Curse

Kaon · Jul 12, 2007, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

and yes, I said sword. Spears are ugly.

Quoted for emphasis.

urania · Jul 12, 2007, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Only noobs use pve characters in pvp, unless you're rich and can be bothered enough to buy a dozen of shields.

shut up, kaon, you pvp scrub =D

MAdnRisKy · Jul 13, 2007, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Personally I love my collection of Req 8 tactics shields. But each to their own

Kaon · Jul 13, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

req8 tactics shields are just totally hax when running paraway...

Byron · Jul 14, 2007, 09:49 PM // 21:49

I gather we are focusing on the only prof that really matters, monk. In general monking duties, I think one scheme of weapon sets shines above the rest:

1) e-denial set (p'haps with an enchanting piece)
2) defensive set (standard swap)
3) casting set (20/20 or +5e)
4) emergency set (+15 -1)

Personally, I take a +5 armor sword for my defensive set and full health armor, unless I need an enchanting piece in that slot (an SoD monk, for example, would need an enchanting piece). Why? Because that extra 5 armor does more than the 30 health would, imo. Combined with the proper shield and the inherent armor bonus of the shield, your defensive set can put you into the 80 armor range against specific damage, or about 70 armor against all damage. The increased armor will frustrate pressure much more than another 30 health would.

For the casting set, the weapon you take depends highly on the build, and also personal tastes. Basically, something with high cast time and/or recharge should take a 20/20 (eg, LoD healer). A build with low cast/recharge times should go with a buffed energy set (eg, RC monk).

For midline duties, I use a similar scheme. Just swap out the e-denial set for a 15>50 staff.

Seamus Finn · Jul 15, 2007, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

I gather we are focusing on the only prof that really matters, monk.

Honestly, if any midliner isn't using weapon swaps to maximize efficiency, they really aren't doing their job very well. Getting the FC Diversion that hits a key skill can win the game just as easiliy as a monk swapping up to high energy to get a clutch infuse.

TheOneMephisto · Jul 15, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Honestly, if any midliner isn't using weapon swaps to maximize efficiency, they really aren't doing their job very well. Getting the FC Diversion that hits a key skill can win the game just as easiliy as a monk swapping up to high energy to get a clutch infuse.

Eww, FC domination fails horribly. I'd rather rely on actually predicting when the enemy is going to use a skill rather than relying on the incredible amount of luck that it would take to start casting diversion a second late and then hit a fast cast. Just cast it a second earlier.

Seamus Finn · Jul 15, 2007, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Then have fun trying to get out a diversion against a ranger that doesn't want you casting since you don't want to have an FC set(or for that matter landing a timely softball diversion on a target against a team wiht ANYONE watching you at all, seeing as how enemy diversions are often called by good teams). Obviously, you would have a set without the FC so you could have either option. Also, snagging another mes's diversion is basically made possible by FC sets and the ability to have the set gives the skill way more dimension anyhow. As if predicting skills and diverting them at normal cast wasn't a blurry enough tactic as it is, making it your only use of the skill is pretty wasteful.

Ensign · Jul 16, 2007, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Fast cast mods with Diversion are only any good if you're being bad at Dom and just spamming Diversion randomly. If I can't time my Diversion I wouldn't even bother using it 90% of the time.

Um Yeah · Jul 17, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Then have fun trying to get out a diversion against a ranger that doesn't want you casting since you don't want to have an FC set(or for that matter landing a timely softball diversion on a target against a team wiht ANYONE watching you at all, seeing as how enemy diversions are often called by good teams). Obviously, you would have a set without the FC so you could have either option. Also, snagging another mes's diversion is basically made possible by FC sets and the ability to have the set gives the skill way more dimension anyhow. As if predicting skills and diverting them at normal cast wasn't a blurry enough tactic as it is, making it your only use of the skill is pretty wasteful.

Knowing youre gonna take ~2 sec to cast diversion when youre counting recharges is a lot more reliable than depending on 36% percent chance to get half cast just to dodge a dshot. Even then, ranger/mes can probably still get your diversion with ~1s cast. If you know a ranger's sitting on you waiting for diversion, then a) they probably aren't doing anything else so theyre pretty bad and b) you can just fake them out.

Sadistic Spikage · Jul 17, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Pretty much the only purposes for staves in gvg is for a necro in which u need the 40/40 fast cast if a ranger is on u and a monk to cast aegis, because of the fact that with the staff u can get the 20% enchant AND the 40/40 fast cast which u can NOT do with any combination of wand,weapon or offhand

Guillaume De Sonoma · Jul 18, 2007, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Fast cast mods with Diversion are only any good if you're being bad at Dom and just spamming Diversion randomly. If I can't time my Diversion I wouldn't even bother using it 90% of the time.

MoR Bar AMIRITE?

lord of shadow · Jul 18, 2007, 08:02 AM // 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

MoR Bar AMIRITE?

Quoted for Comedy.

Avarre · Jul 18, 2007, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

Honestly, if any midliner isn't using weapon swaps to maximize efficiency, they really aren't doing their job very well. Getting the FC Diversion that hits a key skill can win the game just as easiliy as a monk swapping up to high energy to get a clutch infuse.

By the same logic, you could miss because of a faster cast.

Agreed with Ensign and Um Yeah, just fake past someone if they're watching you, fc is only great if you want to spam it as much as possible, and try to get lucky.

Seamus Finn · Jul 18, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

By the same logic, you could miss because of a faster cast.

Agreed with Ensign and Um Yeah, just fake past someone if they're watching you, fc is only great if you want to spam it as much as possible, and try to get lucky.

Yes you could also miss. But let's be honest here. A good player isn't going to really be throwing a skill out on recharge if they know a mesmer is going to want to divert it. If we are to be even more honest: diverting a skill that isn't 1/4 sec against a good player requires luck more than anything(while admitting that knowing when the skill is available to the player and when he will want to use it will increase your chances dramatically). Let's take a bsurge as our example since everyone wants it diverted. 3/4 sec is VERY cancelable. In order to divert the skill against a player that I would consider competant with skill cancels, it must hit land on the target when the skill is half-cast(in other words, less than 1/2 sec to cancel the skill). This timeframe is so small that, unless you make team plays to divert the skill, counting a recharge and assuming the guy will use it within 1/2 sec of its recharge basically says you think the guy is not a good player, and if you were right, then great; but you didn't have to play that well to divert the skill anyhow.

In my opinion, counting recharges and "precisely" timing your diversions to hit by that isn't going to produce a better result unless you are diverting a skill on a bad player. Diversion is not really not precise enough to reliably get skills that way. The only time where I would absolutely want my diversion hitting at the slowest cast other than facing bad players who can't skill cancel, is on a play made to divert said skill(kding a bsurge and having divert hit right when he stands up, for instance). But there are still many instances where a diversion jumping out faster than usual is very useful(if you jsut want to divert a monk before a spike the FC gives you a better chance of it getting out and more time to even assist on said spike, or if you are running shame, hit the other monk as well). Actually, almost any situation where you want the "shutdown" aspect of diversion more than the consequence of the skill triggering is a situation where FC is probably optimal since you basically just want to get the skill out. And as I said before, diversions are an enemy skill thats often called. A 3/4 diversion has a much lower probability of not be called before it reaches your target, given vent lags etc. vs a 1.5-2 sec diversion.

I am not suggesting that people should just sit in a 20/20 set and spam diversion. But I do think having the set gives you way more plays to make with what is probably the class's best skill bar none, and I think it's surprising how unanimous the forum seems to be on the issue.

Oni Firestarter · Jul 18, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

The whole "counting" recharges is something bad to ok mesmers do to make themselves ok to good mesmers.

Great mesmers use recharges as just one more piece of info in their massive collection.

I play warrrior mainly.. whats one of the the defining things about good warriors? understanding how players move. Top warriors understand exactly where other characters want to be and either deny that or leverage it.

What defines great mesmers? understanding how characters use skills. Recharge is an important piece of information, but not everything. An example, you want to divert bsurge lets say. Your warrior calls for a spike on their monk. When that ele sees two wars bee-lineing for their monks, he will cast bsurge, and if he doesn't, thats win win for your team. The point learnt here: because of INFO your warrior fed you, you were two seconds ahead of their ele. By being TWO seconds ahead of their ele, you can nab his bsurge. As a mesmer gets better, he doesn't need to be fed spike calls, he can see positioning on the map, and simply put, just process info faster than their ele and move 2 seconds up on him. Anytime a mesmer gets 2 seconds ahead of you, you are in for some serious pain.

So being a good mesmer relies on two things: Understanding how players use skills, and finding ways to be two seconds ahead of that character.

Same goes with an expel. You want to divert it? You NEED to understand HOW their team uses it. Are they expelling caster hate? War hate? and then by understanding how your team is applying hexes, you can reasonably predict when he is going to use it, and nab it.

This can be extended to..... tons of differnt skills.. RC (are they cleaning up all spikes with RC? you are now 2 seconds ahead of the RC easy). Spike skills (lightning orb gives you 2 seconds to get that second attack skill) etc etc etc

Being able to breakdown how players use skills, and then find ways to get information ahead of their player is the key to mesmers.

That bsurger is a rational human being - not a random number generator. There is something clicking in his head that tells him when to use bsurge. When you can break that down and process the game faster than he can, cya later bsurge (or force veils for the rest of the game - being 4 seconds ahead of a player is really fricken hard)

But FC on diversion - it kinda seems like you are just sending out the diversion hoping to get something.

Byron · Jul 19, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oni Firestarter

The whole "counting" recharges is something bad to ok mesmers do to make themselves ok to good mesmers.

What?

Quote:

But FC on diversion - it kinda seems like you are just sending out the diversion hoping to get something.

Yes.

Being a good mesmer, like most things in GW, comes from experience. Knowing skills has something to do with it, but it's also battlefield awareness. Trying to breakdown the science of being a good mesmer won't yield much. Furthermore, camping a bsurger with diversion isn't good use of the skill imho.

urania · Jul 19, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

What?

something bad-to-ok mesmers do to make themselves ok-to-good mesmers.
or...something mediocre mesmers do to make themselves average mesmers.

more understandable now?

Ensign · Jul 19, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

I guess I look at Diversion a bit differently. On first pass it'd seem that the point of the skill is to remove a key skill from someone's bar for a period of time - and yes, sometimes it does do that. But I don't feel that's the goal of the skill, as much as using the threat of it to throw off an opponent's timing. At its peak effectiveness, you understand when an opponent really wants to use their skills, when they need to, and you drop a Diversion on in those circumstances to stifle action for a time.

If I wanted to shut down Blinding Surge hard, for instance, I would be using Signet of Humility under MoI, not Diversion. You lock the skill out longer, more consistently, with a single copy of SoH than with Diversion - at a much lower cost. If I just wanted to knock skills off an opponent's bar, I'd use Arcane Thievery. If skill blackout is all you're after, you're using the wrong tools. What you get to do with Diversion is remove a player's ability to make optimal plays. If you can plant a Diversion somewhat consistently on a skill's recharge, or at the end of a knockdown, or after their energy recovers to a point when they could cast again, or after another mes effect is about to end, you've created an environment where your opponent simply cannot make the plays that he wants to make for risk of being punished for said predictable play. The point isn't knocking off a skill, it's making them play with their finger on escape, making them spend time not casting waiting for Diversions to wear off or, even better, not casting because they expect a Diversion to land soon. It's not about disabling skills, it's about time and manipulating the pace of the game.

I consider Diversion to be similar to RoF on its effect on the game. It has a good amount of power, and you can get pretty far just by spamming the skill around. But its real value comes from combining it with other skills to set up bigger plays. On its own the skill is pretty mediocre in my mind. It's really easy to fall into a weak pattern of spamming Diversion as though you were going fishing, since it's so easy and sometimes it pays off. But that really isn't that effective overall, random Diversions don't pay off often, and there are much better uses of your time and energy.

Seamus Finn · Jul 19, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

If I wanted to shut down Blinding Surge hard, for instance, I would be using Signet of Humility under MoI, not Diversion. You lock the skill out longer, more consistently, with a single copy of SoH than with Diversion - at a much lower cost. If I just wanted to knock skills off an opponent's bar, I'd use Arcane Thievery. If skill blackout is all you're after, you're using the wrong tools.

Agreed with these assesments, of course, Humility MoI is two slots, and the larceny theiveries are also fishing skills. Diversion is the generalist skill that can provide a modicom of what all of the more narrow effects that those skills can accomplish. For me, Diversion is basically THE mesmer skill, since you can really run it on anything else and it represents the most usefulness in the most amount of situations for a dom mes(since, if nothing else, you can shutdown almost any target for 6 seconds).

On another note, what you consider to be the primary use of Diversion wouldn't really be hampered by an FC mod if I am reading correctly. If you are timing for the shutdown aspect primarily, if it gets there 3/4-1 sec faster the most you would lose in comparison to the "perfectly timed" diversion is one second of shutdown. Is 5 seconds that much worse than 6 if your skill got on target that much faster?