Curse

wolfy3455 · Aug 22, 2005, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordTyrael

As you said, in the current NR environment, that's fine. I play by the current environment. How else would you win? There are too many enchantment removal groups/skills in use to make enchantments a viable thing to rely upon in HoH. On the other hand, there are very FEW skills for stance removal.

Fine as in excusable. I also play by the current enviroment and as I said, I would rather be using my 13 second JI window and facing 68 armoured rangers in spirit spam rather than 115 AL + mantras.

OverlordTyrael · Aug 22, 2005, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bast

Why would you run TF+Zealous when you could run Vampiric+Frenzy? Here you go: Itemized comparison:

TF+Zealous
Rules out using Vampiric (3 less damage per hit)
Rules out more useful secondary professions (Ranger and Warrior are largely redundant)
Makes using Shouts and other Stances more difficult and much less likely to be in time because of the non-attack skill lockout
Uses between half and 2/3 of your energy pool every 7-8 seconds
Costs at least 10 attribute points (level 4) to make the duration reasonable

Vampiric+Frenzy
+3 Damage per hit
Still have a useful secondary if needed
Only costs 5 energy
You take double damage while using it
Costs no attribute points

You keep listing costs no attribute points. The thing is, the attribute points DON'T MATTER. I have more than enough in all of the other skills to run my build extremely efficiently. As a side note, I would like to add that I would be smart enough to use my shouts/stances BEFORE I used TF, not that I have that many anyways (only 2, and one is sprint) In the long run, the 3 dph from Vamp isn't gonna matter if you have a 10/10 sundering haft that brings in the spike damage off of executioner's or eviscerate.

OverlordTyrael · Aug 22, 2005, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy3455

Fine as in excusable. I also play by the current enviroment and as I said, I would rather be using my 13 second JI window and facing 68 armoured rangers in spirit spam rather than 115 AL + mantras.

As another side note, my team also has NO problem taking out spirit spam ranger groups unless they are running a healing ball build with heal area/healing springs, in which case frenzy wouldn't help anyways. In fact, a BR pug running TF took down a XoO spirit spam group in all of about 4 or 5 minutes.

wolfy3455 · Aug 22, 2005, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordTyrael

As another side note, my team also has NO problem taking out spirit spam ranger groups unless they are running a healing ball build with heal area/healing springs, in which case frenzy wouldn't help anyways. In fact, a BR pug running TF took down a XoO spirit spam group in all of about 4 or 5 minutes.

I think I'm just going to chalk this one up as personal opinion. i stongly feel frenzy is better and, with my opinion being that, that my arguments should trump yours. This feeling probably comes from the fact that we have no statistical data for any points and they are based on our opinions/plays styles and team builds. I'm sure you feel the same way about TF and your arguments. Therefore, I'm going to says its a matter of opinion since when trying to be unbiased, I can see your reasoning. If you can create a complete effciency chart for either one I'll be happy to rejoin in this argument.

Theres enough opinion conflicts in this forum as it is (see r/w thread).

EDIT: Also, that time for a spirit spam team is impressive which was the reason for the quote :P

OverlordTyrael · Aug 22, 2005, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy3455

I think I'm just going to chalk this one up as personal opinion. i stongly feel frenzy is better and, with my opinion being that, that my arguments should trump yours. This feeling probably comes from the fact that we have no statistical data for any points and they are based on our opinions/plays styles and team builds. I'm sure you feel the same way about TF and your arguments. Therefore, I'm going to says its a matter of opinion since when trying to be unbiased, I can see your reasoning. If you can create a complete effciency chart for either one I'll be happy to rejoin in this argument.

Theres enough opinion conflicts in this forum as it is (see r/w thread).

EDIT: Also, that time for a spirit spam team is impressive :P

I completely agree with you. The individual build doesn't matter so much as the team. If anyone thinks that the difference of one skill will mean the difference between a crappy pug and an HoH all-star team, they're sorely mistaken.

As for the time it took to defeat that spirit spam group, we actually had to beat them twice (it took 4 minutes to beat them the first time, 2 minutes the second) because we decided to kill all of their spirits for faction before taking down their priest.

Vindexus · Aug 22, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordTyrael

Ever heard of something called a zealous axe haft?

Ever heard of Sundering? Use that and Frenzy.

Tigris Of Gaul · Aug 22, 2005, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Ever heard of Sundering? Use that and Frenzy.

Probably Vampiric and Frenzy.

OverlordTyrael · Aug 22, 2005, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Ever heard of Sundering? Use that and Frenzy.

Didn't I already answer this? I use Sundering/Zealous.

Bast · Aug 22, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

With the best skills in the Axe Attribute being adrenaline based, there is no reason to use Zealous. Vampiric or Sundering > Zealous since you don't *need* the energy unless you're using the grossly ridiculous TF over Frenzy.

Also: if you cast a stance before using TF, TF will cancel it. You can't use Sprint during that 5 second non-attack skill shutdown of TF. Adrenaline-charged non-attack skills get owned by TF's disabling. What if you're using something like Mend Ailment or Plague Touch with TF? You can't clear yourself of blind until TF ends, so that's a few seconds of uselessness.

Anyway, the point is, you *can* use TF, but the drawbacks to it severely limit what skills you can use, kinda like Battle Rage does, but less so.

Jake · Aug 22, 2005, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Frenzy is way better you just need some awareness and a cancel stance then you're pretty much perfectly fine for the most part.

wolfy3455 · Aug 22, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bast

What if you're using something like Mend Ailment or Plague Touch with TF? You can't clear yourself of blind until TF ends, so that's a few seconds of uselessness.

This part isn't the greatest argument in the world even though I do agree frenzy is better. If you were a w/ranger you would be using antidote signet. If you weren't a ranger anything, how the hell do you have TF?

pagansaint · Aug 22, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

All this speak of shatter hex or self hex removal or using JI or other self buffs is irrelevent.

This topic originated as Frenzy instead of TF on a character that has both available.

Namely a W/R or a R/W.

With the option of either frenzy or Tiger's fury (I was talking about flurry for random, because you do get targeted quick there) on a character that can have BOTH to choose from Tiger's Fury is the better choice in my opinion because to ME it makes more sense.

Hell my W/R Axe is built around it. IE zealous haft, +15% when in a stance axe, Gladiator's armor with Knights boots. Axe + Tiger's Fury is a GREAT combination, near all adrenaline attacks/skills. Only shout I use is FGJ. There is not energy crisis. Sword? Frenzy. Too many energy skills that are useful to warrant it unless you play smart. But then again using a zealous negates the cost of TF and all you do is worry about the 1 pip of energy regen for the skills.

Only use W/R for TF with my axe because with 11 Strength and 12 Axe non runed you don't have enough points left over to justify trying to use JI or Conjure.

On any other character? DUH Frenzy.

But that is not what we are talking about. All that has nothing to do with this.

Eonwe · Aug 22, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Is this even debatable? I mean, honestly. W/R is a sketchy combo to begin with... but going W/R for... Tiger's Fury? Are you on drugs?

pagansaint · Aug 22, 2005, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bast

What if you're using something like Mend Ailment or Plague Touch with TF? You can't clear yourself of blind until TF ends, so that's a few seconds of uselessness.

How do you have 3 classes?

Last I checked W/R or R/W doesn't have Mend Ailment or Plague Touch...

So this effects choosing Frenzy OR TF how on a warrior?

OverlordTyrael · Aug 22, 2005, 04:36 AM // 04:36

This is my LAST POST ON THIS SUBJECT. I am done arguing, although this has certainly been very enlightening. To the poster who was talking about mend ailment: That is the MONK'S job, not the warrior's. The warrior's is to deal pure damage. Beyond that, I would like to let the effectiveness of my/my team's build in HoH speak for itself. As many of you sound like able and intelligent PvPer's, I hope to meet you in Tombs sometime to try and change your opinion on this. Until then, Peace.

Viaz Xsikemesi · Aug 22, 2005, 04:42 AM // 04:42

yea, i'd say frenzy or flurry, but flurry only lasts 5 seconds >< and tkes 5 nrg

Bast · Aug 22, 2005, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Haha, I newbed it regarding Mend Ailment and Plague Touch. Woo. I'm glad two of you were paying attention, as if my newbing a post makes TF good or something.

But you're still wrong about TF. It's subpar, and choosing Ranger secondary only for TF is beyond dumb. It still rules out using any adrenaline-based non-attack skills (stances and shouts) due to the skill lock. It costs too much energy and requires a Zealous upgrade if you're gonna maintain it. It costs attribute points to get the duration anywhere near where it could be maintained and always available.

Plus, why would you use Tiger's Fury when you can have a 4 pip Mending and Healing Hands?

Do I even have to say </sarcasm>?

MCS · Aug 22, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

Overlord having an opinion is one thing but just plain lying isn't cool. I've faced BR in the tombs using frenzy I've won some I've lost some I've NEVER been targeted.

Zealous should be used for frenzy or TF. I just threw in the energy cost because it IS higher and harder to maintain. Frenzy needs zealous because you switch between sprint and frenzy a lot and don't have the entire duration go most of the time.

As for people talking about arenas stop it. This wasn't intended for arenas although I didn't clarify it should have been implied.

No more of the theory wars bull. Oh no if you're using frenzy people will notice and you'll be hit with some obscene skill that does 100 damage then have a warrior come and kill you. No thats not going to happen.

When you're using frenzy you do have to be more careful but it's far more effective. You'll do more damage period.

The flurry argument is disgusting stop please.

*MCS Predicts the next time he faces BR he will be their prime target*

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 22, 2005, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Bast clearly has some uber build that involves 3 classes. No wonder he can afford to use frenzy. Shows how much he knows. Hahaha.

Ishamael Sedai · Aug 22, 2005, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

WOW I am SO sick of people using Tigers fury on axe warriors. STOP IT. It's not better than frenzy in fact it's worse. You'll almost ALWAYS have downtime. The shorter the downtime you more damage you sacrifice for points into beast mastery. It costs 10 energy, frenzy costs 5 and lasts 8 seconds.

I truly can't even comprehend what would make people possibly think that Tigers Fury can even compete with Frenzy. OH EM GEE YOU TAKE DOUBLE DAMAGE WITH FRENZY. FFS From what? I swear to god when I ask people this half the time I get an answer like "chain light". Oh hell watch out for the uber spike teams you might get owned! Spike sucks, it's always sucked, if you lose a spike team trust me it's not because you're using frenzy.

Then there is smiting. A: You're not the target so you'll barely get hit B: NATURES RENEWAL.

Lastly and probably the only start of an argument I can see is putrid. Why are you being hit with putrid when frenzy is on though? You're not going to be near any of your monks corpses if they, god forbid, die so you shouldn't be hit with those so that leaves the other team. YOU'RE THE ONE KILLING. When you're about to kill someone turn on sprint tada no more frenzy. Why is your necro missing the putrids in the first place.

Oh and just another reason that Tigers Fury sucks is that it rapes any axe warrior attempting to use fear me. It'll be weak because you can't take out even more points, it'll never get cast because it'll never charge because TIGERS FURY SUCKS.

LNEFLWJBFWJBEWJBEEWKJWBJEFEWJK

Can anyone explain this to me?

you can also put a few spirits on that beast mastery warrior...