Curse

Ensign · Aug 08, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Lightning Strike is junk to be honest. You just run it on an ele for small fights, because it's basically impossible to kill anything with Orb alone unless they are very heavily DPed. If you run it at all, that is.

Every skill on a character's bar needs to be money. It needs to allow you to make plays you otherwise wouldn't be able to make, or cause a problem for the other team that's hard to deal with, or otherwise have a significant impact on the game. Orb is a decent skill because it allows its user to help spike someone down, and the fast recharge allows it to be used often. Strike? In 8v8 it's a blah Orb followup because there's absolutely nothing else to use, and the only really compelling reason to use it in my mind is that it lets you kill people 1v1.

Offensive skills that are playable have multiple uses beyond strictly dealing damage. This is true across all professions. Lightning Orb is like Executioner's or Final Thrust, it isn't just damage, it's heavily compressed damage that can be used to spike people out. What other sorts of attack skills do you see used? From warriors and assassins, your attacks don't just deal damage, they either apply conditions (deep wounds, cripple, degen), knock down, get around or even punish common warrior counters (Irresistible Blow, Sun and Moon Slash), or serve some other utility purpose (Wild Blow). Rangers largely follow the same pattern - Dual Shot spikes, you have interrupts that either disable or double as spike skills, and your preparations add utility to the character. Domination mesmers use damage skills that are dual purpose - edenial + damage, enchantment removal + damage - that make them powerful on multiple levels (time compression, flexible usage, efficiency). The best hexes are dual purpose as well - some sort of shutdown combined with degen. The few elementalist DDs that are popular follow the same pattern - Deep Freeze and Ice Spikes are damage + snare (a strong effect naturally), Lightning Orb is a significant spike on a fast recharge. Hell, the only attack skills that get used at all that don't have some sort of secondary effect that you can maximize are assassin offhand attacks, and that's only the case because you need an offhand to use a dual attack and all the options are terrible.

Along those lines, I don't think that fire is a doomed line, it's just that the skills that you have available to use are all seriously underpowered. Fireball is fine, it's a slightly weaker spike skill than Lightning Orb but it's cheaper, and sometimes rocks people on the AoE. Immolate just doesn't do enough as is, but it has some potential with a little more love because it gets around Protective Spirit and (as long as you aren't 16 specced) Spirit Bond. Meteor, if not for the horrendous recharge and lack of synergy with every good energy elite, would be a strong skill - knockdown plus heavy damage is incredibly powerful. Then you have AoE. AoE is very strong in PvP because of what it does to opponent's positioning and movement, and you see that in common skill selections - Energy Surge, Deep Freeze, even smiting. the only problem with fire AoEs is that they're really bad. Rodgorts, if you hit 3-4 people with it, is really scary. The only problem is that it's hard to hit 3-4 people with it consistently because of the anemic AoE - I honestly prefer a low specced Deep Freeze to a high specced Rodgorts. DOTAoEs aren't bad at all - they deal damage and force opponents to move from a location - but they suffer from tiny AoEs and long recharges. The AoE problems are largely based in PvE I think, but I'd hope those are less relevant now.

Basically I think the fire line is actually in good shape mechanically to be turned into something good, if only the power level was reasonable. Air and earth are more problematic I think, as spiking is the only significant mechanic air has, and earth just doesn't have an identity.

Peace,
-CxE

TheOneMephisto · Aug 13, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Malaise is only good as a spammable coverhex and something to spam in the downtime, mostly because if you're using a heavy pressure build and pressuring them right, them switching down is just another thing to worry about.

Wither is just wither that takes away your elite.

Phades · Aug 26, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spallenzani

Also, with regard to fire elementalists in pvp, iQ proved today that they can be useful if you are willing to wait 35+ minutes before starting the battle. :P

Also note that the bulk of the effect from fire was directed at the NPCS who are not smart enough to yield ground or spread out.

Red Locust · Aug 27, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Considering that melee is the best DPS machine, and many classes (including warriors) can spike better than eles, I'd really be interested in seeing elementalists become "area control".

They've already got some of that going with wards, but most of it is defensive. I'm thinking something like a jacked up firestorm or other such DoT area effect skills with serious damage and/or negative effects so as to force you out of an area. Meteor shower is an example, but it lasts too short and recharges too long for it to be anything more than a gimmick/clutch spell that you end up using on rare occasions during a game. You'd be placing these in the same way as wards, or perhaps you could select a spot at ~half aggro range away as the epicenter of the AoE.

I think that's pretty much the only area that's not covered by any of the other classes (except for trappers, which I suppose could cause some conflict) and it would probably be a good area for the elementalist to venture into. There might be balance issues associated with being able to continually push an enemy out of an area, especially in the tighter maps, but nothing that good balancing wouldn't fix

Phades · Aug 27, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

I think that's pretty much the only area that's not covered by any of the other classes (except for trappers, which I suppose could cause some conflict) and it would probably be a good area for the elementalist to venture into. There might be balance issues associated with being able to continually push an enemy out of an area, especially in the tighter maps, but nothing that good balancing wouldn't fix

Considering maps have terrain features like lava and spiked coral which already simulate this effect, it really shouldnt be an issue. Also, the trap mechanic exists and is far more flexable than the current DOT AOE setup anyhow.

Master Fuhon · Aug 27, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

They've already got some of that going with wards, but most of it is defensive. I'm thinking something like a jacked up firestorm or other such DoT area effect skills with serious damage and/or negative effects so as to force you out of an area.

I've always thought that the ward mechanic was currently the best one that they have working right now, and Bed of Coals is the closest to the idea that you describe. The problem with damage over wards is that they would stack. Once the spell gets off, it will run it's course for the full amount of time, whether or not any Henchmen or Guild Lords decide that it isn't worth running from. That's where I see the cap being placed on firestorm. You can't have Guild Lords/Ghostly Heros that aggro away from home base. So in other words, I believe the damage will at least be limited again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Locust

I think that's pretty much the only area that's not covered by any of the other classes (except for trappers, which I suppose could cause some conflict) and it would probably be a good area for the elementalist to venture into.

I'm not worried about the conflict, and I'd like to see the elementalist more capable at standing and fighting like a mesmer would. You can put together a team dependent on having players do certain things, and then you would depend on the monks for 100% of your healing and your elementalist for 100% of your area control. You just made it easy for the other team to know who to shut down. If you want area control, you run a trapper, a triple chopper, or a smiter in conjunction with characters that can control an area.

I would like to see the elementalist as the best area controller, but that shouldn't be everything that he does. I bring up mesmers because they are the only caster class that can completely destroy any other class with the right build, making them fit for getting involved in battles. There's some ideas about wanting to make some defenses/attunements unstrippable and adding stances/signets to eliminate the dependence on spell casting.

BaseKid · Sep 13, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Elementalists are a key component to many successful groups (spare IWAY, which the pressure is not just from the warriors, but the well placed traps is what often can win or lose a match for them, b/c of the lack of aoe pressure for wards, and great snares for relic runs.) I am perfectly fine with how the elementalist stands now. The AoE pressure from nuking is outstanding...even in pvp. How? it's all about timing and location. 2 fire elementalists can deal dmg to multiple targets plus kds if they know what they are doing...1 fire elementalist is a lot of pressure to more than one target. While it's true that a warrior is better for constant DPS and spiking, elementalists can deal large amounts of dmg that affect more than one target. skill selection is key...a 5 sec meteor shower is easily interupted. to fix that, bring glyph of sacrafice. sure, u lose the skill for 30 more seconds, but a well timed meteor shower with earthbind is deadly, especially if you have more than one running.

It's never fair to compare a warrior to an elementalists. Each build is designed to do different tasks, and ele heavy groups can be very effective, but so can a mix.

Voice communication is so vital in pvp...playing a good warrior isn't tab space, just like an elem isn't just spamming his skills. Location, who to target, and to communicate with your teamates that you are doing so can make everything work.

Ever been rolled or rolled a team with nuking in less than 2 min? It happens, even good teams can get rolled by well placed nukes and kds.

Now, to get on the side where this conversation has been going, elementalists are indeed fragile in many ways, including e-management.

Glyph of Energy is a great skill for tomb e-management, as it can't just be stripped by a single drain enchant.

On the other hand, enchants are sometimes your only option for e-management. take a starburst ele for example, fire attune w/channeling. put on channeling 2nd and you are less fragile to a single enchant removal.

Although, I shall mention something that will make the e-management skills not look all that bad (even though they are elites):

However, in my final words, elementalists are so dynamic that they aren't useless in any way, and in my eyes are very good at what they do. Earth provides defense and has a decent spike skill (ob flame), and shockwave, air provides spike dmg and a speed buff, really meant for gvg. Fire is massive pressure, more than a warrior could dish out, but isn't meant for a spike necessarily! Water is great for snares and some decent dmg output.

Eboon is great as opposed to eprodigy when certain situations disallow the length of prodigy (say, tranq), and is not stripped and casts faster when under NR. Second Wind can be used, but it would be better if it gave back 2 energy per exhaust rather than 1. it's use though is much mroe limited.

Nuking does not suck. Although, this thread was probably made to have a reply fued anyway (aka flaming).

In my eyes, if they did anything dramatic to an elite energy management skill of the elementalist, they would disrupt the balance of the game, and perhaps an ele would be as easy as tab space...

JR · Sep 13, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

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