Curse

Symbol · Jan 31, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Elementalists have NOT been nerfed. Can you people please check your facts before posting? With the exception of a couple of skills like ether renewal and chain lightning, elementalists have recieved buff after buff, and it still isn't enough.

Falconer · Feb 01, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Just some basic observations which I think everyone should keep in mind.

Warriors, Rangers, and Elementalists have always been something of arenanets paper/rock/scissors setup. Rangers used to be 80 + 20elemental armor... they were changed to 70 + 30elemental. Complaining that it's hard to blast a ranger with an elementalist is probably because well it was made that way! (same goes for a ranger complaining that it's hard to hurt a warrior).

Though I take some issues with ensigns numbers...
Ranger spike by itself... starts at roughly ~100... scales up to ~200 with basic buffs (OoP included) only hits the 250 level once OoV is included as well. This roughly matches up with his numbers. However, one thing many people forget... this is effectively a multi-character damage. (at least 40-100 points of that damage is actually from the NECRO(s) who hide 'safely' in the backline).
Necro 'spike'... which isn't an uncommon supplemental damage to a spike... Shadow strike, followed immediately by vamp gaze is fairly common. (vamp gaze might be slow... but it's life steal so goes right through most prot monk reactions so makes a good killing blow).
Mesmer spike, you count PP/SD. However, you allow the mesmer to use a preperatory hex which you claim would 'telegraph' the spike if it was used by an elementalist. I call foul on that one.
Elly: well there are 2 skills which take the same role as the mesmers preperatory hex PP. Though built as such... normally shatter enchant makes a great killing blow as a 3rd skill.
Incendiery bonds, and Lightning Surge. But you only ever look at *one* skill when you can hit them simultaneously with two. If PP telegraphs the spike, then so do incend bonds/lightning surge.

If you include the preparatory hex from air or fire... you can hit the target within a half second for upwards of 200 points of damage from a fire elly. If you use air, that same spike is for 250-300. So is that a weak spike? No. But as Ensign points out currectly, this is NOT sustained damage. (your best bet there is arcane echoing the fireball and using some other elite for energy management). And surge is elite... which severely limits your energy management options (which makes it HARD to work into a PvP worthy GvG elly).

Overall, I have to agree though. If you have an elementalist or two. Their job should be to provide utility. Conditions are ONLY usefull if they're reapplyable... (EG: dust trap... 5 blinds in 5s... means that twitchy condition removal fails... oath shot with throw dirt... AoE blind... needs multiple removals or elite martyr... blinding flash... 5s spammable... enervate... again reasonably spammable weakness).

Coming at this form a military mindset. People need to keep in mind the tooth to tail ratio. How much tail do you need to support a warrior train?

In an oddball kinda way... warrior train is similar to a armored division. Lot of heavy vehicles which bang things up hard in a straight up fight. Have problems with running targets which can cut into their 'DPS'.
Rangers are similar to airmobile cavalry. A lot of ability to do hit and runs.. very high mobility. Just as heavy support requirements as the armored division though slightly different.

To those who always reflexively come back... don't nerf things... make other things stronger. That's ludicrous... if ONE item out of 10 is breaking your system of 9 other working components. The first course of action to consider is fixing that item... not risking breaking the other 9. The other issue is that the power level of the game which follows that dogma is it can go nowhere but UP. Personally, I prefer a slower guild wars to a faster one with a higher power level. Because then, play and counter-play is more important than who's the best spiker.

If things become different.. how do you nerf warriors. 70+30physical armor. (they did it to rangers... warriors should get it too!). They still have the shields and in many cases an easy ignore 7 damage from every packet. That would give ellys more killing power against them. Is this the proper course... or to find some way to enhance elly's. If so, how do you enhance ellys in a NON-GAMEBREAKING manner. Keep in mind... Ellys currently are fairly well setup in PvE play. That said... it's probably too late to see any real change to warriors. So it's purely a hypothetical.

Just to state, that I don't think they can buff certain lines like fire. Here's a screeny I took a short time ago on live. Note how the AI is bunched up... note how the players are spread out clearly illustrating why this doesn't work in PvP. But that's over 2200 points damage on screen against level 28 critters in just one split second where the screenshot was taken. But I include it to demonstrate some key items... the elemenalists damage IS THERE given the right circumstances. Energy management on the elemenatlist is top notch if you know what you're doing. (down only 16 energy after casting all that).

The only realistic option I can see to make the skill line more PvP worthy is adding more utility within it and to focus more on AOE damage (even if that AOE is small... adjacent warriors are a common sight). EG: if enervate hit target and all adjacent targets... but that's a lot of weaknesses to inflict against bunched up warriors and roughly 50 points damage a piece.

Ensign · Feb 01, 2006, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

And what is your point here exactly Ensign?

Guild Wars has one defense class (Monks), one offense class (Warriors), and four utility classes that support your Warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Are you claiming for a Damage boost or a recharge time/casting cost/casting time decrease of the elementalists?

Honestly I think that the issues with the Elementalist *as a nuker* are more systematic and a couple of individual skill boosts won't solve any underlying problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I sincerely agree about the long term damage that the warriors can do. In fine, Eles will eventually run out of energy/ have recharge problemes.

No, you don't understand what I'm saying at all. If the situation was that Elementalists did a ton of frontloaded damage but eventually ran into recharge problems that kept them from being sustainable, I think they'd be fine. That's what nuking is, is it not? But the situation as it stands is not that at all. In reality, an Elementalist in full 'nuke' mode *is less effective than an autoattacking Warrior*, and then he runs out of energy or runs into recharge and he turns into total shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

But if a warrior take those, he finally fall into the elementalist syndrom you spoke of: he choose to bring utility skills instead of making damage.

Patently untrue, because a Warrior *without a single skill on his bar* is a significant threat. He can spend his skill slots on tricks, on survival, on making himself robust, and he can afford to do so because even without a damage skill he outclasses every other source of damage in the game. Sure he can take some buffs to dish out even more damage, or attack skills to spike out a target with. He probably will, in fact, because he has room on his bar for retarded skills like Eviscerate on top of all the utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

In addition, it is so easy to know who will be the "spiked target"! As warriors have to move to their target, it is easy to guess what will be their victim, whereas when you know who the Eles were targetting it's generally too late to protect him.

One thing I've learned about playing with lots of Warriors is that while you care about trickery and hiding the spike target when you're playing 321 spike or a build with but a single Warrior, you really don't care if the enemy knows who you're spiking when you have a lot of Warriors. if you shut down the prot the healing just can't keep up and you'll eventually beat all the energy out of them anyway. If they're sitting at no energy because you've beaten all the energy out of them then why do you care if they know who you're going to spike?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

[it] would be to take many Top GVG and to calculate the total average damage effectively done by a warrior Vs the average total damage effectively done by an ele.

That would be a pointless exercise, because no one bothers to try and deal damage with an Elementalist in top GvG. You see ward bitches and blinding flash bots and EProd/Heal Party spammers that throw an Orb or an Obs. Flame at whoever the Warrior is killing to assist on a spike. Basically the hypothetical character in this discussion, the damage Elementalist, does not exist in high end GvG so you couldn't even perform the test if you wanted to.

But why doesn't that character exist? Read the thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

By using such a provocative title 'Why Nuker sucks!", you can't hide behind the fact that you actually despise Eles ability to do damage.

...

That's a fact, eh?

Could we please refrain from Ad Hominem arguments, particularly ones as clueless as this? If you want to attack me, at least get your facts straight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

Watch some of the top rated guilds in Observer mode. Read the writeups of the world championship matches on guildwars.com. Top guilds win using warriors. Or we could ask someone who's in a top guild (does anyone know anyone like that?)

I can give you a nice summary of our 6-0 run to the American Championship Title.

Quarterfinals, Game 1 vs. EnS: I forget what they were running this round (sorry). We used Crippling Shot and Gale locks to hold their Monks in place while 3 Warriors beat the shit out of their backline. They routed around the 4 minute mark.

Quarterfinals, Game 2 vs. EnS: they put in a couple hexers this game, and ran something pretty similar to their normal build. We had a Domination Mesmer this time to break through their defenses as well, so we Crippled and shut down their backline with our ranged support while we beat the crap out of them with 3 Warriors. They routed around the 3 minute mark.

Semifinals, Game 1 vs. EP: They're running some weird split build based loosely on what War Machine normally runs. They send four guys around to the side of our base at the beginning, our Warriors follow them in and kill their Monk twice and some other guy once inside of 3 seconds. Crippling Shot and Gale destroys them on the retreat as our Warriors rage their backs. They auto-res at the two minute mark and come out the front gate as a full team. We Cripple their Monks, shut them down, and obliterate them with Warriors in about 50 seconds.

Semifinals, Game 2 vs. EP: They switch to a fast cast barrier spike. They get an early spike off, but by then our Warriors have beaten the energy out of them and they're forced to retreat. Again we cripple and gale them down while we rage their backs. They turtle for a bit then creep back to the flag stand, where we lock down and snare their backline again and rock their faces with Warriors. They do this one more time, and on the retreat they just can't deal with 3 Warriors beating on a character that can't run away. They start to die just after an autores timer and we finish off the Lord.

Finals, Game 1 vs. TE: The best game of the playoffs IMO. On Warrior's Isle they send their whole team around the side. We make a mistake and split 5/3 instead of 6/2, splitting up the Monks, and their Warriors destroy the 5/3 Monk that followed them in twice before the team reforms. We can't stabilize and have to retreat into the base, taking some casualties from Warriors beating on snared teammates. We stabilize in the base but can't push out with a monk with bad DP and no ressigs. Our Cripshot guy sneaks out and manages to cap the flag, though. We hold out for a bit, and our cripshot guy wins a duel with their Cripshot guy at the flagstand, securing us a morale bonus. Their team sees this happen and starts to retreat, a mistake IMO, and we rage their backs with snares and warriors. Once we're all back at the stand we lock down their Monks and obliterate them with galelocks and Warriors. They break pretty quickly, and we follow the momentum into their base and kill the guild lord before they can recover.

Finals, Game 2 vs. TE: They switch to a pretty poor build IMO, lots of degen but only one Warrior and no spike to punish us for having a bunch of low targets. We control the degen with a Heal Party / Martyr guy who hides out in the back. Their Monks have Balanced Stance to break the knocklocks, but it has a downtime and we Galelocked and obliterated their Monks with our Warriors when it was down. They break in a few minutes under all the Warrior pressure at the stand and are forced to retreat. They turtle at the lord, but with no spike power we have no deterrance from making commando strikes on their NPCs. We pick off archers and casters one at a time with Warrior pressure and adrenal spikes, and eventually they get DPed out and they break.

Important features:

Crippling Shot and Gale to control movement and give your Warriors free reign to beat on whoever they want.
Mesmer shutdown to enhance Warrior pressure.
Protbooners with good condition removal to keep Warriors healthy and clean.
Warriors rocking people's faces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

In long lasting games like GVG that matters a lot. A -60% DP warrior will deal the exact amount of damage than in the beginning. A -60% DP Ele will have energy problems.

Other way around. A -60% DP caster can be useful because he just has to slip in and fire off a couple spells to be effective. On the other hand a Warrior with DP is useless because his power comes from his ability to get up in your face in relative safety. A Warrior with lots of DP cannot play aggressively and can't be effective if he can't ge aggressive. If you can put DP on anyone, it should be the Warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burakus Lightwing

Thank you for this thread. I have found it very interesting. I am saddend by the lack of "constant damage" from the elementalist class-which I still enjoy playing. Has anyone ever thought of adding more pips of energy regen to the Elementalist?

That would just encourage people to play other classes with Elementalist primaries for the added energy regeneration, which doesn't solve the problem at all. Ele primaries do have the best energy management in the game right now, but that doesn't really matter when there's little that you want to spend it on. I mean an Elementalist can already get a pretty stable 10 pips of energy regeneration with Ether Prodigy and Glyph of Lesser Energy (which have great synergy BTW), but that isn't enough. The spells just cost too much and do too little for the most part to bother.

Energy management is a problem in this game, though, in that there isn't enough of it. Considering just how dependent all of the caster classes are on energy I think it's sad how few options are available for fixing your energy. I mean just about every Monk you see in GvG is /Necro for Offering of Blood, and it's not because Offering is some uber godly skill, but because it's the *only* good energy management option available.

But yeah, energy can be addressed via skills, but that isn't going to matter if the skills are too expensive. You don't want to set up a powerful energy engine to cast overcosted skills that you'd never use normally, you add in the energy to use the good skills that you'd want to use normally *even more*.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bugeater

So the question I see is A) does this need to be fixed? and B) what would be a viable fix?

A is actually an important question. After all Elementalists do see play as utility characters already, so it isn't like they're completely useless or something. Does the game need some alternative to melee? (and no, I don't consider 321spike to be an alternative. It's a good trick build, but as the game becomes increasingly well understood its inflexibility and general weakness are bigger and bigger liabilities.) That's not my question to answer, though obviously I consider it a problem. I just want people to actually understand what's going on, that Warrior is the dominant offensive class and everything else that goes on is a reaction to that power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Momentum

Honestly I feel that Necromancer is the momentum class. It's not a huge role and you don't need a lot of it in a lot of builds, but it's there. Elementalists really don't have momentum because they really are front loaded. They come out at their strongest (the strength of which is debatable), and they try and ride their regen. It think it's hard to argue that Elementalists get better as the game progresses and momentum would suggest, they have the large energy pool up front and most of their energy management, Prodigy excluded, revolves around making that initial pool last longer.

So yeah, momentum is a really important concept that we should get into someday. But it's not the province of a nuker in any case.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Nerf Prot Spirit.

You're insane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Certainly I would not make a build without warriors, for the deep wound is too powerful to pass up. However, in leu of additional warriors beyond the first, would it be unwise to use qs ranger(s) instead? The range, interupt, energy denial, and snare utility provided by a qs is very appealing, and there is no sense in doubling up a deep wound...

I like Rangers as a supplementary damage dealer - they hit harder than most people give them credit for - but I think their strength is in the utility, not in raw DPS. Debil Shots, interrupts, cripples, degen, it's all useful stuff and you get to put it on guy who hits like approximately 2/3 of a Warrior if he uses a Shortbow. Arrows miss, Warriors have to chase, it balances out a bit in my mind. The main problem I have with a Ranger is that they run into a lot of the same hate that a Warrior does - blocks, evades, and blind, though the cripples don't really hurt a Ranger. So you really can't exactly run them to get around hate. But they have a lot more tricks and if they get to use them they definitely pull their weight in an offensive support/supplemental role.

I'm not a big fan of Quick Shot, haven't been since the change to interrupts to give them the longer aftercast. You used to be able to set up some nice extended spikey chains with Quick Shot. Now it's kinda blah, the DPS boost isn't terribly special when spamming it, and it's elite so it keeps you from taking a strong utility elite (Hi Cripshot), and when utility is usually why you're in the build in the first place I don't think it's a strong option.

But offensive support Rangers, yeah, they're still good. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

There's a big difference between damage dealers and sustained damage dealers. I'd love you to meet and handle 4 coordinated eles with obsidian flame

...4 Obsidian Flames don't kill anything. Not even a guy with a super.

I don't see where you're going with this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

Elementalists have NOT been nerfed. Can you people please check your facts before posting?

Elementalists has the bejesus nerfed out of them early on in alpha/beta testing - some of us have been around that long. They've mostly been getting buffs since release because, well, they need them.

Peace,
-CxE

TheArrow · Feb 01, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

There's a big difference between damage dealers and sustained damage dealers. I'd love you to meet and handle 4 coordinated eles with obsidian flame, with a little warding and frozen soil in tow in pvp (and maybe a little lead stripping if a green up arrow exists). Eles may have other spike challengers but there's no issue of pointless stacking (ie hex, deep wound) so I'd argue they may be the best spiker at range, hardly substandard, with only rangers possibly exceeding (and there terrain can be an influence).

Beating spike teams is hardly difficult. Kill a spiker, disrupt the spike itself, fast casting heals like Infuse Health; all of them beat a spike. Additionally, many warrior heavy builds have the ability to split into 2 groups and force you to try and keep up with 2 sepereate battles. Spike groups have no ability to split to counter this so they end up losing out on something. Either they play the stand and try to contend with 4 members of your team while your other 4 are in their base doing some housekeeping, or they drop back into the base and try to make you come together as a full team again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

So if the focus here is how eles just dont seem to have the umph other classes do HoH/GvG I'll bite. The best weapon the ele had there was air and it received a nerf in the process. 4p teams or random I still think you're OK and I've never had a problem PvE for damage. It is true though that'd I'd also argue the other lines don't hold up in PvE (generally) as well as Fire for offense.

Chain Lightning was somewhat overpowered to be honest. Over 100 damage on up to 3 targets per Chain Lightning is a ton of damage to heal. The range was fairly large and you really had to spread way out to try and reduce the hits to only one person.

Seef II · Feb 01, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

While PvE is usually a terrible example to use to generalize to PvP, ask yourself this:

Who do you fear, the Grasps of Insanity in your backline, the Banished Dream Riders stopping your monks from healing, or the Terrorweb Dryder using a meteor shower on your necros and trapper?

As monk, I know I'm certainly ctrl+shift+spacing any popup Grasps as soon as they pass the midlines, then running far into the back. In SF, I can deal with a Stoning every 6-7 seconds, but a guy spamming cleave - and doing respectable damage between those cleaves - is a far more credible threat. I'm more afraid of the wells the binders put up than a halfhearted, dodgable attempt to try to gank the monk.

[edit] on this pve note, I'd like to mention that the damage those dryders do - ~180 on a Fireball vs. 60 AL - is pretty much what any ele these days can only dream of in pvp. :\

By the way, Ensign: I'm interested to know why you think Rangers and Necros are merely support for the warrior. Surely they really do have a bigger role in the whole scheme of things. Of course, the warrior's the primary offensive unit, but as a self-contained member of the team, the ranger can do pretty nice damage (like you said, more than people give them credit for), not just snare squishies for a ripe eviscerate.

Symbol · Feb 01, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Elementalists has the bejesus nerfed out of them early on in alpha/beta testing - some of us have been around that long. They've mostly been getting buffs since release because, well, they need them.

Balance in a game like this fluctuates so much during testing that referencing such changes is pointless IMO. Since release elementalists have gotten nothing but buffs.

However I'm curious as to what elementalists were like before? were they actually good on the offense?

Anyway I'd like to stop moaning about how much elementalists suck and start figuring out ways to change that. One idea I've been toying with is to tweak how spell damage is calculated. Currently the baseline for spell damage uses character level, so a level 20 caster has a baseline of 60 AL. But what if the baseline was calculated the same way that physical types did it, by attribute line? Currently they benefit twice from this change, not only does skill damage go up, but they get a damage boost to their base damage. You see this trend all over the place. Physical damage dealers benefit from multiplicative effects when raising attribute levels while casters don't. But there's no reason why this should be the case.

So if you have 16 in your attribute line of choice you have a baseline of (IIRC) 72, just like those warriors and rangers running around in _addition_ to the higher spell damage. I think this combined with a serious look at all those spells that cost 15 E (orb, mind burn, incendiary bonds, flame burst etc) and of course a rebalancing of the DoT AOEs, would go a long way to correcting the problem.

Another change that would help a great deal, would be the ability to position AoEs without needing a target. This is why I find PbAoEs more useful than most people, because they allow you to position yourself for maximum effect. If you could do this at range...well it would make AoE effective (fancy that!).

Goonter · Feb 01, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Mesmer spike, you count PP/SD. However, you allow the mesmer to use a preperatory hex which you claim would 'telegraph' the spike if it was used by an elementalist. I call foul on that one.
Elly: well there are 2 skills which take the same role as the mesmers preperatory hex PP. Though built as such... normally shatter enchant makes a great killing blow as a 3rd skill.
Incendiery bonds, and Lightning Surge. But you only ever look at *one* skill when you can hit them simultaneously with two. If PP telegraphs the spike, then so do incend bonds/lightning surge.

I think im the one that brought it up, but yeah, I’ll call foul with you.
Im not speaking for myself when I say eley hexes are a bad idea, Im just going the common opposition that comes when I bring them up. and that helm is evil regardless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Honestly I feel that Necromancer is the momentum class. It's not a huge role and you don't need a lot of it in a lot of builds, but it's there. Elementalists really don't have momentum because they really are front loaded. They come out at their strongest (the strength of which is debatable), and they try and ride their regen. It think it's hard to argue that Elementalists get better as the game progresses and momentum would suggest, they have the large energy pool up front and most of their energy management, Prodigy excluded, revolves around making that initial pool last longer.

So yeah, momentum is a really important concept that we should get into someday. But it's not the province of a nuker in any case.

I think your onto a new concept (or one Im not seeing) as you describe what you talking about.
By momentum I meant, the rate at which actions can be preformed.
So by that, Elementalist do have momentum but it is slow and as you describe, downhill, especially if they are trying to pump out big damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You're insane.

You’re presumptuous.
But I didn’t explain myself so,..that’s how that happen.

Prot Spirit is a great cover enchantment, but if big packet damage comes in larger intervals then maybe its perfect counter should too….or maybe it shouldnt last so long.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

So if you have 16 in your attribute line of choice you have a baseline of (IIRC) 72, just like those warriors and rangers running around in _addition_ to the higher spell damage. I think this combined with a serious look at all those spells that cost 15 E (orb, mind burn, incendiary bonds, flame burst etc) and of course a rebalancing of the DoT AOEs, would go a long way to correcting the problem.

Another change that would help a great deal, would be the ability to position AoEs without needing a target. This is why I find PbAoEs more useful than most people, because they allow you to position yourself for maximum effect. If you could do this at range...well it would make AoE effective (fancy that!).

That makes a level of sense I guess. But isn’t that like x% armor penetration on all skills pass rank 12? In which case the actually penetration can be hidden in the description of the skills capability itself. ?

Symbol · Feb 01, 2006, 04:09 AM // 04:09

Quote:

I think your onto a new concept (or one Im not seeing) as you describe what you talking about.

He's talking about momentum. The necro is a momentum class. Once you start getting kills you get energy from soul reaping. This allows you to keep doing damage. Since enemies are now weakened by DP the kills come even faster, netting you more energy, and you can in turn (provided you are limited by energy) do damage even faster. Momentum.

Ensign · Feb 01, 2006, 10:57 AM // 10:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Warriors, Rangers, and Elementalists have always been something of arenanets paper/rock/scissors setup.

Let's review the current RPS setup in Guild Wars.

Rangers beat everything in a duel. They cripple the Warriors, they interrupt the Elementalists and Necromancers, and get into interrupt and degen wars with the Mesmers.

Warriors lose to everything 1v1, except Elementalists who can't kill them because unlike the other casters Elementalists get destroyed by armor. With Monk support, a Warrior is an unstoppable killing machine which obliterates everything else.

Elementalists lose to everything except Warriors, which they can keep blind but can't actually kill. Rangers and Mesmers destroy them utterly, and Necromancers have lifesteal that makes dueling plain unfair.

Mesmers with Crippling Anguish destroy everything but Rangers and give Rangers a good fight. I don't feel that I need to explain these.

Necromancers beat Elementalists and Warriors due to lifesteals but lose to Rangers and Mesmers because those destroy casters. Nothing to see here.

Monks draw with just about everything except a precisely tuned and played Domination Mesmer or Hammer Warrior. Those lose to everything else though so draw your own conclusions.

So the RPS is a very clean heirarchy:

Rangers > Mesmers > Necromancers > Warriors ~= Elementalists

Wasn't that informative?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Ranger spike by itself... starts at roughly ~100...

You only want to count the Ranger's own damage in a fair spiking contest. If that's the case you just use RTW + Vampiric on Dual -> Punishing. That gives you a number in the ~160 range at 12 Marksmanship. Necromancer damage from Orders needs to be counted on that Necro, though the benefits of scale should not be ignored.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Necro 'spike'... which isn't an uncommon supplemental damage to a spike... Shadow strike, followed immediately by vamp gaze is fairly common.

I do not count caster followups. The second hit does not come for nearly two seconds and it might as well have never happened in a spike build. The followup can be relevant in a pressure build that can spike, but that's a completely different animal. Against a straight spike build the target should be back to near full and protted within a fraction of a second of the spike itself finishing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Mesmer spike, you count PP/SD. However, you allow the mesmer to use a preperatory hex which you claim would 'telegraph' the spike if it was used by an elementalist. I call foul on that one.

When Elementalist preperatory hexes are applied less than a second before they trigger get back to me. At it stands PP/SD telegraphs the spike by roughly .9 seconds. Lightning Surge or Incendiary Bonds need to be applied 3 seconds in advance. The difference could not be larger.

Go take a Mesmer interrupt with no Fast Casting, go into the Isle of the Nameless, find the Master of Healing, and practice hitting his Orison of Healing. How far has the bar progressed before you could respond? If you're good you'll hit it around the 3/4 mark. If you're a bit slower like I am you'll get it around when it's 90% complete. 90% complete means it takes you .9 seconds to respond with a quarter second spell. It means that if you already had the target selected and twitched Infuse *in response to the pink bar* that you'd probably be able to get the Infuse intime. If the target was not selected when you saw the pink bar he's probably dead, unless you were hitting those 3/4 Orisons. Then you'd slip in the Infuse.

Sure, it's a tell. A .9 second tell, or if you're playing it right more like a .5 second tell because the first hit of the spike is going to hit between the pinkbar and the Shatter Delusions (which is supposed to be the finisher). It can make things sloppy if you're not practiced with it. But the .9 second tell is just on the edge of human reaction time in this game. It's certainly not giving away the farm.

Now replay that but with a 3 second window to respond. Even if you aren't terribly fast you can remove the hex before it triggers. If you're fast you can remove the hex *and* pre-prot the target with a Prot Spirit before the thing can trigger. In any case getting a Prot Spirit or some other proactive defense on that target before anything triggers is beyond trivial. The target of the hex should see it coming a mile away and already be kiting when the skill triggers.

Fun fact: if you are running prependicular to the other team when the Lightning Surge triggers the followup Lightning Orb will miss almost without exception. Assuming they chain the Surge into Orb, which they always do, the Surge will trigger and knock you down .25 seconds after they release the Orb. The Orb of course was fired on a trajectory that would intercept your movement - the knockdown interrupts that movement and pulls you safely out of harms way.

Comparing the two is not even remotely reasonable. You might as well say that Lightning Strike and Chain Lightning are equally easy to interrupt. Hell, that comparison would actually be more fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

And surge is elite... which severely limits your energy management options (which makes it HARD to work into a PvP worthy GvG elly).

If Lightning Surge wasn't elite I still wouldn't run it. That's how little respect I have for that skill. In fact I'd consider the best use of that skill to be throwing it randomly before a spike to confuse the enemy. If you use it on the spiked target consistently you might as well not even bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

If things become different.. how do you nerf warriors. 70+30physical armor...That would give ellys more killing power against them.

You did not just type that. Edit your post right now. I have more respect for you than this, please do not destroy it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Keep in mind... Ellys currently are fairly well setup in PvE play.

I don't think that a gametype that is thoroughly dominated by a 55-HP prot-stacked Monk that kills with monsters obliviously bunching up and swinging through Spiteful Spirit or into Shield of Judgement holds even the slightest consideration when it comes time to talk about balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Just to state, that I don't think they can buff certain lines like fire. Here's a screeny I took a short time ago on live.

Should I go and take screenshots of the damage that 30+ level 18 Bone Fiends dish out for me on a regular basis, as though that demonstrates some sort of point that matters in the slightest?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

the elemenalists damage IS THERE given the right circumstances.

Ala, there are a dozen enemies that will happily bunch up in an orgy that would make the collision detection engine cry, and who will continue to stand there obliviously attacking an idiot holding a book, probably through an Echoed Spiteful Spirit since we're going all in on PvE analogies, while they get AoE'd to death. If that's the case, then yeah, you get screenshot-worthy damage that can and will be used to fight against game balance until the end of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Falconer

Energy management on the elemenatlist is top notch if you know what you're doing.

And your enemy doesn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheArrow

Chain Lightning was somewhat overpowered to be honest. Over 100 damage on up to 3 targets per Chain Lightning is a ton of damage to heal. The range was fairly large and you really had to spread way out to try and reduce the hits to only one person.

The strength of the skill was that it spiked three targets simultaneously - it was difficult for monks at the time to react to it. I'm not sure that the Chain Lightning of old would be considered overpowered by today's standards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

on this pve note, I'd like to mention that the damage those dryders do - ~180 on a Fireball vs. 60 AL - is pretty much what any ele these days can only dream of in pvp. :\

The effectiveness of an Elementalist's damage spells scales up much more strongly with character level than skill level - a level 28 monster deals over 50% more damage with each nuke than a PC Elementalist with the same attribute. The power curve is exponential in this game and high level elementalist mobs demonstrate this pretty clearly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

I'm interested to know why you think Rangers and Necros are merely support for the warrior.

Basically because the Warrior is the center of the entire offense and you really have to evaluate your characters in that context. Sure a Ranger deals decent damage, plus does a lot of nice tricks, including but not limited to cripple, degen, energy destruction, and interrupts. They're certainly a valuable part of the offense and carry their own weight.

But to abuse analogies, if your offense is a football team your Warrior is your quarterback. Sure you can have some star recievers or wideouts but they aren't going to be doing jack or shit if there's no one to get the ball to them. The Warrior is the same way. When you have a Ranger complimenting a Warrior, crippling targets, tossing debils and interrupts on a monk, and generally making a mess of things while the Monks are preoccupied with the Warriors in their face, he's a great character. When you have that same character without his Warrior, he feels like shit because nothing that he does seems to matter.

Same deal with a Necromancer. If he's pumping out degen and disease clouds onto a defense stressed by Warriors, those effects can overwhelm and break a backline. If Warriors aren't around, degen is worthless, there's no threat keeping the Monks honest and you just get rocked by Heal Party and other super-efficient heals. Blood spikes are a solid contribution to an adrenal spike and can push one over the edge, but on their own they're pretty worthless. Orders are really powerful skills when there are Warriors or Rangers to amplify but in a vacuum they don't do a thing.

None of this is to say that they're useless characters or anything, merely that they can't drive an offense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seef II

start figuring out ways to change that.

It's pretty simple really, the Elementalist, and to an extent the Necromancer as well, appear to be balanced upon two flawed criteria:

1) Elementalist skills should be priced along the lines of directly comparable skills from other professions in terms of energy cost, use time, and recharge. This criteria is flawed because it does not take into account the differences between classes. I feel, for example, that Eviscerate and Mind Shock are comparable spike skills. When looking at them skill for skill the two match up fairly well. The problem is the larger picture. While the Warrior is running around pressuring the other team and raging people's faces with an Axe between spikes, the Elementalist is standing around holding his dick.

2) Elementalist skills should have a comparable potency to what other skills do in a vacuum. This is flawed because while other professions can buff up their attacks and combine their skills effectively, the Elementalist's spells are universally 'what you see is what you get'. A Lightning Orb will always be a Lightning Orb, there's nothing you can do to modify it, it'll hit for 140 every time - on the other hand a Dual Shot is a buff multiplying MACHINE, and an individual hit lands for 60, no 85, no 110, no 145, ad nauseum until you get tired of finding things to stack onto it.

In general there needs to be some recognition that different professions behave in different manners, have different needs, and their skills are not directly comparable. An Elementalist who is not casting is a useless Elementalist. The energy costs of his skills, their casting times, and their recharges need to reflect this, and they need to dish out effects that are worthy of those costs.

I think it's really that simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

I think your onto a new concept (or one Im not seeing) as you describe what you talking about.

As gaming terminology, momentum is basically 'building momentum', shorthand for effects that build in power as the game progresses. It's basically the opposite of a frontloaded character. A minion master is the most obvious example - he starts out with dead skills on his bar, but as more deaths occur he gains minions and picks up momentum until, at some point, he's the most dangerous character on the field (this is particularly obvious in PvE). Soul Reaping works on a similar principle. It's significant in less obvious places as well, such as with disease - an early disease cloud really doesn't do much more than annoy people, but once your Warriors have beaten the energy out of the other team a single cloud can be backbreaking.

At least thematically I see that as being the biggest difference between the Elementalist and the Necromancer, the former being frontloaded and the latter backloaded. How well they perform in their thematic role is subject for debate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goonter

Prot Spirit is a great cover enchantment, but if big packet damage comes in larger intervals then maybe its perfect counter should too….or maybe it shouldnt last so long.

Protective Spirit is a great anti-stupid spell. It's expensive though and not something that can be spammed around. It also has the most obvious animation in the entire game making it impossible to miss. If you're playing a character that would get rocked by Prot Spirit, change targets aggressively, it's impossible for a Prot Monk to keep up on energy. The duration is decent but nothing to get excited about.

I don't know of anyone who uses Prot Spirit as a cover enchant, it's way too expensive and short lived to be used like that. It's only really useful in an emergency because of the cost. Honestly though I don't even see Protective Spirit on bars much these days, it just doesn't pull enough weight to be worth a slot. Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not, but I really have no clue where you're coming from.

Peace,
-CxE

Auturgist · Feb 01, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

I just read through most of this thread; honestly, I couldn't bear to read each individual post. But if you read nothing but Ensign's posts and actually consider everything he has said, especially after having watched, or even better, played in some GvG involving skilled warriors, you can really see the validity of his points and learn from them. I mean to say that if you have witnessed that kind of play, either by observing GvG matches between skilled guilds or participating in them, Ensign is putting into words the kind of thoughts you probably had lingering subconsciously about the strength of warriors.

I recently started playing my warrior in a way that has made me see her in a new light. As a sword warrior using Galrath Slash and Final Thrust for spiking, I've started dishing out damage that is simply astounding compared to that of my previous warrior builds (which sucked because they were inadvertently trying to be more supportive than damage-dealing) or other characters. [I don't have Evicerate because I went the way of the sword in PvE... I will cap it soon, though!]

That said, between the things I've learned reading Ensign's posts and my own new experiences playing a warrior designed to deal real damage through constant pressure with great spiking skills, I am confident that I have much greater insight into how to design a build that will succeed in the current PvP environment.

Thanks, Ensign, for sharing your knowledge with those of us capable and willing to learn from it!

Goonter · Feb 01, 2006, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I don't know of anyone who uses Prot Spirit as a cover enchant, it's way too expensive and short lived to be used like that. It's only really useful in an emergency because of the cost. Honestly though I don't even see Protective Spirit on bars much these days, it just doesn't pull enough weight to be worth a slot. Maybe you're seeing something that I'm not, but I really have no clue where you're coming from.

It last for 20 secs (roughly) and recharges in 5. It can be keep up after its been removed.
Its costly... builds that go something like, glyph of renewal, divine spirit with high ranks in divine favor will make prot spirit spam easy to do with the right kind of team.
Imo, its got the best potentual for target other ally cover enchantment.
No one uses prot spirit as a cover enchantment to my knowledge. But its potentual is there.
And because ...big packet damage is rarer and rarer, there is no reason for prot spirit to be used now-in-days.
Its probably not wise to build a monk like that now because the way the battles are taking place currently.
But lets say, suddenly, big damage elementist are buffed and are the in thing.
A great counter skill is there and waiting to be spammed.
In its current state, it should discourge long build up, big damage significantly.

Hado · Feb 01, 2006, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Holy crap, welcome to Nov 2004! I'm surprised it's taken over a year for this topic to come up, and people are just starting to realize just how shitty Elementalists (and Necros) are for anything but a select few utility skills.

Back in E34E Ele's were actually a viable class for killing. Literally every skill had lower recharge, lower energy costs, and higher damage. Dropping some of the opponent's front line quickly was actually a feasible tactic, which is what made spamming PS and quick monking so important.

After E3, Anet went a bit trigger happy and overbalanced the game towards the defensive side, making high-level games all about long, drawn out fights with Warriors for sustained damage, heavy armor, mass damage reducing skills and cover enchants, and healing sig spam. They did this by nerfing Ele's to oblivion by halving damage (factoring in better armor), increasing recharge and cast times for nearly all the damage skills, tacking exhaustion on all the ticking AOE's except firestorm. I remember coming up against War Machine multiple times (they're basically running the same build they've had since Fall 2004), and the freshly nerfed Ele's not being able to punch through Warrior armor even when faced with focus fire from 5 people on the team and AOE's dropping on their head.. it just wasn't viable to run damage Ele's in sustained fights due to exhaustion, energy issues, crap damage and high recharge rates. Pretty much the only reason to run them was for utility (mass snare, blurred vision, wards) as it seems like the case is now.

Now if only someone would start posting about how crappy Necros are for their designed role (as debuffers/damage and not just utility) in the metagame. Let's face it.. skills like Death Nova, Barbs, Rend Enchants, Chillblains, Weaken Armor and Rigor Mortis have absurd costs/recharge times/ridiculously low damage, and are in dire need of an overhaul.

CKaz · Feb 01, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

...4 Obsidian Flames don't kill anything. Not even a guy with a super.
I don't see where you're going with this.

Ranged single shot spike that takes out a player in one co-ordinated volley. I don't mention it for 8v8 as yeah even with an extra ele (or 2, 5-6 spike), with monks/utility/aid rounding out the group sustain is the issue.

And sorry I didnt get into the build particulars but glyph of ele power for the extra oomph all lead with, so four eles shoot out 18 earth obsidiains, which should kill with a super and I'd have to re-verify but possibly w/o a super (-75) making a dip. Why not, obsidian is only 5 energy and you're going to get an exhaust hit anyways. Follow with immediate stones I guess if there's still movement

Obviously buffs can mitigate so lead strips as needed would be part of the routinue. And I'm more a fan of balanced team myself but it can work OK, and can work more as a surprise in HoH and GvG built right. But once again the sustain is the weakness and why I dont suggest it and agree with your argument at the core.

And that's part of the problem with front loaded damage there arent a lot of options, we have another post suggesting chain lighting was overpowered as it was. But that was an example of ele frontloaded power and why you might have worried about them when they first came out the gate. It exhausted, it had a 20 second recharge, it was a real weapon of the pvp air ele. And now it takes an extra second and less damage - another chink in the frontload and DPS, while getting the option to cast it (with exhaust) more often.

So at least in pvp they dont frontload particularly hard (and people object when and where they can) and dont sustain, yeah. I dont think it'd require a major re-work but some work, and just like teams have to be prepared to handle different team assaults and particularly the warriors, would it be a bad thing to have concerns and have to work at counters for what the eles might do? Nice use of Gale, is almost amusing to note the warrior uses the /ele better in GvG/HoH arguably better than the ele/ itself (for offense anyways). One might suggest 4v4 teams or random too but I usually can use my ele pretty well there.

Oh well, good thread either way, certainly it felt warriors (and the monk lynch pins with surrounding support) have ruled the roost a long time, obviously you have the experience to back it up. Actually its almost eerily familiar to AO and the nanotech, where auto-attacking gunners simply only continued to further outshine the nanotech 'burners' levelling up, where eventually the nanotech's limitations burnt me out.

Increasing cast time (can become only a lead shot PvE and often doesnt work at all PvP), recharge (so more of your bar to keep attacks/dps going) and energy cost (without appreciable increase in regen) - warrior fodder. Enter utility- and the dance you're doing to stay alive rather than deal damage

Phades · Feb 02, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

And sorry I didnt get into the build particulars but glyph of ele power for the extra oomph all lead with, so four eles shoot out 18 earth obsidiains, which should kill with a super and I'd have to re-verify but possibly w/o a super (-75) making a dip. Why not, obsidian is only 5 energy and you're going to get an exhaust hit anyways.

Good, telegraph that your spike is comming even more by wasting an additional second powering up the glyph before every cast. Just more time wasted for the opponent to react. Hell with the new professions, wasting that extra time will allow for a ritualist to plant a shelter before your spells land. Never mind any team that was remotely worried about that style of a spike and didnt bring an interupt method or prot spirit and just went with fertile season instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

Obviously buffs can mitigate so lead strips as needed would be part of the routinue. And I'm more a fan of balanced team myself but it can work OK, and can work more as a surprise in HoH and GvG built right. But once again the sustain is the weakness and why I dont suggest it and agree with your argument at the core.

So, who exactly is doing the multi-layer stripping before you spike lands, if 4 of your characters are powering up with a glyph before hand in a "balanced team". You have 1-2 spots left for what will be up to 6 different professions remaining. What you have is a spike team with no depth using that much weight in just 16 spec earth eles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CKaz

So at least in pvp they dont frontload particularly hard (and people object when and where they can) and dont sustain, yeah. I dont think it'd require a major re-work but some work, and just like teams have to be prepared to handle different team assaults and particularly the warriors, would it be a bad thing to have concerns and have to work at counters for what the eles might do? Nice use of Gale, is almost amusing to note the warrior uses the /ele better in GvG/HoH arguably better than the ele/ itself (for offense anyways).

Eles need to do something distinct in order to be used in one manner or another. The ward utility guy is distinct. If they are to be just a raw and outright nuker, they would have to outperform the basic ranger spike(that has interupt elements/is not just damage) by a fairly noticable margin due to the inherent drawbacks that spell casting posesses by comparison. You are talking spells that borderline one shot characters in one spell with no outside aid, given the current elementalist mechanics. Barring that, the game would have to see a large round of nerfs everywhere it try and bring everyone down damage wise, and consequently healing wise, to the elementalist level. This would invariably have the baseline be roughly wand level damage sustained. At which point it would be rather pointless to have rangers and warrirors.

Phades · Feb 02, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

1) glyph of elemental power + the pop from lightning orb hits 156 fixed on 60 AL armor. mindshock hits 154 total. at 16 str and 15 axe, critical hit is 72 and eviscerate goes +40 on 60 AL armor. do . adding it should give 112 maxed (ideal).

First off calculate at AL 51 for the axe hit and add the deep wound damage. Then you can go on to add fun things like orders, IAS, and others to further increase the damage delivered via warrior eviserate. While elementalist means will only ever do what the listed restrictions say it will do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

2) yea. but he can do damage, snare, kite, do dmg kite, snare do damage. etc and the warrior will just spend time chasing him.

Ice does not do impressive damage with the snares up front, nor is it sustained damage. The smart warrior will also change targets opposed to chase someone attempting to kite him. If you are trying to do damage while performing a knockdown lock, have fun waiting on exhaustion to wear off for serveral minutes afterwards. If you killed the target or not is irrelevant, as the character is effectivly dead for far longer than it takes to use a res sig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

3) also true. but with mantras (resolve/concentration) youll be sure that the ele dmg (non projectile) will hit and projectile 50% will hit (with exception of certain spell halts/edenial from the mesmer). warriors encounter direct gimps. weakness (omg reduces dmg a lot), cripple (omg i cannot hit him i must fly), blindness (1% will hit nooo), wards, omg the almighty necro curses and ele water magic

1 power block or blackout completely stops an elementalist. The only comparable effect is pacifism for physical attacks and that is removable. You can also look at things like diversion, which can easily be applied via fast casting against the painfully slow elementalist skills in most instances. 1 lightning orb or obsidian flame per 40s i think any team can deal with. Weakness does not affect the bonus damage from attack skills. Blindness is 90%, not 99%. Migraine, conodrum, and concussion hurt an ele far worse than faintheartedness hurts a warrior. If a interupting ranger is humping your leg as an ele, it is just as effective as other forms of energy denial as well. I think you need to analyze how much hate you are leveling at the warrior in order to stop it, opposed to the one or two things it takes to really take the wind out of the sails for an elementalist focused on sustained casting for damage up front and pressure over time.

glountz · Feb 02, 2006, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The baseline for pressure in this discussion is a warrior who does nothing other than autoattack a caster. With an unmodded max weapon and 16 attribute, he'll dish out the following amounts of damage:

Sword: 34.12 damage per hit, 25.59 damage per second, 1536 damage per minute; 38.39 damage per second, 2303 damage per minute while under Frenzy
Axe: 35.55 damage per hit, 26.66 damage per second, 1600 damage per minute; 40 damage per second, 2400 damage per minute while under Frenzy
Hammer: 51.36 damage per hit, 29.35 damage per second, 1761 damage per minute; 44.02 damage per second, 2641 damage per minute while under Frenzy

How did you calculate this? Is it theoretical calculations or is it empirical?
Did you create a PvP warrior and hit a 60 AL dummy during 1 minute or did you caculate it from Damage formulaes?
What is the method used ?

Sentinel · Feb 02, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

How did you calculate this? Is it theoretical calculations or is it empirical?
Did you create a PvP warrior and hit a 60 AL dummy during 1 minute or did you caculate it from Damage formulaes?
What is the method used ?

A "Must Read" : http://www.guildwarsguru.com/content...nics-id674.php

Tools of the trade:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/calcula...uru_weapon.php

Sent.-

FrogDevourer · Feb 02, 2006, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

How did you calculate this? Is it theoretical calculations or is it empirical?
Did you create a PvP warrior and hit a 60 AL dummy during 1 minute or did you caculate it from Damage formulaes?
What is the method used ?

You do realize you're making a fool of yourself, right?

EDIT: I guess many newcomers may actually not realize what I mean.
Read this article, note the author's name, and the release date (yes, it's more than one year old and still accurate).

glountz · Feb 02, 2006, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrogDevourer

You do realize you're making a fool of yourself, right?

EDIT: I guess many newcomers may actually not realize what I mean.
Read this article, note the author's name, and the release date (yes, it's more than one year old and still accurate).

Yes, I DID know this thread, and my question was far from noobish. I wanted to know if used this formulaes or if really got his damage number after training on dummy. I didn't mean if I KNEW how damage is calculated. Thanks.
Theory and reality doesn't fit each other.
Using mathematical formulaes to calculate DPS and actually test it on field on a dummy (especially when random things like critical strikes can change expected results) is different.
If Ensign used only maths to calculate its damage output, then it's more inaccurate because he probably uses a mean base damage and calculate damage output through his formula. Without testing the effect of randomness in an "on-field" test with numerous tries and statistical approach.
That's all.

Bugeater · Feb 02, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

As a very minor correction, a warrior doesn't actually deal the highest sustainable DPS in the game. An Orders necro on a warrior heavy team will blow any single warrior's DPS right out of the water. But that's getting more into team makeup than a single class's ability and doesn't change the fact that you need warriors to deal damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

If Ensign used only maths to calculate its damage output, then it's more inaccurate because he probably uses a mean base damage and calculate damage output through his formula. Without testing the effect of randomness in an "on-field" test with numerous tries and statistical approach.

When we're talking about DPS we're talking about average DPS. It would be meaningless to talk about any give strike of an axe that does between 6 and 28 points of damage. It would be equally meaningless to talk about DPS in terms of ranges (my axe does 7.14 to 25.08 DPS depending on if I'm doing all min damages or all max damages)

You can use a formula and be completely accurate as long as the formula is right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Theory and reality doesn't fit each other.

They do when the theory is sound and you realize that the reality you're witnessing is an instant, not an average.