Curse

Iotan · Feb 07, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

You are talking about a completely different mechanic based on different intentions, not a change to the current one.

Yep.

But based on what I've seen with ANet they usually like to keep their ideas alive in some way in the game, and this would keep a +% damage modifier while not making it ridiculously based on a single NPC. There wouldn't be a huge swing based on NPC farming and would bring more significance to a beneficial game mechanic.

I don't know if having a +% damage to players at VoD is a good idea in the first place, but I see fewer flaws with this idea than in what ViO is now.

Syntonic · Feb 07, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

I don't think ViO is set in stone. I hope they do drop that part of it. It seems like it was a knee jerk reaction to the comments that NPCs matter more than players. Honestly, if the damage buffs were simply to the base damage and not affect + skill damage, I'm not sure if it would be all that bad. I do wonder at how the numbers work out - does it add more damage to your base weapon before the customization bonus and mods? Regardless, it should be relatively minor if at all.

I can't say I can disagree with Ensign or anything considering the fact that he's far more experienced in this line of things but wasn't the problem with blockweb and the previous meta before the "domination" of sineptitude was that there really wasn't much ground being lossed or gained regardless? There wasn't much movement at all because there wasn't any reason to. You had two brick walls pushing up against each other constantly till one started budging. There was hardly any incentive to split since that would only make you weaker at the stand and your npcs were walking dead anyway. I'm not sure how this can be considered an interesting dynamic between splitting and staying at the flagstand because a dedicated split normally happened as a last ditch effort when the flagstand was lost to maybe make something happen so they could regain the flagstand. It didn't seem like at the time to be a viable tactic to win unless the opponent ignored it and you could gank the guild lord.

I realize the most of the issue was simply that archers could be farmed very effectively at VoD and thus the need for a split was superfluous. In the past, at LoD stage and before rit/d and splinter farming took place, splitting was still treated very similarly as during the time of the blockweb meta. I suppose you can attribute it to mind blast eles and a few AoE damage in the past but I remember water eles and blind bot being more in play without AoE damage. Don't get me wrong - the latest changes have been a swing in the total opposite direction and should be toned down but if any of the higher ranked gvg members could offer some insight, it'd be much appreciated.

tl;dr - I don't think the additional damage for the NPCs is a completely terribad idea as long as it is in moderation but I'm still a non-top100 scrub that doesn't know anything.

xhappy feetx · Feb 07, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

You are talking about a completely different mechanic based on different intentions, not a change to the current one.

Having it continuously update would again bring NPC farming back as a viable tactic. Wait till VoD, nuke all of their NPCs, get the damage bonus. To be valuable it needs to be based solely on the count when VoD hits.

Having it on a per NPC basis is also silly, as it will be largely meaningless. It would need to be capped at a reasonable number (say 15%), so even if it was 2% per NPC you would get the entire bonus in most situations.

The best solution is a 3% bonus per exta NPC you have over the opponent, with a 15% cap. You would need to have 5 more (a meaningful number) to get the bonus, but it would still be worth trying to knock a few off during the game to get that edge or even things out. It needs to calculate at VoD and not change after.

I guess your right even though it promotes split play extremely, but VoD has to be moved back to 20:00/24:00 instead of the 18:00/20:00.....

Cirian · Feb 07, 2008, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But all of this has created a much more glaring, serious problem with GvG.

It has broken the balance between the value of the flagstand, and the value of NPCs.

Simply put, the changes in VoD have shifted the primary focus of the game from capping the watchtower and controlling the ground around it, to protecting and saving your NPCs at all costs.

Ensign's comments made me think about tying the NPC damage bonus at VoD to the average Morale of your team, and ditching the other scheme. What I'd like is for the flagstand and NPC count to re-enforce each other, so that you have to manage both resources.

My idea at VoD is to take your average team Morale and add a flat +10% bonus in addition, so a team with no deaths and no boosts will simply have a 10% damage bonus to NPCs at VoD. The best bonus you could have under this system is +20% for a Morale Boost and no deaths, while the worst penalty you could have is -50% for a full team on 60%DP.

Thus, your performance at controlling the flagstand will have an effect on each NPC you have kept alive. Failing at one will give you either a larger force of weak NPCs or a smaller force of strong NPCs. Failing at both will give you a small force of weak NPCs.

Scoring player kills is also rewarded because by reducing the opponent's average team Morale, you apply a damage penalty to their NPCs at VoD. Taking risks for a Morale Boost (such as sacrificing a player in exchange for a boost) is also rewarded at VoD by higher average team Morale.

What I like about this is that the NPCs' power mirrors the Morale of their human team, the human team is always of central importance, and a balance has to be struck between the base and the flagstand.

Shuuda · Feb 07, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cass

In general: Interrupting was/is NOT the "strongest or most important" aspect of a dom mes build. It is however _strong_, and taking it away weakens the whole bar to such an extent that the remaining skills (which are also important) are possibly not enough to justify taking a dom mes in the first place.

Bold part: Total nonsense. Think about what you claim there.

I'm claim that Interrupting is more about relfex rather than thinking, you just wait till an interruptable spell pops up and bam. It is not that different to how healing is just relfexing to red bar going down as opposed to Pre protting.

plasmasword · Feb 07, 2008, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Is boon prot(OoB) good now since its +17 nrg ?

Kanishka · Feb 07, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Lets face it, if Mesmers rely 50% of all shutdown on an interruption, then there is clearly a problem. Interrupting shouldn't be the strongest or most important aspect of a build, since it take less skill and is less interesting than most other forms of shutdown. Im glad A-net nerfed this skill, but I do wish they could have improved some of the none interruption based E-denial, or just promote other kinds of shutdown in general.

They just removed one option from Mesmers' arsenal. That's bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Lol, and who in this topic gives that much of a shit? PvE is piss easy man.

I certainly don't give a damn about PvE, but the point is: what's Mesmer's role in GW? Has it the same space (i.e. versatility, usability) as the other professions? I see that space decreasing.

Kanishka · Feb 07, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

I'm claim that Interrupting is more about relfex rather than thinking, you just wait till an interruptable spell pops up and bam. It is not that different to how healing is just relfexing to red bar going down as opposed to Pre protting.

No, it's more than that. You have to learn to anticipate the casting of some skills that are otherwise very difficult (or impossible, due to your ping) to interrupt. Most of all, you have to carefully chose what to interrupt and what not to; it's a bit easier with a Ranger (with Expertise you have much cheaper interrupts, Mesmers must be savy in managing their mana), but anyway becoming a good interrupter is very hard.

Shuuda · Feb 07, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanishka

No, it's more than that. You have to learn to anticipate the casting of some skills that are otherwise very difficult (or impossible, due to your ping) to interrupt. Most of all, you have to carefully chose what to interrupt and what not to; it's a bit easier with a Ranger (with Expertise you have much cheaper interrupts, Mesmers must be savy in managing their mana), but anyway becoming a good interrupter is very hard.

-High Ping is not an excuse to say Interrupting takes THAT much skill, it just means it's a twitching game.

-Diversion is better than simply interrupting as it takes the skill you hit out of the battle for a good while, them interrupts are used because of their strong secondary effect alongside their interruption (Power Leak= Edenial, Power Drain= Energy gain)

- It's harder for a ranger because of being blocked (unless your using Magebroken shot(I know it's not too broken anymore, I just wanted to use that)) as well as being Obstructed and blinded (even if you are using Mending touch it's still annoying).

Kaon · Feb 07, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

I dont know if any of you noticed it yet, but they nerfed powerleak, so interrupting doesnt really have that much emphasis anymore.

Ensign · Feb 07, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The best solution is a 3% bonus per exta NPC you have over the opponent, with a 15% cap.

What is this 'solution' trying to solve, and why is it better than not having it at all?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

but wasn't the problem with blockweb and the previous meta before the "domination" of sineptitude was that there really wasn't much ground being lossed or gained regardless?

The state of skill balance was horrid and every team that wanted to fight 8v8 for more than a minute or two needed to either bring a Motigon, or a Healer's Boon Monk babysat by a very defensive midline to do so. Fitting a more involved split than the standard Warrior / Ranger / Runner set required huge sacrifices on your team's 8v8 power. So no of course splitting wasn't that common; the builds that could do it were much weaker 8v8, at VoD, and the advantages they got would just be farmed by Splinter Weapon anyway.

The broken part of VoD was the archerballs being farmed. That was just fixed. Nothing else about VoD was particularly bad; it was a skill problem after that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Syntonic

In the past, at LoD stage and before rit/d and splinter farming took place, splitting was still treated very similarly as during the time of the blockweb meta.

That was the era when vD won two monthlies in a row. They balled up and killed your archers with a Dervish stacked with the old Shield of Deflection. The big advantage the 8v8 teams boasted was the old BSurge / Warders, paired with the old SoD on anyone who left that defensive web. It was a slightly different problem with the same symptoms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

What I'd like is for the flagstand and NPC count to re-enforce each other, so that you have to manage both resources.

Why is this better than a VoD without that mechanic, where morale and NPCs are both essential resources that are worthwhile on their own merit instead of creating a multiplicative advantage to polarize VoD even more?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanishka

but the point is: what's Mesmer's role in GW?

Right now? Diversion spam and Enchanter's Conundrum spike.

Theli · Feb 07, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Right now? Diversion spam and Enchanter's Conundrum spike.

and.. more gale spam, well if u find an interrupt to replace pleak.

The Way Out · Feb 07, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheOneMephisto

Monks don't use smoke powder, and guardian is a fine skill.

There are a lot of parts about this update that make no sense, but most of them have already been covered. Overall, I'm interested in seeing what happens next mainly, the effects of increased party-healing and the new VoD (again) will be interesting to watch at the least and hopefully will be in the right direction. And killing ineptitude/clumsiness was good, though I think sins still might need a hit.

And I wonder how effective the spreading out actually is, as most people will probably still find a way to exploit it as always.

Plus, it is not like guardian can't be interrupted. However, if enough people cry about it, the nerf hammer will come out. I didn't think LoD had any utility left in it, and it got nerfed further. hehe... I should start whining about skills I see other people pwn me with and just post away... maybe that is a tactic I have yet to use to my best interest.

Shuuda · Feb 07, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Them 1E skills are also an Indirect buff to Vampiric Spirit, Spamming Dark pact an' shit.

Frantic-Sheep · Feb 07, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

gogogo aura of the lich bombers, so hilarious to play.

So many people crying about pleak.. as playing monk I'm all too glad its nerfed ghehe. Seriously though, it's been destroyed to see how the game does without it. I'm sure there are enough other options to take that are good as well

adept or die? ;p

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The best solution is a 3% bonus per exta NPC you have over the opponent, with a 15% cap. You would need to have 5 more (a meaningful number) to get the bonus, but it would still be worth trying to knock a few off during the game to get that edge or even things out. It needs to calculate at VoD and not change after.

I pretty much like that one

. (or just removing it again.. gearing it towards players again instead of NPC's). Also as people described earlier here.. a 20:00-24:00 vod would be better I think with these rules.

Kaon · Feb 07, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Powerlock is useless. It's not an "additional" recharge like dshot. Gay.

erk · Feb 07, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

How it has Mystically not moved to Mysticism already where it belongs.

Mystic regen is used by a LOT of */D secondaries, the diversity it fuels is too valuable to shut down. I still think access to 9pips of semi-permanent heal on a non Dervish is too high for just an 8 attribute point investment in Earth Prayers. If it required 12 points then people would hesitate to commit that many, the alternative would be to use 4-5 enchants which gets costly to maintain. The 3 enchant limit helps a little, but I bet the average /D using it was no more than 3 enchants before the nerf, so they noticed no difference.

On the subject of the 1 energy blood skills possibly resulting in more touch Rangers, most touchies run 14-15 in expertise, so spamable skills like Blood of the Aggressor were already only costing 2 energy with only half the sac of Wallow's Bite, and a chance to life steal.

The obvious use for these 1 energy skills is with Aura of the Lich which will knock 75% off the sacrifice.

Also it could be pitched at other professions who couldn't afford the energy until now to fuel touch skills like a Ranger can, and perhaps have some solid health regen. eg. */D with Mystic, or */Mo with Mending (lol).

Skye Marin · Feb 08, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

On the subject of the 1 energy blood skills possibly resulting in more touch Rangers, most touchies run 14-15 in expertise, so spamable skills like Blood of the Aggressor were already only costing 2 energy with only half the sac of Wallow's Bite, and a chance to life steal.

Blood of the Aggressor isn't affected by Expertise, and no toucher worth his weight uses Wallow's Bite because it triggers prot, unlike Vamp Touch and Vamp Bite.

The big buff to Touch Rangers is Offering of Blood, which now nets 4 more energy per use every 15 seconds. That's almost a pip.

ChopChop · Feb 08, 2008, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote: