Curse

What if... · Dec 10, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

RaO, and Avatar of Grenth are two nerfs that I think are coming; Blinding Surge, Searing Flames, and Spiritual Pain, maybe.

RaO would be fine so long as it became a stance and ended when one pet died. That way teams would have some options of shutdown when contemplating how to control them.

Avatar of Grenth should change for obvious reasons. Perhaps an increase in cost, or other energy penalties can control this. I just don't want this skill destroyed.

Spiritual Pain I'm not so sure about though. Right now, it's used in spikes similar to the war Shatter/Burn/Surge are used only it retains a prohibitively long recharge. While it has potential to recharge instantly, how often are spirits placed in areas that allow this skill to be spammed? It certainly keeps ritualists out of top tier play, but ritualists had problems before SP; the nerf just made it more obvious. I may just be missing something here, or maybe I'm blinded by love. Either way if someone could enlighten me...

I think much of the damage caused by Searing Flames can be mitigated by proper positioning. The issue there is with the player, not the skill. And extra second recharge doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Critical Chop is fine, it's not like warriors spam it outside of spikes of anything.

Blinding Surge does make melee control extremely easy, but I still like the concept. My Mesmer's feelings for this skill are too strong to talk a nerf even though we're doubtful things will stay as they are. Increasing the recharge and removing the aoe will round this out nicely IMO.

Steady Stance: make it trigger on KD caused by enemies, I don't actually think this is what ANET had in mind when they made the skill. Although, they did put this skill and desperate/drunken blow in the same line...

Harrier's Grasp should simply be a non-elite version of Grenth's Grasp (moving + special skills) with a 15 second duration and a 30 sec recharge.

Grenth's Grasp/Ebon Dust Aura: I'm not sure. I'd like to say a single enchantment removal is all that is necessary to control people who use these skills, and on a ranger I might be right. Dervishes however have to means to bury this under many layers of enchantments. I will agree that spamming cripple and blind like this is ridiculous but I don't know enough about these skills to think of an effective nerf.

I didn't think "You're All Alone" still had issue and as I understood it, its use is limited to runner harassment. On a /Mo runner, I'd bring Mending touch to effectively counter this. I guess what I'm trying the stay is that the skill is fine IMO.

neoflame · Dec 10, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Searing Flames - Causes Exauhstion

Retarded.

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Magehunters Smash - Drop enchant conditional and it will be what hammers always needed non conditional non lose all adren knockdown.

Devastating Hammer.

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Glimmer - 1 sec recharge

Agreed.

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Healer's Covenant - 1...3...4 nrg (i know it doesnt get used but i like it with ra and pve)

You might as well be a restoration rit then?

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Mending Touch - 5-7 sec recharge (i think its a little to fast)

No.

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Jagged Bones - Something so death nova cant be used with it.

No.

RandomEngy · Dec 10, 2006, 07:17 PM // 19:17

And...

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Natural Stride - 1-10 sec

Wait, you want Natural Stride to be buffed? It's amazingly good as is.

JR · Dec 10, 2006, 07:30 PM // 19:30

I think you have to be really carefull when considering nerfs to Elite hexes.

They have to be pretty powerfull to merit taking over Elite energy management such as Offering of Blood - which you would use to pump out more of the lesser hexes.

Spamming more minor hexes is far less vaunerable to removal than relying on fewer more powerfull hexes. As such - Elites such as Reaper's Mark and Spoil Victor really have to be scary to see use.

Skuld · Dec 10, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by What if...

Steady Stance: make it trigger on KD caused by enemies, I don't actually think this is what ANET had in mind when they made the skill. Although, they did put this skill and desperate/drunken blow in the same line...

Of course they planned that. The thing they probably didn't anticipate was the synergy with fear me

Lorekeeper · Dec 10, 2006, 08:55 PM // 20:55

hmmm

steady stance+drunken/desperation blow+fear me - causing a high rate of energy denial... however... severely limits the flexibility of the warrior since it requires a high commitment into tactics... and in order to keep up the fear me spam the warrior shouldnt use any other stances apart from steady stance. So warriors move at regular speed and attack at a regular speed. They do not have a reliable deep wound nor a snare. In order for these things to kill... you either need to bring multiple copies of this warrior to completely deny monks their energy OR devote other parts of the team to causing damage. If you face a build which devotes a large part of its characters to these warriors... they become a one trick pony. One trick pony builds have a massive impact on the game when they first spread... but once teams face them a few times and learn their limitations... the one trick pony builds start to lose... badly. They then only enjoy success against guilds below rank 100 or so... allowing them to farm champ points but not climb the ladder. (but the whole idea of champ points is another issue entirely)

brace yourself + drunken/desperation blow

i tested this combo myself last nite... make an axe warrior with evis+drunken blow. Make a paragon with 15+ command and ask him to maintain brace yourself on the axe warrior. Spike a target which has no nearby allies. See the result. If you want a instant kill spike... add 1 more character to aid the axe warrior in the spike. For more dmg add anthem of envy on the paragon and have him use it on the countdown spike.

I tested with a final thrust sword warrior + axe warrior... its basically a evis+drunken+final spike (maybe crit chop if needed).... and if done perfectly... is instant.

One of these combos is OK and probably intended.
One of these combos is clearly a bug.

To be honest i wonder if its possible for the game to differentiate between sources of KD... whether its from an ally or an enemy. Because to be honest there are only 2 skills which self KD in the game. AHHH but wait... balths pendulum states... if ally is kded by foe... that foe is kded instead. Can anyone test to see if using drunken blow while having this enchant on self... does anything? If nothing happens this would suggest that the game can differentiate where the KD is coming from.

thinking of adding harriers grasp to my updated list on the front page... what do you all think?

any more thoughts on the steady stance or the brace yourself combos?

S4Play · Dec 10, 2006, 10:02 PM // 22:02

As far as Avatar of Grenth goes I say keep it, buff the other avatars up especially, Bal and Lyssa. Melandru needs lower e-cost, bal could use warrior armor penetration along the flavor of a warrior, lyssa could use interuppts on skill use. BTW both ARE still vulnerable to blinding before everyone crys out for blood on this.

IMO the whole notion of nerfing to keep damage potential down is a pile of steaming BS. The GvG meta is shifting towards longer VoD games because there are already so many ways to defend yourself and drag the game on. Witness the ritualist and paragons. They provide excellent defenses (at least the rit used to) and games would just meander on without any play dynamics whatsoever.

phoenixtech · Dec 11, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Seems to me steady + drunken is an intended combo. If it didn't trigger off self inflicted KD it would be a really piss poor skill and prob not even elite worthy. Personally I think it's fine the way it is since it's very easy to shut down, however if ANET really does want to nerf it reasonably all they have to do is lower the energy gain or adren gain (ONLY one not both) to make it fair.

Nerfing fear me would be absolutely retarded. The skill has been in the game forever and hasn't changed a single bit. If anything it's already been nerfed due to the introduction of anti-shouts. Nerfing fear me just because some people are abusing steady + drunken would be like trying to fix a broken leg by breaking the other one.

tomcruisejr · Dec 11, 2006, 12:33 AM // 00:33

i find it funny that the skills most want to be nerfed are new skills.

anyway,

*my nerf list:

Energy Surge
Energy Burn
Reversal of Fortune
Rush
HammerBash
Heal Party
Executioner's Strike
Lightning Strike
Shock
Eviscerate
Charm Animal
Diversion

*what to do:

Please change to something that is near useless

*reason:

It's been almost 2 RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin years and i still see them.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 11, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

I'm ok with all of those except heal party. Don't touch my baby.

What if... · Dec 11, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

See, I look at that list and have to ask "why?"
What about Diversion needs a nerf? or ROF, Eviscerate, and Rush?

I don't see why most of the skills on the list need a nerf.

Dragannia · Dec 11, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

[snip]

Those skills have their place in the metagame. So what that they are seen a lot? They're good skills, but not overpowering. They have their place and their counters. Why would you fiddle with something not already broken? Plus people will just move on to new FOTMs if they do get nerfed.

Anyway. My nerf list would be:

Searing Flames-> Slight recharge nerf, basically okay currently. Maybe hit the recharge to 3 secs.

Glimmer-> 1 sec recharge.

Spiritual Pain-> Spirits aren't really an issue, it's the 100 armour-ignoring damage which rigs this skill. A hit to the damage will do.

Rampage as One-> 25% attack boost, slightly lower duration.

Crit Chop-> Slight nerf to damage.

A few more I would like to see nerfed, I'll maybe type them if I can be bothered thinking of them. These are the ones on the top of my head. I'd like to see Divert Hexes nerfed but that ain't going to happen

EDIT: Feigned Neutrality is a bit too good right now. Nerf to maybe +40-ish armour, raise recharge to 30.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 11, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by What if...

See, I look at that list and have to ask "why?"
What about Diversion needs a nerf? or ROF, Eviscerate, and Rush?

I don't see why most of the skills on the list need a nerf.

I'll explain what Syra was going for:

A lot of new skills have come out that have changed the metagame. They are run on a lot of bars.

The skills Syra noted are meta-game defining. They are run on a lot of bars.

What syra is getting at, is that all these new skills that are good, are on-par with the skills that syra mentioned. People are crying for nerfs of all these skills that have made it into the metagame, without mentioning the fact that there are very strong skills that have remained roughly unchanged for two years.

or, in other words:
ZOMG NERF SEARING FLAMES!!!1!

Diversion? that's ok. I've seen it for two years, not two months. irregardless of the fact that you effectively shut down a target for 6 seconds, and if caught disable the skill for a minute.

Dragannia · Dec 11, 2006, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Don't touch my Diversion, bitch >: (.

What if... · Dec 11, 2006, 03:29 AM // 03:29

ditto

Seamus Finn · Dec 11, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Eh... I don't know. Feigned is a great ganker skill, but it's pretty necesary to have on sin since otherwise a YAA war will own him hard everytime. If that becomes the case, the class dies. I just think with Nightfall in general there are too many "easy button" skills. Feigned is one, but the list goes on:
Searing
Rampage
the Avatars(Grenth and Melandru)
Natural Stride
Mending Touch
YAA
B Surge

There are a bunch more as well that I am jsut too lazy to recall. Wasn't the whole gank metagame a lot more interesting before most of these skills? Now you know if they aren't subbing monk(WTF?) to gank and aren't a caster it's over. Shadow of Haste on the caster's is also a little crazy since it destroy the concept of positioning... A few less of the skills that any dummy can own with would be nice.

Oh btw, Eburn was nerfed. Say hello to Paragons and Fear Me! Spamming Wars from hell. Eburn can't compete in that arena anymore. Esurge still owns because of the aoe damage. With Spiritual, why would a mes run Eburn?

Etrik · Dec 11, 2006, 03:49 AM // 03:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Searing Flames - Causes Exauhstion

Blinding Surge - 5-7 sec recharge

Ether Renewal - I want longer duration!

Ava of Grenth - Lose energy when removes enchant

Hariers Grasp - Agreed on melee only

Crushing Blow - agreed on core

Barberous Slice - It costs more adren than sever already drop the stance condition and it will see some use.

Backbreaker - I always wanted to see this cause weakness but w/e.

Magehunters Smash - Drop enchant conditional and it will be what hammers always needed non conditional non lose all adren knockdown. Also make so it cant be blocked or evaded vs enchanted enemies.

Ranger Skills In General - Buff please

Natural Stride - 1-10 sec

Glimmer - 1 sec recharge

Healer's Covenant - 1...3...4 nrg (i know it doesnt get used but i like it with ra and pve)

Renew Life - Radar range heal

Mending Touch - 5-7 sec recharge (i think its a little to fast)

Spoil Victor - Lower duration to... something...

Jagged Bones - Something so death nova cant be used with it.

Reaper's Mark - Lower Duration

Simple Thievery - Steals Elite

Spiritual Pain - ...dunno

Sin shadow steps - Lower recharge of some to 30 sec

Shadow of Haste - Agreed on crit attribute

Rits in general - need another buff

Incoming - put back down to 5 nrg

Energizing - 1...2 nrg

What other (sane) people have been saying is fine. I really like the -1 on enchant removal nerf to AoG, and the interrupts if it hits while a skill is being cast on Lyssa would make it imba. Tho I do agree Dervishes need *some* interrupt. They are the only class that have none atm

Bankai · Dec 11, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

I agree with Thom actually. More new skills should see the game. A lot of them are just clearly inferior to older skills.

Riotgear · Dec 11, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

or, in other words:
ZOMG NERF SEARING FLAMES!!!1!

Diversion? that's ok. I've seen it for two years, not two months. irregardless of the fact that you effectively shut down a target for 6 seconds, and if caught disable the skill for a minute.

There's a bit of a difference, in that you can't build an entire team around Diversion, ROF, or Rush. :P

I'm tempted to avoid the SF issue entirely, but to quote someone else, when 9 of the 16 elites being used in a game are Searing Flames, it needs to be looked at. Although it does serve as a nice bar of where elementalist damage is finally viable.

As far as the Feigned/Paradox.... thing... I'd say the best solution is just to link the recharge reduction of Paradox to Deadly Arts. FN by itself is kind of neccessary as Shadow Refuge really is crap, but the fact that it can be kept up indefinitely for a whopping 5e expense is a bit excessive, especially when Dark Escape already exists as a mitigation option.

Quote:

I'm fairly certain that can't be done. Or it's too hard and the devs cba doing it.

Balthazar's Pendulum already does it. I strongly doubt it's difficult for them to code a check to see what skill/attack it was that knocked someone down, and where it came from.

Just decrease the adrenaline gain. Fear Me is not even remotely broken without SS.

Etrik · Dec 11, 2006, 09:11 AM // 09:11

FN can be kept up indefinately... for 10e every 13-14 seconds. Oh, and you can't use any attack skills. So this is yet another skill abused by another class (E/A or Mo/A runners) - similar to WY. Can't wait till FN (and by that sins) gets nerfed because other classes aren't affected by the drawbacks.

Go Nerfnet!