepared to proactively cover for that character's deficiencies (by covering the attunement with other enchants, disrupting opposing dom mesmers, making sure that the ranger isn't getting his interrupts off, etc).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Although to be fair, warriors are also incredibly easy to shutdown. blind>them, they just have a draw bot to keep them clean. or they touch themselves (mending touch) or touch others (plague touch). Of course, some people think doing that is gimping your warrior bar.

The difference between melee shutdown and caster shutdown is right there in the post. Yeah it's easy to make a warrior ineffective, but it's equally easy to keep them clean. On the other hand if your attunment gets stripped or your SF gets diverted, say good bye to your effectiveness for the next minute or so because there's nothing your team can do to help you out.

Zuranthium · Nov 23, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The problem with those other elites is that they aren't self-contained characters. You have to still get a lot of milage out of the rest of your skill bar, and that's still pretty anemic. Searing Flames is a self-contained elite, it's an ok damage spell but it's on a really attractive recharge. Hence you can just stuff your bar with emanagement and forget about all those other bad spells. If you try and do that with Shatterstone or a Mind spell, you're going to fail miserably.

Peace,
-CxE

So would you say the Mind spells still need another buff? I remember that you thought they were amazing after the last go-around. I'm still pushing for them to cause the secondary effects no matter what (and more damage on Mind Freeze).

Shatterstone just doesn't make any sense. Why does the Water line have that kind of spell? Meh. If it is to be useful, though, it should go to a 1 second cast and have some kind of benefit on the second burst (interrupting the foe seems the most reasonable to me).

Lightning Surge would also be nice on a 1 second cast, if the damage had the normal 25% armor penetration that all other lightning spells do.

~Z

Riotgear · Nov 23, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

So would you say the Mind spells still need another buff?

Yes. They need to not cause exhaustion if the secondary effects fail. Although the Mind spells are IMO effectively doomed because the only real point in packing a skill that exhausts is either massive utility or spiking. Elementalists are not what I'd call in need of more ways to spike. Searing Flames + Glowing Gaze does what Mind Burn does.... without the exhaustion. Oops!

I wouldn't say any of the elites in particular need a buff, I'd say they simply need to look at the synergy created by SF/glowing that allows it to be cast non-stop and actually be affordable without running an energy elite, then take that lesson and do something with it. Do something like make better ways to manage energy (in GG's case, hurting stuff) than attunements.

The elites are mostly oriented towards packing some massive punch as well, which is fine as long as the filler is good. Which is where the real problem is, the problem isn't that, for example, Mind Burn sucks. It's that when you're not casting Mind Burn, you're casting Immolate, Flare, Fireball, Liquid Flame, or something like that, which aren't worth the energy cost, and certainly can't be spammed even with a basic attunement without depleting.

Ensign · Nov 23, 2006, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

So would you say the Mind spells still need another buff?

No, I think that the skills that aren't elite need to be buffed until the profession doesn't need to crutch so heavily on its elite to be effective (Ala Warriors, Monks, and Mesmers).

Peace,
-CxE

Thom Bangalter · Nov 25, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

I think squidget also pointed out something else noteworthy about searing flames:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I've guested with some lower ranked guilds recently and watched their flagstand teams getting blown up in seconds by SF/thumper teams. SF isn't a really powerful offensive tool in high level play because it lacks flexibility, but at the lower levels its "point and shoot" nature is absolutely brutal. Skills that don't get better with player skill are absolutely brutal on the lower tiers of the ladder.

Hence the call for a nerf by so many players. Can't learn2play? Just hope that Anet makes the skill suck! I think the skill currently is the gem of the fire line, but as noted so many times in this thread, the line still lacks the flexibility to make it useful. Snaring, blinding, and wards make all the other lines a lot stronger, but searing flames just beats the crap out of the lower end of the ladder. I'd really like to see the skill stay as is so you can just run it every time the ladder resets to get to your guild's proper rank instead of having multiple drawn out battles with bad guilds, but we'll see if that happens...

Neo-LD · Nov 26, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Thumpers and searing eles get alot of undeserved hate. There are three possible reasons one would want to run thump/sear:

1) You are a bad player who wants to use an extremely simple, effective and proven build to be able to play and win. These kinds of players are the ones that generate all the hate from more skilled players, who hate the notion of getting beaten by noobs who can do nothing but mash attack buttons. My response to people who lose to noobs using this build is simply this: why cant you beat it? Are you worse than them? If not, then the only possible explanation is that your build is worse. Perhaps you should consider running thumpers and searing eles like them.

2) You are a good player who wants to farm the ladder as quickly as possible, burn through games and end up with a "W" or "L" in a matter of minutes. You will come up against good teams who can handle you, but far more teams that cannot; thus allowing you to gain rating steadily until you approach the top of the ladder. One can argue exactly where the going becomes tough (top100, top50, w/e) but this moot. These guys get a bunch of hate too since its dishonorable or some other rubbish to use anything less than the build which gives you the greatest chance to win individual games. My response to those who hate for these reasons is this: teams are free to choose whatever they want to bring to battles. If you dont like it, tough. If you think its weak, beat it and prove it to them. But they are free to bring whatever they want, regardless of whether its for shameless ladder farming or not.

3) You are a good player making a concious build choice based on the merit of the build in an individual game. You disregard the ladder farming benifits of the build - you want to play it simply because you believe that a maxed out offense is your surest route to victory. In my eyes, Thump/Sear is just a Nightfall version of the KGYU offensive strategy. Scary but mitigatable offense, skimpy defense, you get the picture. I dont think these guys should get any hate at all, but they do anyways since its impossible to tell these guys apart from the ones in category 2.

Thump/Sear is not as particularly devoid of skill as many other 'gimmicks,' for lack of a better term. However, this is not the point - what is the point is that it is the most effective offensive pressure strategy in the game. The word for people that ignore or shun the most effective strategy because it is unpopular or immoral is scrub. Scrubs dont compete, they float. That said, why do we not see more SearingThumpers? Honestly I think I face a genuine searing/thumper build maybe once every 3 or 4 nights. I face a team that happens to contain a thumper or searing ele maybe once a night. Why? Because even the SearingThumpers cannot break good paragon teams. You can hammer them all you like, you will not succeed. Everyone forgoes SearingThumpers for a strategy that, quite simply, is better.

Summation: Searing Thumpers is not imbalanced, not common, not particualrly devoid of skill (and even if it were, this fact would be largely irrelevent).... so what gives? Needless hate, imo. Go complain about EF. Thats a skill worth hating, if I ever saw one.

Riotgear · Nov 26, 2006, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If not, then the only possible explanation is that your build is worse. Perhaps you should consider running thumpers and searing eles like them.

This is exactly WHY they hate them.

And no, the only explanation is NOT that their build is worse, it's that their build takes significantly more practice to run. You could copy one of the builds the top guilds use that spank SF/Thump and still get rolled by ones with players fresh off the short bus. In that case, you need more practice, but getting steamrolled is not a very educational experience. You don't GET to see what works and what doesn't against it, because all you really get to do is die, unless you're running a counter-FOTM build like 5-Dervish Melandru Death Spike that's DESIGNED to farm it.

Perhaps more importantly, and in direct response to this...

Quote:

The word for people that ignore or shun the most effective strategy because it is unpopular or immoral is scrub. Scrubs dont compete, they float.

... this sort of premise simply does not work in a game that gets REBALANCED PERIODICALLY and advertises itself as handing victory to the more skilled players. A certain degree of handicap is acceptable, obviously.

Look, we've all read the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Sirlin article. It works great when you apply it to fighter games which get released once, but pulling the "durrrrrr, learn2play and stop whining about cheapness!" card doesn't work in a game where "cheap" gets phased out every time the ladder closes BECAUSE people complain about it.

Quote:

Go complain about EF. Thats a skill worth hating, if I ever saw one.

Doesn't this completely contradict the rest of your post?

Neo-LD · Nov 26, 2006, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

This is exactly WHY they hate them. Because there is very little you can "learn" from SF/Thump or any other FOTM build, other than maybe how to make builds that farm them and suck hard against most other things, or how to run it yourself.

Incorrect. The logic you use is valid when applied to spike builds, but that is as far as it goes. People learn little from spike because there are few to no independent decisions that spikers are responsible for. The only person that has to make skillful decisions is the caller, the rest only do what they are told. With builds like SearingThumper, and similar builds in the past such as Triple Smite, there is in fact many things to be "learned." True offensive talent is very rare; most players outside the top20 are 'ok' at it, but being actually good at pressure is difficult. Playing SearingThumper can help those players learn to play offense more effectively. Earlier this season my guild ran SearingThumper - from the time we began to the time we finished our time playing it, we improved quite a bit. Im glad we ran it. Also - consider Moa Birds. If SearingThumper requires so little skill to play, how come they are ~#40 and there isnt a single other searingthumper team in the top100? SearingThumper is not devoid of necessary skill, and it is the most effective offensive option available at this point.

Quote:

... this sort of premise simply does not work in a game that gets REBALANCED PERIODICALLY and advertises itself as handing victory to the more skilled players. A certain degree of handicap is acceptable, obviously.

Look, we've all read the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing Sirlin article. It works great when you apply it to fighter games which get released once, but pulling the "durrrrrr, learn2play and stop whining about cheapness!" card doesn't work in a game where "cheap" gets phased out every time the ladder closes BECAUSE people complain about it.

There will always be "cheap" stuff. The minute that the old "cheap" stuff is fixed, everyone will just use the second-most-cheap stuff. Basically your argument is that by voluntarily playing inferior builds, once the game reaches the point where it is perfectly balanced, you will be awesome players and everyone that abused the previously good stuff will be bad by comparison. This argument has several difficulties:

1) There is no guarentee that the game will ever reach that point. It could take years and years of tweaks and balances for the game to reach anywhere near a "perfect balance." Also, a new chapter is released every 6 months, how do you expect the game to ever stabilize for good, or for any reasonable length of time? Lastly, what guarentee do you have that the game dev's vision of a perfectly balanced game is the same as yours? Maybe you think that you are getting better at "actual guild wars" by practicing up on your crip shot and dom mesmer, but what if the Game Devs think the game would be better if those characters were weak and the game would be better dominated by assasins, ritualist nukers, and smite monks? True, that particular example doesnt make sense given Anet's recent direction of balance changes, but you can insert any other character builds in their place. You have no guarentee that your vision of a perfect guild wars is what guild wars will actually turn out to be.

2) Most players that are using fotm or "gimmick" builds are actually getting better, as well. Perhaps they arent as good at dom mesmers or crip shots (or whatever you think "real guild wars" is) as you are, but they are indeed getting better. Their communication is improving, their coordination is building, their teamwork is developing - any group of 8-12 players that can stay together for a long period of time can and will improve, (almost) regardless of build they are running. My only exception I take to this rule is spike.

Quote:

Doesn't this completely contradict the rest of your post?

My entire post was about things deserving to be complained about. Searing does not. EF does. Regardless of whether I complain about it (and I do) I still run it because its one of the most powerful skills in the game right now.