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Jan 30, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28
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#21 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hawaii
Guild: ----- 15^50[Rare] ---- Alliance: ----- [SMS] -----
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Vox Populi
I think you're missing the OPs point. Look at the title...he wants to be able to use "nukers"..."damage dealing" Eles. I'm guessing...perhaps infering too much...that he feels that Eles were made to appear to be able to do something they cannot...or perhaps it is simply a assumption/desire based on how Ele's function in other games/media. What you said in your second major paragraph has been stated ...aside from the range point but that is implied by Ele Spiking I would think.....and I dobt he would argue with it. Again your last paragraph while more spelled out is again implied by Ele Spiking...but the OP makes a somewhat clear distinction between "spiking" and "damage dealing" if not i think Vermilion Okeanos sumerizes it very nicely Last edited by Manic Smile; Jan 30, 2006 at 06:33 AM // 06:33.. |
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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Arcane Echo -> Lightning Orb -> Echoed Orb -> Strike -> Orb -> Echo Orb -> Strike -> Orb -> Echo Orb -> Strike -> Orb. The whole sequence, riding recharges, will deal 1190 damage over 28.75 seconds for a blazing 41.39 DPS. I don't think you even want to look at the energy requirements. Then you're stuck with downtime. Have fun. Quote:
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What if is a fun but pointless game, don't you think? Quote:
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Individually, a Warrior is the strongest single target spiker. He has the single deadliest individual attack, Eviscerate, which hits for an average in the 80s, a critical upwards of 112, plus a Deep Wound that counts for roughly one hundred damage. That's a 180-210 damage single attack with a minimal use time, for those keeping track. We'll conveniently ignore that a Warrior can follow that hit up in less than a second with another attack in the 80s, unlike a caster who has to wait 1.75 seconds before their next attack can land. The second strongest individual spiker is the Mesmer. Phantom Pain -> Shatter Delusions is the strongest ranged spike in the game again due to the broken Deep Wound mechanic, but even ignoring that Shatter Enchantment is a top notch spike skill that both hits for 106 unerring, armor ignoring damage and removes what it likely a defensive enchantment. Eles are a distant third with Obsidian Flame, which is 118 unerring damage with an unappealing cast time but a very appealing recharge (though it's hard to really make use of due to exhaustion limitations). It's the best 'stackable' spike skill, but the damage really isn't anything special (5x Obsidian Flames = 590 damage = exactly enough to kill someone prepared to defend against spike). The other servicable option is Lightning Orb, which hits casters for 140 (doesn't ignore armor), though it has all the problems of a projectile attack. It's an ok option for a spike skill if you have reasons for that guy to be in Air already, but if you don't just use Obsidian Flame. Rangers are the standard for a spike build for a reason - buff stacking. A single Dual->Punishing Ranger spiker with Orders up hits for roughly 250 damage in half a second. It does take some buffing to get that, but for that kind of punishment who cares? Quote:
If you have an argument to make, please make it. Vague statements like the above contribute nothing whatsoever to any argument. Quote:
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Let me spell this out as plainly as possible. Elementalists are not artillery. You might think they are from looking at the character and skill descriptions, or get that impression by looking at comparable characters in other games. But they don't do what you think they do. They do not deal 'massive damage' at range, no matter how many times people say they do. The numbers are exactly the same for all of us and you can go into the new Isle of the Nameless and see for yourself if you don't believe anyone for whatever reason. Elementalists deal average damage at range for obscene energy costs and cast times. Quote:
In instantaneous timeframes, Warriors deal more damage than *any* Elementalist skill due to Deep Wound. A large fraction of the raw damage ignores armor, as well. In short, non-instantaneous timeframes, the Warrior similarly outperforms the Elementalist in all facets, because his attacks are 4/3rd seconds apart, 8/9ths apart if you use a speed boost, while the fastest followup available to an Elementalist is 1.75 seconds later. The followup from the Elementalist is similarly weaker than the followup from a Warrior, simply because the 'big hits' from a Warrior do not have cast times, only reuse timers, while Elementalist spells have cast times to worry about as well. A Warrior can hit Eviscerate -> Executioner's -> Penetrating in the time it takes an Elementalist to cast that followup Lightning Strike. If you are willing to throw out the 2 second cast time of Lightning Orb (which I am, if you're willing to give a Warrior two seconds to get to his spike target), then you're looking at 228 damage from a Warrior, plus Deep Wound, in 1.77- seconds compared to 210 damage from an Air Elementalist in 1.75 seconds. If you factor in the virtual Deep Wound damage, which you should because that Deep Wound does kill people, then the Axe guy dealt ~340 damage in the same extended spike. Quote:
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But your point is well taken. An attacker can chain some quick attacks together to make a huge spike out of several smaller (or larger, as the case may be) attacks. A caster on the other hand is limited to one spell spikes, because his cast times and particularly the aftercast keep him from following up in a timely fashion. Hence it should be obvious why Rangers are the spikers of choice - they operate at range, they can be buffed unlike casters, and they can chain quick attacks together to hit someone with multiple strikes before anyone can respond. Is a 140 damage Lightning Orb, goofy trajectory and all, really all that scary when that's around? Peace, -CxE
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Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44
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#23 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Also, didn't one of the updates add an aftercast equivalent to the ranger's interrupt skills? Last edited by Symbol; Jan 30, 2006 at 08:37 AM // 08:37.. |
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56
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#24 | |
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Did I hear 7 heroes?
Join Date: May 2005
Guild: Scars Meadows [SMS], Guild Leader (Not Recruiting)
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Jan 30, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48
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#25 | |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: Xen of Onslaught Ladder [XoO]
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Against a 100AL warrior target the obsidian will win most of the time, with the average dual shot doing 26 damage, and 100 with orders and the vamp bow. Though again, if both arrows hit critical, you'd do 116 damage, almost the level of an obs flame. This is all at 12 marksmanship, if you do 16 (as you probably should when comparing to obsidian flame) I think it does something like 15% more damage than these numbers, and higher critical % (I've been using 20% chance for figures). |
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Jan 30, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01
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#26 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
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I forgot about dual orders. Wow. It's pretty ridiculous that one character can more than double the damage output of a whole team.
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39
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#27 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: US
Profession: R/Mo
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Heh, and I knew it was wise to delete my ele. Something just didn't feel right at all when I went through pve with him. Subpar damage, squishy, terrible energy management ('til elites)... yeah, it wasn't just me. I had more fun playing water in pve than fire to tell the truth. :\ The most fun I had with an ele in pvp was abusing that thunderclap bug with a shortbow. That's saying not much of the supposed "nuker" class. Just the wrong style.
It's definitely worse in pvp. You've got prot going around, smarter enemy healers, and more interrupt/shutdown. There's really no way an ele can really put continuous pressure on without putting himself into way negative energy. But if you're just reducing them to "ward bitches", as Ensign so puts it, the elementalists' so-called nuking function is gone. On anet's stance of multi-line eles... I'm not sure they realize that to do any real damage an ele pretty much needs 16 in his line (barring water and maybe earth as well, depending if you're ob spiking or being a ward ho). Now that means a 12+4, 10+1, 8+1 (or 12, 11, 6) spread, and if ele emanagement is as bad as it is (spamming water trident and shard storm even with an attune up? geez) there's not much wiggle room at all. Except mesmers, whose primary attribute can be debated in another topic, the casters (and rangers) generally have passive energy management via their primary attribute. Mesmers, of course, run emanagement actively with Inspiration or their secondary. That, combined with the basic energy regen of each profession, pretty much dictate the costs, recharges, and activation times of each class's skills. Basically, it seems like Anet says "hey, eles can have 100 energy, let's just make most of their spells worth using cost 10, 15, 25 and have their management be enchant-based! Oh and there's this exhaustion thing too." You can see this with rangers v. warriors: the former's skills take more energy to activate (10 v. 5 energy for power shot/attack, whirling v. gladiator's, and so on) but any good ranger worth his salt will have 12+ in expertise. In fact, eles seem to be the only class that requires at least a good amount of points in their primary attribute to reach even a minimum level of battlefield-readiness. Yes, monks can do without DF if they're smiting, for example, but hey, eles did it better back in the day because of their four gazillion energy. Multi-line, all right, coming to you last summer. Last edited by Seef II; Jan 30, 2006 at 07:41 PM // 19:41.. |
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Jan 30, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48
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#28 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Yeah, I know this thread is about PvP, but the problem is not just limited to PvP. I've been going through the latter with my blood nuker, and he kills high level enemies much faster than my ele ever did (though to be fair, it kills faster than 95% of the builds out there, warriors included). And he's not reliant on enchants for energy management. I've also had much more success with this character in the arenas than I ever did with my ele. And I've tried pretty much every high dps air, fire, or earth build I could think of.
Armor ignoring damage is no joke! Now AoE is no longer reliable in PvE or PvP the ele's problems are coming to the forefront. Quote:
Last edited by Symbol; Jan 30, 2006 at 07:51 PM // 19:51.. |
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Jan 30, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20
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#29 | ||
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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At 12 attribute, Dual->Savage kicks out 137 damage with just Read the Wind. Dual-> Punishing would do 155. If you went to 16 attribute for whatever reason those numbers would be 159 and 180, respectively. An Order from a Necro primary adds 51 damage per Ranger, from a Necro secondary you get +39 per Ranger. A 12 marks Dual Shot shot pumped up with Orders and RTW will kick out 153 damage in a single strike, 96 of it armor ignoring. The follow-up Punishing Shot averages 104. Not that I'm going to dump on Obsidian Flame, I like the skill. It has a lot of good properties, from being instant hit to ignoring armor and just about all defenses in general. I think it's solid all things considered, good enough to be a selling point of the earth line. Impressive though? I can't go that far, not when it doesn't even hit half as hard as a Ranger does in a spike. Quote:
So yeah, there's a problem with Elementalist skills that are being costed for that max energy pool when they should really be priced for the much more relevant 4 pips of energy regeneration. Necromancers get hammered by this as well because there's some expectation that soul reaping can fix your energy, while in reality you'd have to be insane to rely upon that for your emanagement. Peace, -CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
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Jan 30, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53
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#30 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Jun 2005
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The channeling line has ways of energy recovery and damage augmentation through spirit use or holding an item. If a similar logic were to follow elementalists, then not only should there be spells that compare maximum energy pools which is a defining trait for elementalists, there should also be skills that amplify damage and energy recovery if there are more than one elementalist involved or if the elementalist in question has exhaustion. Currently there is energy recovery in exchange for exhaustion in the form of ether prodigy, but there is nothing in the way of buy back energy through a single skill use similar to say essence strike. All of the energy recovery is split up into many different skill positions and they only perfom one function, instead of multi tasking like essense strike does. Another option would be for damage augmentation from having exhaustion. For example a spell could measure the amount of exhaustion and amplify the damage based on how much exhaustion currently exists on the character in question. To take it a step further, it could either add more exhaustion from use further amplifying the damage, but limiting the use of skills in general or it could remove existing exhaustion to prevent an over the top spike generated in many packets from several users. If the latter was used, it would add flexablilty in skill choices compared to what exists currently. Other options include amplifying/adding damage/energy recovery based on other nearby elementalists or create wards for each skill line that function as means to augment as well. They could also be generic and mimic some glyph effects and be linked under the energy storage attribute. Some people might mention glyphs, but they are severly limited in power and capability even when compared against other profession options of similar use. Most of them are not even good enough to take a spot on the skill bar, never mind actually spend energy on or waste time in use of preperation. Last edited by Phades; Jan 30, 2006 at 11:55 PM // 23:55.. |
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Jan 31, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36
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#31 | |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
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a) aftercast prevents follow ups for and b) there are no buffs for spell damage. |
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Jan 31, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58
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#32 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Is there a bug with Deep Wound that keeps the damage on even after Deep Wound is removed?
Because it's a tad unfair that Deep Wound is part of a godly spike, but blind will get removed instantly... |
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Jan 31, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13
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#33 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Personally I feel this thread is starting to rot...
Also, the reason deep wound is so great for spiking is not because it can be remove or w/e, it is because it take out 20% of the buffer range for the target to survive. For example, it only take one shot to spike a 100 hp target to death, but it would require 2 shots with 200 hp. The deep wound effect does exactly what a spike want, making the target have lower hp for the moment of the spike. If the spike is unsucessful, the deep wound effect doesnt really matter; all or nothing. Obsidian flame is not impressive at all, just another single target damage dealing spell. The only reason you can at least see it a bit impressive is the fact... IT IS THE ONE OF THE ONLY FEW ELEMENTALIST SKILL THAT IS DECENT! >_< ( I still love my ele, i dont care...) Last edited by Vermilion Okeanos; Jan 31, 2006 at 01:15 AM // 01:15.. |
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Jan 31, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24
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#34 | |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: Servants of Fortuna
Profession: E/Me
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Jan 31, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48
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#35 | ||
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Just Plain Fluffy
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Berkeley, CA
Guild: Idiot Savants
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You have to do the same thing when talking about what different classes can be expected to do. Sure it might seem unfair to compare a single Obsidian Flame to a buffed Ranger, but is it really unfair to do so? Elementalists *cannot* be buffed. It's a huge disadvantage of the class that you can't ignore. Should you be comparing the damage an unbuffable Elementalist can dish out to what a buff-friendly class can dish out without his buffs? Is that really an honest comparison of the two classes? Honestly I feel that a comparison between Obsidian Flame and an unbuffed Dual Shot (a skill that is, bluntly, a buff multiplier) in a vacuum is a pointless exercise. You're not only removing any context about how those skills are actually used, but why what they can do would be useful in the first place. I mean a statement like "Obsidian Flame spike is better than Ranger spike because Obsidian Flame hits harder than Dual Shot in a vacuum" is retarded on so many levels that it's downright comical. If there's no useful information in a comparison why even make it? Quote:
Or to really drive it home, no one is about to call Cleave impressive just because it's the best elite for a DPS Warrior. You can be good at what you do...but what you do has to be important in a wider view of the game. Peace, -CxE
__________________
Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience. |
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Jan 31, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43
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#36 |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Aug 2005
Guild: [KoA] Knights of the Alliance
Profession: Me/
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A lot of people seem to be missing the point here. Heck, maybe I am to, but as I see it Ensign was trying to show that choosing an elementalist for damage was not the best choice you could make. He was not saying that the elementalist class was useless, or that you would never want one on your team, rather he was showing that if you need a damage dealer, you would be much better off choosing a warrior.
Lets say you are working on a build, and need a damage dealer. You want to use either an elementalist or a warrior, for some odd reason that I will leave up to you. While the elementalist is great at landing large single hits, he cannot follow up those hits quickly, nor can he cause a deep wound, nor can he maintain a high dps for very long with even the slightest disruption. By contrast, a warrior can spike with a deep wound (causing more total loss in overall health with one attack than an elementalist with one skill), can follow up the spike with quick attacks, and can maintain a good dps. Blind a warrior and it gets removed. Strip an attunement and an elementalist runs out of energy, nothing he can do but slow down his casting, and therefore lower his dps. The obvious choice here is to take the warrior. That is not to say an elementalist cannot be effective, but he is not as effective as a warrior is in overall damage dealt. You won't find a warrior running around spamming heal party or dropping wards, but you very well could find an elementalist doing this, more effectivly than a warrior ever could. You just don't want to place your damage in the form of an elementalist because you will not be as effective as the warrior. As to spiking, ele spike can be strong, but why do you think everyone who wants to spike runs ranger spike now, rather than air spike? Earth spike can kill just about any target, this is true, but ranger spike does that better also. No, even just by watching what everyone is running, it should start to be obvious that right now, damage elementalists don't fit in builds. This will probably not change without the introduction of new skills or the changing of current skills, so for now, grab that hammer. |
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Jan 31, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12
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#37 | |||
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Aug 2005
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But I do think it's important to distinguish between self-buffs and buffs by other teammembers, because the latter opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to evaluating a skill's usefulness. It's one thing to say, "how useful is this skill when I need to devote one or two other slots on my bar to supporting it" and another to say "how useful is this skill when I have to devote another _person_ to supporting it". Now I have a feeling that you're going to say, "GW is a team oriented game so you can't evaluate a skill's usefulness outside the context of a team build". And there's a lot of truth to that. But then to be consistent you have to admit that pretty much every skill outside of the ones used in the current FoTM in high level PvP (and I'm certainly not denying that they're likely to be the most efficient so far) is going to fall short. I'm not willing to go that far. YMMV. Quote:
My problem with your position is that there's no middle ground. Either a spike skill is the best when a team bases their entire spike strategy around it or it's pointless. IMO I think a lot of a skill's usefulness comes from being bring value to a lot of different builds (both individual and team). That's why I think obs flame is impressive for what it is. Last edited by Symbol; Jan 31, 2006 at 05:58 AM // 05:58.. |
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Jan 31, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34
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#38 | |||
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Northwest Ascalon
Guild: Freedom
Profession: N/R
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You do realise that dispite the fact you didn't use the words "what if", you were also playing the what if game, right? What if my Warrior can get to you instantly? What if my Mesmer charges into spell range of your casters? What if I can remove hexes/conditions as fast as you can pile them on? What if your Elementalist has no one backing him up while I get condition/hex removal? You simply state these things as though they will certainly happen, but at the same time deny your enemy the same opportunity, while what I was suggesting happens in >66% of the battles you'd care to witness. I'd say that's at least equally useless. At a certain point, we have to recognize that the metrics we use for one class (apples) don't apply equally to others (oranges). At a certain point, we have to work things out on the battlefield, and even with two such established classes, I don't think that's done yet. You and I have both been in this game for some time; how many battles have you seen that were hurt by having a 'Damage Elementalist' that would have been saved by having a Warrior instead? We've seen the battlefield change over the course of the last year (or so) and the balance has indeed shifted. Are you prepared to say that it is done shifting? ...That mathematics (not the guild by a long shot) has finally taken its glorious reign, and things are as they were meant to be? Quote:
Look, I'm not saying that an Elementalist is better than a Warrior, far from it. What I am saying is that you seem to be relegating E's to a tiny niche with about 10 good skills (tops), and I think that's harsh and unfair. There is some value in this game in doing what's unexpected, because that means unprepared for. As regards 'Spike' and 'Deep Wound', this will shock no one, but it doesn't stack. Three Elementalists with O.F. do the full damage of the skill x 3. Three Warriors with Dismember do just 1 Deep Wound -- and it gets removed as easily as any other condition, so unless it's the last damage to a player, it is very virtual indeed. Rangers and their spike potential is a whole 'nother thread. And since I play 3 Ranger or /Rangers, I'm far more likely to vote on that side of things. 
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Jan 31, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03
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#39 |
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Site Contributor
Join Date: May 2005
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This is unfortunately a very true story. The odd time that I play an "offensive" air elementalist, what do I find myself running? orb, strike, and a list of utility + energy management spells.
Who dishes out the damage? The warrior, of course. The mesmers and necros are there to soften up the enemy for the warrior to tear apart, and occasionally to try and stop the enemy warriors. The ele is there to aid the warrior in delivering that killing blow, the ranger is there to screw with the enemy and make them easier targets for the warrior. The monk is there to save his team from the enemy warrior and to pray to god that a loaded warrior doesn't get within 5 feet of him. But ultimately, it's always the warrior that's running around deciding who lives and who dies. There are obvious exceptions (ranger spike, obsidian spike, some other gimmick spike), but in most builds you'll find the above to hold true. |
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Jan 31, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40
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#40 |
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Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Sep 2005
Profession: N/Me
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From what I read he thinks elementalists are great but as Utility characters that can participate in the warriors adrenaline spikes. Not as primary damage dealers.
Most of us knew this but some didnt it seems, take a look at the air eles in gvg Blind, Blind, Orb, Strike, Blind, Ether Prodigy.... |
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