Curse

Yue · Nov 13, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

You're dumb. the game has moved away from balanced and into imbalanced crap. Sin splits and heroway (two of the most broken aspects of the game), have been ridiculously buffed. With lod, teams can play rawrspike as much as they want, but pressure team will still roll them. As overpowered as LoD was, it was also the largest single point of failure. That in itself is extremely easy to exploit, and made it balanced. A skill can be overpowered, but that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.

Cirian · Nov 13, 2007, 01:31 AM // 01:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

As overpowered as LoD was, it was also the largest single point of failure. That in itself is extremely easy to exploit, and made it balanced. A skill can be overpowered, but that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.

I don't think that's balanced. I think if the game was balanced you'd have maybe half a dozen equally good points of failure to exploit, and you'd be playing mind games with the opponent with which one each of you were going for at any given moment.

With LoD being both overpowered and the single biggest point of weakness, it forces your hand and that's bad.

Snow Bunny · Nov 13, 2007, 03:58 AM // 03:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

With LoD being both overpowered and the single biggest point of weakness, it forces your hand and that's bad.

LoD allowed teams to survive without blowing up.

Now we're running eprod and woh?

Lol wut?

Bankai · Nov 13, 2007, 07:43 AM // 07:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

You're dumb. the game has moved away from balanced and into imbalanced crap. Sin splits and heroway (two of the most broken aspects of the game), have been ridiculously buffed. With lod, teams can play rawrspike as much as they want, but pressure team will still roll them. As overpowered as LoD was, it was also the largest single point of failure. That in itself is extremely easy to exploit, and made it balanced. A skill can be overpowered, but that doesn't mean it's imbalanced.

I haven't fought Sin splits and Heroway yet.

Which at least means something.

shoogi · Nov 13, 2007, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I am kinda disappointed that Smiting Prayers, which I always found an interesting and attractive attribue, is still a serious candidate for the worst attribute in the game.
Any smiting skills that were ever used in pvp got nerfed pretty quickly (Balth aura, zealots fire, somw). The only smiting skill used in pvp atm is balth spirit (and that's too with 0 points in smiting).
Just look at the elites- Ray of judgement and Balthazar's Pendulum are both strong candidates for the worst elite in the game, word of censure sucks too, defender's zeal can find some possible use but it doesn't, shield of judgement is useless in pvp and signet of judgement is the only elite that worths an abbreviation here but it is also pretty weak.
Bah, it's not like any dev is going to read this so why do I bother.

Anyway, the Healer's Boon update is horrible. Yay! another skill like RaO and Iway to make PvP even worse!

IMMORTAlMITCH · Nov 13, 2007, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

Anyway, the Healer's Boon update is horrible. Yay! another skill like RaO and Iway to make PvP even worse!

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is it even remotely similar to those skills?

Nothing wrong with Healer's Boon, it's easy enough to counter.

Bankai · Nov 13, 2007, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Smiting prayers got nerfed because the idea of healers also having the ability to deal lots of damage is retarded.

Smiter's boon is still kind of good for splits and stuff, because the skills that are being used aren't flawed. They're all monk skills. They remove conditions, remove hexes and protect you. That's what a monk skill should be. A skill like spear of light is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing retarded.

Riotgear · Nov 13, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

The problem with smiting is that it attempts to protect allies by punishing those attacking them, except doing tiny packets of damage isn't very good at discouraging them.

Wasteland Squidget · Nov 13, 2007, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Smiting prayers got nerfed because the idea of healers also having the ability to deal lots of damage is retarded.

You mean like modern ritualists, who carry a few heal and prot skills and deal damage through splinter weapon?

There's nothing inherently wrong with a template that can play offensively when necessary, then go into healing mode. Such templates tend to be strong in split situations without losing that much flagstand power, which makes them an ideal fit for balanced builds.

Smiting was nerfed because Izzy doesn't like the mechanic. He's stated that multiple times. There isn't any reason why a template like that can't work - we're already seeing it work in the current meta.

Bankai · Nov 13, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Those templates aren't bad indeed. However, smiting skills like Spear of Light give the opportunity to get teams like Ritspike and Smiteball. Have awesome defense with a spike every X seconds. And that's bad.

Yichi · Nov 13, 2007, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoogi

The only smiting skill used in pvp atm is balth spirit (and that's too with 0 points in smiting).

And in what form of PvP is this used besides maybe alliance battles which is known for bringing utter and horrid crap?

Mysterial · Nov 13, 2007, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

You mean like modern ritualists, who carry a few heal and prot skills and deal damage through splinter weapon?

If smiters ever worked like that, it'd be great. But smiters largely worked off of supplying energy to Zealot's Fire, allowing them to do both the prot and the damage simultaneously. It's the not needing to choose one or the other, the piggybacking of damage onto their melee while simultaneously making them extremely hard to kill, that was the problem.

Andrew Patrick · Nov 13, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

There will be some additional tweaks very soon. I know a few of them directly address some of the concerns you are presenting.

Sinful Doom · Nov 13, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Patrick

There will be some additional tweaks very soon. I know a few of them directly address some of the concerns you are presenting.

Deadly Paradox, trees, shadowstepping, sinspike, EXCELLENT, looking forward to the update.

Sab · Nov 13, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

+ Warmongers, and maybe an actual nerf to spiritway in HA. Good to see a follow-up update to patch up what's left (hopefully).

shoogi · Nov 13, 2007, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is it even remotely similar to those skills?

Nothing wrong with Healer's Boon, it's easy enough to counter.

Healer's Boon, RaO and so on are a similiar mechanic. A stance/ench/whatever that simply make you better. Use your normal skills in a normal manner, just with better conditions. No player skill required. Those skills are a bad thing because they lower the level of players, and don't teach new players, who naturally find them easy to use, how to play better. PvP should be challenging and hard to master and skills like the above cause the opposite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MistressYichi

And in what form of PvP is this used besides maybe alliance battles which is known for bringing utter and horrid crap?

Monks in RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Smiting prayers got nerfed because the idea of healers also having the ability to deal lots of damage is retarded.

And why is it retarded? What's wrong with hybrid builds? What do we see on flag runners? The genius of GW is that there is no "This char is the melee basher; This is the mage damage dealer; This is the archer" etc. Almost every profession can find different uses, Assassins being the exception. I would like to see that diversity on Monks too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

If smiters ever worked like that, it'd be great. But smiters largely worked off of supplying energy to Zealot's Fire, allowing them to do both the prot and the damage simultaneously. It's the not needing to choose one or the other, the piggybacking of damage onto their melee while simultaneously making them extremely hard to kill, that was the problem.

Zealot's Fire was an overpowered skill that got nerfed. There are 30 other skills in that attribute.
To conclude, I'm not saying that the worst imbalance in the game is Smiting being too weak. I also agree with the people saying that the policy of "nerf the used skills, buff the non-used skills" is stupid. However there is a difference between a single non-used skill and an entirely non-used attribute. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Smiting is the only attribute in the game that isn't used by anyone except people that try something in RA and find that it sucks so they give up. I just don't like the idea of an attribute being nothing more than a waste of room on the priest of balthazar.

Bankai · Nov 13, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

And why is it retarded? What's wrong with hybrid builds? What do we see on flag runners? The genius of GW is that there is no "This char is the melee basher; This is the mage damage dealer; This is the archer" etc. Almost every profession can find different uses, Assassins being the exception. I would like to see that diversity on Monks too.

Actually, I'm not talking about those. I was actually talking about stuff like Smiteball, in which you have a group of bunched up monks that smite. That's gay.

moriz · Nov 13, 2007, 07:46 PM // 19:46

according to the thread on riverside, there will be another skill update later today.

let's hope it doesn't kill the game even more.

shoogi · Nov 13, 2007, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

Actually, I'm not talking about those. I was actually talking about stuff like Smiteball, in which you have a group of bunched up monks that smite. That's gay.

Agreed. Again, I agree with you all that the previous uses of smiting (somw, smite balls, zf) were lame. I just think that it got nerfed too violently and without anything else to be an alternative given. For example, LoD got murdered in the last update but Anet offered an alternative by boosting Heal Party. That's an important part of skill balancing.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 13, 2007, 11:57 PM // 23:57

I dunno about you, but I've seen a couple smiter builds running around recently. Usually they revolve around some sort of melee buff (strength of honor, judge's insight) and smite hex/smite condition. They're good at what they do, namely, doing some support healing through smiter's boon and buffing melee damage while keeping them clean (and some AoE on the side).