Curse

Byron · Jul 25, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Releasing the skill descriptions before releasing the game was a great idea tbh.

Pulverising smash is fine. No damage buff, weakness is under deep wound, and KDs don't come easy in the first place. I think it's rubbish, unless you plan to have a dedicated linebacker. It being 4 adrenaline makes it bull's strike-able, though.

Disarm could be interesting. I could see a midliner(or, hell, even a backliner) swapping out a sword to quickly wipe an enemy warrior's adrenaline. I forsee a nerf.

Cracked armor seems dumb. And making the cap 70 armor would make it even more useless. Some of the warrior and dervish attacks give it a little potential. Though, imho, it's another shallow gimmicky aspect that will probably see boatloads of HA play.

Anthem of disruption needs a hike on recharge and/or casting time before we see those unbeatable 2-paragon builds again.

Aneuysm, as it stands now, looks very tasty. It would make for killer adren spikes, especially on elementalist midliners or flaggers. Filling up a b-surger's energy reserves in exchange for 200 damage? Okay.

Power lock spells doom for LoD. It shall be nerfed.

Defile defenses needs one hell of a recharge hike. I would say to at least 15 seconds.

Those are the skills that stood out to me on this pass.

Riotgear · Jul 26, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Cracked armor seems dumb. And making the cap 70 armor would make it even more useless.

I'd rather see it cause a more-severe reduction with easier application and a higher cap. At this point, it's still going to hurt casters that use a shield swap, it's not going to do jack against plate armor zerg teams, and it's too spotty to use as anything other than spike. It has potential for making softer targets out of frontliners, but the current implementation is crap.

Lodurr · Jul 26, 2007, 06:01 AM // 06:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

It has potential for making softer targets out of frontliners, but the current implementation is crap.

Quite true. How is it that warriors don't get any armor-breaking skills? Even in the hammer line? It would make counter-spiking Frenzy spammers even more fun.

Unsuspecting Blow - "If target foe is attacking, this attack hits for +1...21 damage and that foe has Cracked Armor for 5...10 seconds."

Patccmoi · Jul 26, 2007, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodurr

Quite true. How is it that warriors don't get any armor-breaking skills? Even in the hammer line? It would make counter-spiking Frenzy spammers even more fun.

Unsuspecting Blow - "If target foe is attacking, this attack hits for +1...21 damage and that foe has Cracked Armor for 5...10 seconds."

Cracked Armor was meant to be caused by some classes, and exploited by others. Iirc, every class that has a skill making use of Cracked Armor (warriors, rangers, dervishes, paragons...) have no ability to cause it. But Ele, Rts, Mesmers, Necros and Assassins (izzy said something about Shadowy Burden and Weaken Armor switching to Cracked Armor) will be able to. And monks will remove it all =p

I don't see the problem with the system personally, but i DO agree with a higher cap and stronger debuff. Something like -30AL, capped at 70AL (which is still really low enough to spike someone down). I don't think you should be able to turn a 120AL guy to 70AL though, cause that seems a bit too much and makes AL buffs actually pointless as i can easily see nearly every team carrying one way or another to cause Cracked Armor on spikes. And Shell Shock/Sundering Weapon are actually very good skills for it that can easily be fit on many skill bars to do it (Sundering Weapon for spike purpose would work perfectly at 6 Communing which is 5s duration, which is really low investment, and a Me/Rt could use it on every spike easily, in MoR they could even use it whenever they want. It's just 5/1/10 after all. Shell Shock can easily find its way on any BSurge bar).

The main thing about it is obviously to spike down frontliners, and i think it's a very good condition to do it. And yes, it's a spike condition, but DW is too and i don't think there's anything wrong with that. It makes them easier to remove on spike with Draw/RC, but if you don't remove them in time they're deadly.

The only concern i have atm is that it might make Melandru Dervs even more popular as frontliners, because when you can reduce warrior armor on spike to 80-90AL, they have about the same but Melandru can't be DW and has higher health. So in the end Melandru, which is already very similar in tanking power to a warrior, becomes even harder to spike in comparison.

Ultra Mega · Jul 27, 2007, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Some changes to the new skills:

Warrior
Body Blow: 5...25...30 damage -> 10...34...40 damage
Grapple: added "you lose all stances"
Disarm: move to strength 1..5s -> 0..5s
Distracting Strike: 10r -> 15r
Soldier's Speed: 33% move -> 25% move

Ranger
Disrupting Shot: 12r -> 15r
Poison Tip Signet: 10r 5..15s -> 6r 8..15s

Monk
Castigation Signet: 10..60 damage 20r -> 26..56 damage 15r
Smite Condition: reduce aoe from in the area, to nearby
Steadfast Soul ->renamed: Aura of Stability

Necromancer
Defile Defenses: 30..120 damage 5..20s -> 30..105 damage 10s
Hexer's Vigor: 5e 2c 20r 30s 1..4 regen -> 5e 2c 10r 10s 1..8 regen

Mesmer
Calculated Risk: 15e 2c 20r 5..20s -> 10e 1c 10r 4..10s
Power Lock: add chants to interrupt and disable
Shrinking Armor: 10r -> 8r
Signet of Distraction: 1..4s disable per -> 1..5s disable per signet
Signet of Recall: -> Remove the Lose all energy
Sum of All Fears: 5..30 25r -> 5..20 10r
Waste not Want not: 20r 1..16e -> 15r 8..13e

Elementalist
Energy Blast: 140 max damage -> 130 max damage
Glyph of Immolation: 1..3 spells -> 1..4 spells
Glyph of Swiftness: Reworked skill: For 15 seconds, your next 1..3 spells recharge 25% faster, and projectiles from those spells move 200% faster.
Shell shock:10e -> Change to lightning damage, 5e
Slippery Ground: 15e 1c 10r -> 5e 1c 20r
Ward of Weariness ->renamed: Ward of Weakness

Assassin
Smoke Powder: 30s -> 8s renamed: Smoke Powder Defense
Way of the Warrior ->renamed: Way of the Master

Ritualist
Energetic Was Lee Sa: 30r -> 20r
Pure Was Li Ming: 30r -> 20r
Spirit Leech Aura: 5..20 -> 5..50

Paragon
Anthem of Disruption: 5e 1c 10r -> 10e 2c 15r
Anthem of Weariness: 10r -> 8r
Hasty Refrain: 1..6s -> 3..11s
Inspirational Speech: 10e -> 5e
Nonsensical Spear ->renamed: Maiming Spear
Spear of redemption: skill rework: If it hits, you deal +5..20 damage, otherwise you lose 1 condition.

Dervish
Crippling Victory: 5..20 damage -> 5..10 damage
Pious Fury: 4..10s -> 2..6s discuss skill change here.
Shield of Force: now blocks next attack skill.
Wither Aura: now only works on melee attack.

Vermilion · Jul 27, 2007, 02:42 AM // 02:42

looks better imo.

Thomas.knbk · Jul 29, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I would like to see the quote "if you're wielding a bow" on "rapid fire".
If not, melee characters will get the most uber IAS they can. Cheap, with low recharge and low attribute investment for max IAS (+33%). As a preparation it can't be removed.
Even better than weapon of agression.

a 2 sec cast time, an attribute investment and the need to recast it every 12 seconds keep it far from the most uber IAS ever. It will be just as uber as Apply W/R's, and we all know how uber they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

The Curse necro slaps barbs on the LoD. The prot puts SoD on the LoD. GG, Master of Whispers slaps the SoD'd LoD with Defile Defenses, then he and Olias spike with Desecrate Enchantments. With 2 Raos and pets, with a very high chance to miss, thus triggering DD, an easy 400+ spike (conservative estimate) within a matter of seconds.

That's the cause for overreaction. Any sort of prot is useless against this. GG.

I'll admit I haven't been to HA lately, but using 4 people for a 400 dmg spike hardly sounds dangeroes to me. The damage of DD is still going to be A LOT less than the physical damage you just prevented by using said prot in 90% of the cases. This is not punishing the use of prot, it's making prot slightly less effective.

Just realised I'm looking at a different version of DD than the person I'm quoting. It now lasts 10 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaelen

Cracked Armor should just make your AL 70, flat out.

If you have 110 AL, its 70 AL under Cracked Armor
If you have 70 AL, its 70 AL under Cracked Armor

fixed

I was thinking the same thing, but with 60 AL. Saying that's bad because monks should be encouraged to wear shields is like saying blind should be removed because warriors should be encouraged to take weapons. A condition harms you, that's what they're there for. And taking a shield on a monk is still going to pay off, because there's no way CA is going to be on you 100% of the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

Aneuysm, as it stands now, looks very tasty. It would make for killer adren spikes, especially on elementalist midliners or flaggers. Filling up a b-surger's energy reserves in exchange for 200 damage? Okay.

The only way to make Aneuysm playable imo is to make it target an ally, oh, and make it elite. I'd be more than happy to sac some health for a crapload of energy. Remember how we used to sac about the same amount of health for 13 energy from OoB? This is the same thing, exept you gain 40 energy. That's only really threatening in case of a spike, but it's way too conditional for a spike.

I'm personally more afraid of Calculated Risk, Cacaphony, Hexer's Vigor (which is hardly conditional on a reaper's mark) and to a lesser extend Putrid Bile in hex builds. Calculated Risk is going to be energy heavy, but nobody cares because you've just shut down one melee with one skill and have the rest of your bar free for some nice degen hexes or spirit of failure. This skill is basically what Reckless Haste always wanted to be.

Cure hex is a nice attempt, but I wouldn't take it over deny or veil. Spotless mind could actually be good if it were every 4 seconds. (which would be 4 hexes on a LoD with a 20% mod).
Earthen Shackles is all good and fun and easily countered until you realise some people actually have Burning as their home map. Then it becomes pretty good. Then you realise you could actually fit this in a mind blast hybrid build with MoR and it becomes pretty damn good. (something like Blast, MoR, Shackles, Ward of Weakness, GG, Aegis, Fire Attunement, res sig, with 14 fire, 8+1 earth, 8 prot and some leftovers in ES)
Purifying Veil is Holy Veil for conditions, but the problem is Condi removal actually has a lot of decent alternatives, as opposed to hex removal. This is not going to see any play. Smite Condition is killed by the recharge. Along with Smiter's Boon, a smite monk is VERY close to becoming a viable template though. If the recharge on Reversal of Damage and Smite Condi were to be reduced, they could see a lot of play.
Sins and their lead attacks have been mentioned and covered enough imo.
Way of the master: WTF. I looked at this, and I thought 'nice, this would be very strong on a W/A or D/A, probably even too strong'. Then I realised it was in Critical Strikes. I'm probably too narrow-minded to truly see the potential of A/D's with scythes and their huge wtfcrits, but if I wanted a scythe I'd go Dervish primary because they can turn into a tree.

All the worries about warriors being pushed out of the field by dervs (even more) are imo correct. Further reducing the health is not going to do anything. What I think would work is to give AoM a condition reduction of 25...55% (enough to take advance of a deep wound on a spike, and blind would be sort of effective if you time it perfectly on a spike, but it still grants some form of reduction)

urania · Jul 30, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

I was thinking the same thing, but with 60 AL. Saying that's bad because monks should be encouraged to wear shields is like saying blind should be removed because warriors should be encouraged to take weapons. A condition harms you, that's what they're there for. And taking a shield on a monk is still going to pay off, because there's no way CA is going to be on you 100% of the time.

Ofc its not going to be on you 100 % of the time.
It would very likely be used on spikes only which renders a shield completely useless, actually, it represents a disadvantage for u because one's energy poll is lower when in shield set as when having an artifact and a melee weapon equipped. So what would be the point of wearing a shield if your armor would be capped at 60 during a spike anyway?
But i can imagine it'll stay on you longer or better to say, it'll be spammed more in 4vs4 arenas...

D Fault · Jul 30, 2007, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Thats like saying 'whats the point in standing up because on spikes they're going to gale you'.

Riotgear · Jul 30, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

The damage of DD is still going to be A LOT less than the physical damage you just prevented by using said prot in 90% of the cases. This is not punishing the use of prot, it's making prot slightly less effective.

I don't see DD as part of a spike for that reason, what it's going to be used for is insurance. You're probably going to see situations where DD is thrown on someone and the Eviscerate/Gash/Wearying hits, something else hits, and where another followup or assist (that probably wouldn't have done 100+ damage) would have been block, DD detonates instead. Not every hit is an Eviscerate, so maximizing DD's use obviously requires using it to cover up for things that a 100+ damage packet is less than normal.

Quote:

The only way to make Aneuysm playable imo is to make it target an ally, oh, and make it elite.

I could care less, Aneurysm is going to wind up being one of those gimmicky jokes of a skill used in RA builds, in some build with the same level of sillyness as touch rangers or frag spikers. Let the scrubs have their fun.

Ironically, if it does have a practical use, it may be best for spiking frontliners, because their ability to spend energy is largely limited by cooldowns so feeding them a big pack of energy isn't really going to put them in overdrive like it would a midliner.

Quote:

I'm personally more afraid of Calculated Risk, Cacaphony, Hexer's Vigor (which is hardly conditional on a reaper's mark) and to a lesser extend Putrid Bile in hex builds.

Cacophony seems useless when Vocal Minority flat-out prevents the use of shouts for the same duration. It's akin to trying to explain why Backfire is a bad skill in competitive play.

Quote:

Earthen Shackles is all good and fun and easily countered until you realise some people actually have Burning as their home map.

Lava is getting changed to an environmental effect.

Quote:

All the worries about warriors being pushed out of the field by dervs (even more) are imo correct. Further reducing the health is not going to do anything. What I think would work is to give AoM a condition reduction of 25...55% (enough to take advance of a deep wound on a spike, and blind would be sort of effective if you time it perfectly on a spike, but it still grants some form of reduction)

Between the addition of various powerful new things that depend on conditional application to work properly, and Disarm making adrenaline much more fragile, Mel's had better be getting a nerf. ANYTHING other than complete condition immunity would be acceptable, another common proposition is removing conditions on the use of skills or attack skills similar to Dwayna.

Thomas.knbk · Jul 30, 2007, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Cacophony seems useless when Vocal Minority flat-out prevents the use of shouts for the same duration. It's akin to trying to explain why Backfire is a bad skill in competitive play.

Backfire only lasts for 1/3rd of its recharge though. You're probably right about Vocal Minority, but if paragons gain popularity it might well pay off to take both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Lava is getting changed to an environmental effect

Lava IS an environmental effect. One that causes cripple and burning.

Riotgear · Jul 30, 2007, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

Backfire only lasts for 1/3rd of its recharge though. You're probably right about Vocal Minority, but if paragons gain popularity it might well pay off to take both.

VM already train-wrecks teams that rely on Paragons as soon as you stuff SoH down the throat of their Expeller, I wasn't under the impression that the game needed more skills that were utterly useless against anything other than one gimmick.

Quote:

Lava IS an environmental effect. One that causes cripple and burning.

I mean it's getting changed from conditions to a non-condition effect that slows movement by 50% and gives you -7 degen.

yule · Jul 31, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

so runners get no benifit from taking cripple -36% or being clever with mend touch? awesome! lets take another element of smart play away to make up for some crappy new skill being introduced!

Lorekeeper · Jul 31, 2007, 02:11 PM // 14:11

its been hinted that there is a balance update due this week. All i am interested in seeing is what is done about heroway and rit spike.

Everything else takes a backseat as far as im concered. Even SP sins and rampaging trees.

Snow Bunny · Jul 31, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorekeeper

its been hinted that there is a balance update due this week. All i am interested in seeing is what is done about heroway and rit spike.

Everything else takes a backseat as far as im concered. Even SP sins and rampaging trees.

"Hero AI now must be directly controlled by the players, and have the same latency correspondence as players. Furthermore, you may have no more than 2 heroes a team"
"Tainted Flesh now costs 15e"

mmmm.....that's my fantasy for a skill update.
Defile Defenses isn't broken anymore, tg.

Turbobusa · Jul 31, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by yule

so runners get no benifit from taking cripple -36% or being clever with mend touch? awesome! lets take another element of smart play away to make up for some crappy new skill being introduced!

I second that.

Riotgear · Aug 01, 2007, 12:01 AM // 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by yule

so runners get no benifit from taking cripple -36% or being clever with mend touch? awesome! lets take another element of smart play away to make up for some crappy new skill being introduced!

"New skill?" Considering Melandru was added at the same time as Mending Touch and the Cripple-reduction rune, this makes no sense. I will agree though that it seems to be another way to nerf around Melandru, another sign of Anet refusing to bury a bad idea.

neoflame · Aug 01, 2007, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

"New skill?"

Referring to Earthen Shackles I think.

Living Parasite · Aug 01, 2007, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Which is a bad skill idea. So conditional it just screams gimmick.

Zuranthium · Aug 01, 2007, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Burning isn't so hard to apply; it's not that conditional. The real question is if it's overpowered or not.

~Z