Curse

Servant of Kali · Aug 31, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User_...its_solutio n

Legendary Battousai · Aug 31, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Servant of Kali

It's funny how only people who use heroes think it's a challenge for *others* to beat heroes.

Talking about challenge, why don't you play with HENCHMEN then? Ha? How bout some challenge for you?

No, sorry, we don't find it challenging nor interesting nor fun to play against or with heroes.

Thanks for losing all credibility with this line.

That agreement wasn't reached ANYWHERE in the game. As a matter of fact, ANet disagrees with you. If they allow people to play the game the way they want to, why does ANet ban bots? I mean, according to you, bots can play the game they want to. Why do so many people hate leechers and why is ANet trying to remove leeching? After all, we should just let people leech because that's how they wanna play the game.

Actually, I'll complain about people instead. This is 21st century and sometimes seeing posts like yours I'm wondering whether I'm surrounded by Homo Sapiens or did I wake up in the wrong space-time continuum where the specie didn't evolve to that point yet, judging by the lack of total logic and coherence of the posts.

ps: ah nvm looking below your nick it seems warrior is your favorite profession, that explains few things..

Now go to Hero Battles if you want to play with Heroes. Thanks.

Retarded flame without any content. But in response to your only comment worth shit: Its a challenge to run heroes in GvG, because I run a different build unlike everyone else, and have success with it - sure it took some time to perfect it, but it wasn't an instant win like the N/Rt. You claim botters play the game how they want to? Botters, unlike heroes, destroy economy. Leechers are in places of PvE, so who cares? The rewards are miniscule and worthless.

Also, please explain to me what I play has anything to do with anything?
You must be a PvEr to think something that prejudice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrodien

Legendary Battousai's arguments fail.

Getting an over-inflated ranking because you abuse hero AI does not make a good argument to keep heroes in PvP.

Getting reward points in ATS because you abuse hero AI does not make a good argument to keep heroes in PvP.

Enlarging your E-Peen because you abuse hero AI does not make a good argument to keep heroes in PvP.

And if its pointless debating the issue, why the hell are you debating it?

Winning an AT with heroes, then the next day winning the AT with humans. We don't rely on heroes - we are good without them. And with this one bit of information, your entire post is faulty, and ignores most of everything I said in my last post.

Nurse With Wound · Aug 31, 2007, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Dear herowayers, luckily, the poll speaks for itself, and we will see what measures will be taken by Arena Net who are finally starting to listen to the voice of community ( see HA changes, postponing the change of gladiator's title ). I strongly think that at least HA limit should be implemented in GvG. Of course ideal solution would be getting rid of AI bots all together.

Herowayers, you are a minority. Most of the players are sick and tired of AI polluting PVP. If guild wars ever wants to be treated as serious competitive game again, this joke, that started with the Nightfall release has to stop. Before Nightfall, there were no "heroes" and the PVP community was just fine. It isn't now, although heroes alone can't be blamed for this state of the game.

Note - I've deleted the offtopic. If you are confused, read the thread's title. This isn't discussion about AT rewards or pvp/pve war. Make another thread if you want to talk about this.

Snow Bunny · Aug 31, 2007, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by beltran13579

i do think that they should be banned but to say because its Player vs player isnt a reason its called player vs player because there are 2 teams of actual people not FULL teams of CPUs

It's player versus RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing player.

I don't want to have to beat your Olias over and over again.

If you support heroes, then stfu and gtfo.

Shmanka · Aug 31, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Battousai

Ohithar

First of all: Shmanka, I understand your frustration from being demolished by my hero build, and I send my condolences, but calling them overpowered and such just because of this, seems like an over reaction. On Nomads and Jade - the teleporters will only teleport heroes IF and ONLY IF they are within a little more than cast range of the PERSON going through the teleporter. Notice I didn't say the person controlling the heroes. Which leads to why this is not overpowered.

Well I think it's actually time to adress this point and give every reader here a clearer image. So why don't we do this with pictures?

The first screenshot(VekkPorts) here is actually a bottom arrowkey away from porting my new best friend Vekk. If you look at the compass there is a huge line of distance compared to him and myself. Remember all those gvg's where someone was snared behind? Probably the exact same distance Vekk is right now? And your ally was killed? Maybe because it was his own fault, or you had no healer, whatever the reason may be.

Well this is the funny thing with heroes and teleporters that I found out during our famous match. That it is near broken. Why should you have the range of a free deaths retreat because you are a hero? Do you not understand the implications of this? You can actually Rambo 3 heroes into enemy NPC's the second too much pressure is applied you only have to make 1/3 the distance to the teleporter to get out of harms way.

So people may say atm, "Big Woop Swift, what's the problem anyway?"

I'll explain.

The two guild halls with this ability at the moment are Jade Isle and Nomad's Isle. Jade this problem can be more relevant.

In Jade isle you can avoid over 3/4 of the coral damage if you are a hero, real player you cannot.
With either guild hall snares are near meaningless on you, the person controlling the heroes only needs to camp the teleporter.
Your split classes can be more offensive then normal, giving easy huge NPC advantage with no skill.

From fighting this personally, Talkhora was even KNOCKED DOWN and at 15-20% health but disapeared instantly approximately 8-9 times that entire match. Do you know the amount of death pentaly she avoided for being a hero? Along with other heroes? Your split could have been completely DP'ed out. Do you not understand the implications this causes?

Battousai you do not deserve any champ points for this, if I had it my way I would call this huge exploitation and nail you like those people that duped 10,000 ambraces. Saying you guested with Axiom only gets you a few cookies, high references doesn't avoid true statements.

Things like this keep slipping, which makes me wonder alot about the balance alot of us still seek in this game. In all honesty I sometimes feel this forum is just a showroom where we try to think of a good and balanced game. Then people like you show up to make it look like a prom. There are over 1000 skills you are correct, but name me off the top of your head how many skills you have never used or used once and refuse to look at again? How many skills do you see on obs mode? We have a restriction, and there is no problem with that, but even when some skills are mathematically just better then others, and combine that with non-human reaction and skill, I am certain the general users of this game can agree to the fact that there are bigger fish to fry.

You even narrowly pointed out a problem with heroes and flagging. I tested that out as well, and you are correct, but it's easily avoided. In my opinion it's easier to avoid then using Frenzy and Healing Signet at the same point in time. (Oh Btw Izzy was caught doing this as well)

So let's see if Izzy can teleport a whole aggro circle away without any skills likewise, I am pretty certain no one here can.

If ANet thinks Recall was bad, check this out.

Look at the distance and the NPC's you can kill without consequence.

Here are the original screenshots as well so people don't think otherwise.

Algae Bloom · Aug 31, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

heroes defeat the spirit of the game. you spend hours working on a team build, hours organizing your group, and seconds losing to the same bars run by heroes and the people who exploit the AI. this is a team game and almost every aspect of it requires team coordination. for someone to simply put heroes in their group and head on in degrades the experience for all players.

i'm not saying get rid of gimmick, by all means no, it creates the meta and often spices up the game, but remove heroes who mindlessly spread hexes, plant spirits, and maintain enchants with immediate reaction. although their 'stupid-factor' allows them to make small micros errors, their responsiveness in execution is far beyond most players--given a general usage bar heroes will do everything right every time.

meta has always created groups that are easy to form and easy to run, there is no justification for there to be even one hero to take a person's spot: there is always a group looking for someone. it discourages team play for those using them and those fighting them.

Zuranthium · Sep 01, 2007, 12:30 AM // 00:30

I think allowing 1 Hero on a team is fine, for those times when someone suddenly has an internet problem or an emergency and there's no time to call for a guest. Past that, no.

~Z

Legendary Battousai · Sep 01, 2007, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

Well I think it's actually time to adress this point and give every reader here a clearer image. So why don't we do this with pictures?

The first screenshot(VekkPorts) here is actually a bottom arrowkey away from porting my new best friend Vekk. If you look at the compass there is a huge line of distance compared to him and myself. Remember all those gvg's where someone was snared behind? Probably the exact same distance Vekk is right now? And your ally was killed? Maybe because it was his own fault, or you had no healer, whatever the reason may be.

Well this is the funny thing with heroes and teleporters that I found out during our famous match. That it is near broken. Why should you have the range of a free deaths retreat because you are a hero? Do you not understand the implications of this? You can actually Rambo 3 heroes into enemy NPC's the second too much pressure is applied you only have to make 1/3 the distance to the teleporter to get out of harms way.

So people may say atm, "Big Woop Swift, what's the problem anyway?"

I'll explain.

The two guild halls with this ability at the moment are Jade Isle and Nomad's Isle. Jade this problem can be more relevant.

In Jade isle you can avoid over 3/4 of the coral damage if you are a hero, real player you cannot.
With either guild hall snares are near meaningless on you, the person controlling the heroes only needs to camp the teleporter.
Your split classes can be more offensive then normal, giving easy huge NPC advantage with no skill.

From fighting this personally, Talkhora was even KNOCKED DOWN and at 15-20% health but disapeared instantly approximately 8-9 times that entire match. Do you know the amount of death pentaly she avoided for being a hero? Along with other heroes? Your split could have been completely DP'ed out. Do you not understand the implications this causes?

Battousai you do not deserve any champ points for this, if I had it my way I would call this huge exploitation and nail you like those people that duped 10,000 ambraces. Saying you guested with Axiom only gets you a few cookies, high references doesn't avoid true statements.

Things like this keep slipping, which makes me wonder alot about the balance alot of us still seek in this game. In all honesty I sometimes feel this forum is just a showroom where we try to think of a good and balanced game. Then people like you show up to make it look like a prom. There are over 1000 skills you are correct, but name me off the top of your head how many skills you have never used or used once and refuse to look at again? How many skills do you see on obs mode? We have a restriction, and there is no problem with that, but even when some skills are mathematically just better then others, and combine that with non-human reaction and skill, I am certain the general users of this game can agree to the fact that there are bigger fish to fry.

You even narrowly pointed out a problem with heroes and flagging. I tested that out as well, and you are correct, but it's easily avoided. In my opinion it's easier to avoid then using Frenzy and Healing Signet at the same point in time. (Oh Btw Izzy was caught doing this as well)

So let's see if Izzy can teleport a whole aggro circle away without any skills likewise, I am pretty certain no one here can.

If ANet thinks Recall was bad, check this out.

Look at the distance and the NPC's you can kill without consequence.

Here are the original screenshots as well so people don't think otherwise.

I have a lot of respect for you for spending so much time with this, but please, don't attack me. Out of the three champ points the guild has gotten so far, only 1 was with running heroes. If I didn't deserve that one point, who cares, I still have more champ points than you. But this shit can be saved for another time...

1: Only twice did using the teleporter save someone's life in that game - the rest of the time, Tahlkora was at nearly full energy, and even though someone was snared - be it human, he would have lived, or kited to the point they would not have been in the position to be snared or KD'd.

2: Do you think the range the hero will teleport is unfair? I think its pretty fair to be honest, its hard to get it much closer because you always run in front of your heroes, and having to stand still and wait 3 seconds is quite a pain just to teleport. Not only this, but they overextend like a bitch.

3: Do you think you can run my heroway and get champ points right off the bat? I honestly think it would be impossible for anyone to do this, thus, it takes some amount of skill and control over the game in order to do, along with extensive split tactic knowledge and coordination. I'd completely agree if someone could run my build, beat top guilds and win ATs like I have in just a few days - its an actual build that requires skill.
On the other hand though, the "Heroway" or N/Rt heroes I agree are dumb and degrade PvP. They are too rampant, require no skill or microing to be beyond decent, and are gimmicy. Thus I still think this has more to do with build than the fact that a hero is running it.

4: The argument "Heroes destroy the spirit of the game" is really just a scapegoat for saying "Heroway is overpowered, and we fail to cope". Honestly, nobody has ever said Henchmen were a problem or destroy the almighty spirit of PvP in their existence in the game since the start. The only difference (this feels repetitive) between heroes and henchmen are BUILD.

nooboguy · Sep 01, 2007, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I'm a casual GVGer and HA player and I started reading this thread with the opinion that 1 to 2 Heroes is OK in non-tournament play. My argument was the same that has been used before - allows more people to play and experiment. However, after having read the whole thread I have changed my mind. It seems that heroes are more used as a specific exploit for very specific builds than for allowing more people to participate. It's true that heroes are predictable and can be countered, but where's the attraction in that? Precisely because I am a casual player I really do not want to spend time learning how to counter predictable hero behavior. I have a hard enough time and more fun learning to counter the unpredictable human players.

For experimentation and learning a limited amount of heroes could continue to be allowed in unranked games, and for the odd ranked game emergency clean up the Hench bars a bit so that they are not completely worthless.

Legendary Battousai · Sep 01, 2007, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by nooboguy

I have a hard enough time and more fun learning to counter the unpredictable human players.

Humans are predictable.

Servant of Kali · Sep 01, 2007, 09:06 AM // 09:06

I Dont Want To Play Zaishen Challenge!

novawhiz · Sep 01, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

PvP = Player verse Player not Player and some NCP's verse a Player and some NPC's.

Enuff said.

Legendary Shiz · Sep 01, 2007, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by novawhiz

PvP = Player verse Player not Player and some NCP's verse a Player and some NPC's.

Enuff said.

Bad logic, though I understand where you're coming from.

Using your logic that means no Archers, no Knights, no Bodyguards, no GL ect.

NPCs are a vital part of PvP.

Mirage Isnt Emo · Sep 01, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Give a good reason why hero's really hurt pvp? I honestly never play against heroway because not many people at a top level even run it. HA is not competitive pvp, and there are far more broken builds then it in HA. The monthly tourneys are the only tourneys that are meaningful, and them being restricted to 2 makes it harder to run. You may not feel better for beating heroway, but what is wrong with getting rating? If you are losing in an AT to a team that is running heroway, that may be another thing, but playing ladder that -2 can be made up by any scrub team. High end pvp is not ruined by heroway, only low end pvp is (rank 500+ guilds)

BlackEagle · Sep 01, 2007, 11:07 PM // 23:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

Give a good reason why hero's really hurt pvp? I honestly never play against heroway because not many people at a top level even run it. HA is not competitive pvp, and there are far more broken builds then it in HA. The monthly tourneys are the only tourneys that are meaningful, and them being restricted to 2 makes it harder to run. You may not feel better for beating heroway, but what is wrong with getting rating? If you are losing in an AT to a team that is running heroway, that may be another thing, but playing ladder that -2 can be made up by any scrub team. High end pvp is not ruined by heroway, only low end pvp is (rank 500+ guilds)

You haven't given a good reason to keep it other than you want to be able to play with heroes, and people want to play with heroes so it gets more people into gvg.

Basically, all the things you say are good about heroes are the same about henchman (especially if they had semi decent bars) whereas henchman can't be abused. As I said, the ideal way to solve it is to make it so that heroes are ridiculously good at some things but terrible at others, but it really isn't possible, so the only solution is banning them all together.

Servant of Kali · Sep 01, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Obviously the Hero Battles, entire PvE, and Zaishen Challenge are not enough for people who love playing with AI against AI.

So I suggest give them Jade Quarry arena. Make it so people can take Heroes in. It's not like anyone plays that arena so no harm done.

This game is getting infested with AI. Soon the monthly GvG tournaments will be Heroes vs Heroes exclusively. The Hero AI will be improved so they can play a whole GvG match alone, without any input from the player.

KebabVan · Sep 02, 2007, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage Isnt Emo

Give a good reason why hero's really hurt pvp? I honestly never play against heroway because not many people at a top level even run it. HA is not competitive pvp, and there are far more broken builds then it in HA. The monthly tourneys are the only tourneys that are meaningful, and them being restricted to 2 makes it harder to run. You may not feel better for beating heroway, but what is wrong with getting rating? If you are losing in an AT to a team that is running heroway, that may be another thing, but playing ladder that -2 can be made up by any scrub team. High end pvp is not ruined by heroway, only low end pvp is (rank 500+ guilds)

Agreed and it dosnt affect me either, but the majority of pvp players are in rank 500+ guilds. why should the worse/more casual players have less fun just because it doesnt affect the higher end of gvg?

Legendary Battousai · Sep 02, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by KebabVan

Agreed and it dosnt affect me either, but the majority of pvp players are in rank 500+ guilds. why should the worse/more casual players have less fun just because it doesnt affect the higher end of gvg?

is it our fault that your guild is bad and top guilds are good?

No

So don't blame heroes for your bad play, learn to be like top guilds and become one - you don't have to be an non-casual player to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackEagle

You haven't given a good reason to keep it other than you want to be able to play with heroes, and people want to play with heroes so it gets more people into gvg.

Good enough for me

wolfy3455 · Sep 02, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shmanka

From fighting this personally, Talkhora was even KNOCKED DOWN and at 15-20% health but disapeared instantly approximately 8-9 times that entire match. Do you know the amount of death pentaly she avoided for being a hero? Along with other heroes? Your split could have been completely DP'ed out. Do you not understand the implications this causes?

It does against good teams. The other side of heroes and teleporters is that if you snare the person, you essentially get four kills where you should have gotten one. You can flag the heroes through the teleporter but then you end up with the pita side of heroes and teleporters which a good team will use to get the kills anyway.

Quote:

Battousai you do not deserve any champ points for this, if I had it my way I would call this huge exploitation and nail you like those people that duped 10,000 ambraces. Saying you guested with Axiom only gets you a few cookies, high references doesn't avoid true statements.

If I had my way I'd nail people that run two bsurges, wards, a clumsiness spammer, and an aegis chain. I think you missed the point. if he was name dropping there's a few more people he could have used. The point was that a good player can outplay a hero on the bars we run.

By the way, heroes, recall, or real players with decent communication, you will almost never kill a split on Nomads by collapsing through the front door unless they are in a situation where theyre willing to take deaths (in which case you've already screwed up pretty badly) or you have a way to keep them snared until your response gets back.

EDIT: I actually think heroes should be banned or at least further limited. I don't have a problem with them personally, but anything that hurts mid-low level play is still a problem. Without competitive play in those areas, theres no new blood seeping into high level.

Servant of Kali · Sep 02, 2007, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battousai

So don't blame heroes for your bad play, learn to be like top guilds and become one - you don't have to be an non-casual player to do that.

OK, let's see. Translated to PvE terms (to better illustrate the point), you're saying that it would be OK if Anet adjusted difficulty of PvE to suit 1% of best PvErs, and the fact that 70%+ PvErs need 5 attempts to pass 1 mission is OK because no one forces them to be casual PvErs .. they could study the game and improve and then they'd be able to do missions easily.

Do you have any idea how much rage would that cause? I mean, people were ragequitting the game for Thunderhead Keep, and it wasn't a difficult mission at all, just a bit longer. People were raging for Vizunah even though one could do it with henchies on the other side, and henchies in ones own team. So what would happen is missions were made 3x stronger, to suit 1% of very experienced PvErs? Oh wow, you don't have to be a genius to find that out.

I find this whole concept amazing.. when we translate something to PvE terms everyone knows what sounds good and what not. But suddenly in PvP everything is in abstract level.

Anyway I'm done with this whole discussion, pretty much had it, so I uninstalled the game. I bought the game for PvP, and I can't name a single arena now that's enjoyable to PvP in. Random Arena is plagued by people who quit as soon as there's no monk as well as being plagued by wammo-type players so it's too much of a stress to be enjoyable. Fort Aspenwood is growing leechers like potatoes and no one really cares. HA is grindfest and never liked it. Hero Battles is a joke. GvG was nice but now Heroes migrated from HA here, and it's sick. As if Discord spike wasn't enough to prove the point...