Curse

God_Hand · Jun 06, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

You cant block magebane...

Oh yeah! But, it's an ELITE. Even so, you can block D-shot & Savage like the day is long if you RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO Guardian on yourself, which is really amusing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TironPlyth

If you were to run Magebane then you almost always would have three interrupts on your bar, so a marginal increase in recharge would be largely inconsequential if you know what you're doing.

This.

lutz · Jun 06, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by TironPlyth

If you were to run Magebane then you almost always would have three interrupts on your bar, so a marginal increase in recharge would be largely inconsequential if you know what you're doing.

Wait, what? You clearly haven't played much high-end PvP.
Magebane Rangers substitute Savage for Magebane.

urania · Jun 07, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

A Magebane never runs 3 rupts, unless they wanna keep sigs down long enough. D shot and Magebane is all a good ranger needs.

jaximus · Jun 07, 2009, 03:49 PM // 15:49

interrupts are healthy for the game. they require active responsive play and field awareness. thats a reason that a lot of people cant play an effective ranger at a high level. ranger interrupts have helped to keep the game in check for so very long. the seemingly 'spammable nature' of savage shot and magebane on paper look very powerful, but when you play with them (i run the magebane template a lot) you realize quickly that you cant just fire them off at every skill you see and think youll win matches. d shot is saved for the really critical skills to keep them out of the match as long as possible. sav/magebane are sometimes used to hasten the spread of poison, therefore not interuping unless you are lucky. rangers along with mesmers to an extent, and im hesitant to include mesmers with the fire and forget mantrad nature that is currently dominant, have helped keep the game from turning into a hex overload meta. when playing a ranger you need to keenly be aware of recharge times of your interrupts and the recharge times of the skills you need to interrupt. you try to keep one interrupt ready to go as much as you can, so you dont watch a very important skill get casted right in front of you with no way to stop it.

also, when considering ranger interrupts, you must realize that a ranger is restricted to a recurve bow, for the low flight time/arc size. this gives the ranger a slightly slower refire time (the reason rangers used timered attacks to spread poison) and the arc sometimes inhibits through obstruction. needling shot is currently used as the intermittent attack in the quick poison spread because of its timer. this however, has a damage limit (balance) and in in the marksmanship attribute, which is part of a triple spec for rangers, so ~10. to 'spam' sav/magebane rangers run 14 expertise to counter the energy cost, which lowers the attribute spread for marks + wild for apply/natty.

rangers promote healthy play for both sides. a good rangers knows where to stand in battle to reach the best location and bring as many targets in range as possible while also staying in a safe location. this proactive play is good for the game. arrows, aside from magebane can be blocked. but what people seem to ignore, is that they can be obstructed. if you stand and fire away skills on recharge in front of a ranger, you deserve to be interrupted. you can and should use the topography of the map in your advantage, again, proactive play. heres a few hints. dont stand near a hill where a ranger can gain the height advantage, use flagstands, walls, ramps, and pillars to your advantage. also range is a factor. the farther you are away from the ranger, the longer the flight time and lower the chance of being interrupted. if youre being interrupted a lot by a ranger, chances are you are playing a caster, and aside from a few spells that dont see much play, you dont need line of sight, rangers do. this is again a balanced mechanic.

i play ranger a lot, so i may be slightly biased, but proactive play is always better for a game than passive play. with all of the power creep and high damage low recharge spells in the game and the use of casting sets, the ranger arsenal is not overpowered at all. there are also different servers/internet connection speeds that all play a role into interruption.

if a ranger is hurting you that badly, make them a priority target, spike him after they use apply while natty isnt recharge, chances are hes pushed up a bit to get in range of your people. and remember, his defensive skill, natty, ends if his monks try to help him ; )

Tearz1993 · Jun 07, 2009, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Nobody who has a clue runs three interrupts on a magebane bar...

lutz · Jun 07, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

interrupts are healthy for the game. they require active responsive play and field awareness. thats a reason that a lot of people cant play an effective ranger at a high level. ranger interrupts have helped to keep the game in check for so very long. the seemingly 'spammable nature' of savage shot and magebane on paper look very powerful, but when you play with them (i run the magebane template a lot) you realize quickly that you cant just fire them off at every skill you see and think youll win matches. d shot is saved for the really critical skills to keep them out of the match as long as possible. sav/magebane are sometimes used to hasten the spread of poison, therefore not interuping unless you are lucky. rangers along with mesmers to an extent, and im hesitant to include mesmers with the fire and forget mantrad nature that is currently dominant, have helped keep the game from turning into a hex overload meta. when playing a ranger you need to keenly be aware of recharge times of your interrupts and the recharge times of the skills you need to interrupt. you try to keep one interrupt ready to go as much as you can, so you dont watch a very important skill get casted right in front of you with no way to stop it.

also, when considering ranger interrupts, you must realize that a ranger is restricted to a recurve bow, for the low flight time/arc size. this gives the ranger a slightly slower refire time (the reason rangers used timered attacks to spread poison) and the arc sometimes inhibits through obstruction. needling shot is currently used as the intermittent attack in the quick poison spread because of its timer. this however, has a damage limit (balance) and in in the marksmanship attribute, which is part of a triple spec for rangers, so ~10. to 'spam' sav/magebane rangers run 14 expertise to counter the energy cost, which lowers the attribute spread for marks + wild for apply/natty.

rangers promote healthy play for both sides. a good rangers knows where to stand in battle to reach the best location and bring as many targets in range as possible while also staying in a safe location. this proactive play is good for the game. arrows, aside from magebane can be blocked. but what people seem to ignore, is that they can be obstructed. if you stand and fire away skills on recharge in front of a ranger, you deserve to be interrupted. you can and should use the topography of the map in your advantage, again, proactive play. heres a few hints. dont stand near a hill where a ranger can gain the height advantage, use flagstands, walls, ramps, and pillars to your advantage. also range is a factor. the farther you are away from the ranger, the longer the flight time and lower the chance of being interrupted. if youre being interrupted a lot by a ranger, chances are you are playing a caster, and aside from a few spells that dont see much play, you dont need line of sight, rangers do. this is again a balanced mechanic.

i play ranger a lot, so i may be slightly biased, but proactive play is always better for a game than passive play. with all of the power creep and high damage low recharge spells in the game and the use of casting sets, the ranger arsenal is not overpowered at all. there are also different servers/internet connection speeds that all play a role into interruption.

if a ranger is hurting you that badly, make them a priority target, spike him after they use apply while natty isnt recharge, chances are hes pushed up a bit to get in range of your people. and remember, his defensive skill, natty, ends if his monks try to help him ; )

No.

Interrupts, at this point, are still bad for the game. They were worse when Aegis was around - it's a little better now that we have less "extremely powerful single skills" that you have to shut down, and a lot of the time, it comes down to luck on whether you get the fast cast or not, and on whether the Guardian or Warding blocked the interrupt or not. It was especially bad on Aegis, where if the Savage/Dshot hit or not when the other team was about to wipe, or whether you got a fast cast or not on the Aegis meant the decision of the entire game.

It's not really interrupts that are bad - it's the % chance that everything else offers that makes interrupts bad. So unless all the % chance is taken away, a high reliance on interrupts will always be pretty bad for the game.

FoxBat · Jun 08, 2009, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by TironPlyth

As for Weaken Knees, the skill simply should not retain its current functionality. Punishing movement is an awful mechanic.

It's called a snare. At least WK gives opponents the choice on whether to move or not.

jaximus · Jun 08, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

... It was especially bad on Aegis, where if the Savage/Dshot hit or not when the other team was about to wipe, or whether you got a fast cast or not on the Aegis meant the decision of the entire game...

if the interrupt on one aegis meant the difference in the game, chances are you were going to lose anyway or the two teams were so perfectly balanced that one interrupt made the difference, the ranger did his job and got the win.

again though, i fail to see how interruption, a part of the game that requires skill/attention is bad for a game. if you take interrupts away, then the game becomes who can mindlessly spam skills without worry until the other team dies.

moriz · Jun 08, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

main problem with interrupts is that it is inherently unfair. there are players all over the world, and those who are lucky enough to live right next door to an anet server will have a huge advantage with their interrupts. let's face it, a player playing with 15 ping will interrupt dramatically better than an equally skilled player playing at 200 ping.

having interrupts is good. however, if there's too much emphasis on interrupting alone as a form of shutdown, then it is not good because of its inherent unfairness.

lutz · Jun 08, 2009, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

if the interrupt on one aegis meant the difference in the game, chances are you were going to lose anyway or the two teams were so perfectly balanced that one interrupt made the difference, the ranger did his job and got the win.

Actually, no.

bungusmaximus · Jun 08, 2009, 02:32 PM // 14:32

I see where moriz is going, but to a lesser extent ping matters with a lot of stuff that requires solid timing, not just interrupts. Why is ping unfair when you want to interrupt stuff and not fair when your carefully timed Diversion lands too late? My gripe with rangers is that they're simply too good at everything. When you tone down ridiculous stances, ridiculous e-management and, to a lesser extent, the ability to do ridiculous damage I can live with the interrupts pretty well.

Without interrupts pvp will be swarming with all kinds of caster lames.

As for the rest, good positioning solves a LOT of your average ranger troubles, there's flight time and obstruction that have to be factored in.

Reverend Dr · Jun 08, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaximus

if you take interrupts away, then the game becomes who can mindlessly spam skills without worry until the other team dies.

That's what people are complaining about interrupts. You yourself said there is more to interrupting than just spamming skills; if this were the case then a moderate recharge increase (7sec for savage 12 for d-shot) would not affect that playstyle.

Then there is the whole issue of ping. While the people that complain the loudest about ping would be losing regardless of ping, Anet has been doing a very bad job with their servers. I used to get 100 ping back during prophecies, now I almost never get below 300. At the same time there are TF2 servers on the other side of the planet from me that I will regularly get 100-150 ping.

Right now with the current recharge, interrupts can be used for faster spreading of poison, careful interrupts, and spike compression all at the same time.

God_Hand · Jun 08, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

It's called a snare. At least WK gives opponents the choice on whether to move or not.

Weaken Knees is not a snare. Rather, it causes 10 health per second of innate degen (5 pips). It also applies 14-16 (based on spec of course, I'll use 14 in this example) health per second while moving that does not count as degen.

So basically, either don't move, or suffer 34-36 health a second in degen. (10 pips + Weaken Knees)

"Weaken Knees: Elite Noob Spell. For ---Maintainable--- seconds, target foe's Health degeneration is capped at 12...17...18 while moving. Causes 5 of those for you when foe is not moving, and 7...12...13 for you while they are moving."

Is basically what Weaken Knees is.

Anything that punishes movement is bad for the game, IMO.

Killed u man · Jun 08, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Anything that punishes movement is bad for the game, IMO.

[Bull's Strike]

?........

jaximus · Jun 08, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

if this were the case then a moderate recharge increase (7sec for savage 12 for d-shot) would not affect that playstyle.

at first that sounds logical, but look into it further. if you increase the recharge time of one of the few things holding back hex overload, then teams will pack more fire and forget hexes onto bars. then there are blocks, blinds, blurrs, attack speed debuffs that all will shut down interrupts even more. with that, interrupts will likely fall from the meta. 2 seconds doesnt sound like a long time, but in the case of interrupts, it is an enormous change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Then there is the whole issue of ping.

it is interesting you brought this into the discussion. so with ping being by nature hard to control and volatile, why should something that is highly reliant on ping and fragile to begin with, be penalized?

with every online game with players around the world competing with each other ping will be an issue. no matter how good technology gets, and the connection speeds increase while resistance decreases, there will be a difference based on location. also though, good players know how to get around ping. yes it may hinder teams with interruptions, prots, heals and such, but knowing that you will be 'slower' can be figured into how you play. you may need to anticipate more, plan ahead and dont play entirely reactive. im not saying that the disparity in ping is a good thing, just saying that it isnt the horrible monster people make it out to be. ping is generally the scapegoat for when people dont want to admit they played poorly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Right now with the current recharge, interrupts can be used for faster spreading of poison, careful interrupts, and spike compression all at the same time.

any attack with a timer can be problematic for all of these reasons then, correct? as for poison spread, if you see teammates in quick succession, be hit with poison, following the 3-4 hit (depending on the time between the last 2) you know you have a 5 second window where sav/magebane isnt ready, and you only need to fake out a d shot, or call for a quick blind/block/blurr to get your skill off.

as for careful interrupts, these are good. a player uses skill by doing their job and not allowing you to do your job. this is good, and skills need to be able to do this. if you up the recharge on skills that require active play, that lowers the activity and increases poor play.

spike compression. this is an interesting point. any skill with a timer, through the history of guild wars, has be looked at for this exact reason. the faster you can put damage on a target, the better. (agonizing chop vs d chop comes to mind here)

with that said though, id like to shed light on a few skills that serve roles similar to whats been brought up. lets look at the rangers arsenal. needling shot finds its way onto bars now that hunters lost the timer/recharge time. the skill has a timer, quick flight, short recharge, but damage limit and sees play. its used for the fast spread of poison, but loses the damage due to the cap. now lets look at punishing shot. quick recharge, timer, interrupts, and + damage. better for spike compression, but doesnt see play, because the unblockable + disable on magebane > + damage. now look at magebane because i used it in this comparison. unblockable, quick recharge, timer, disables. the unblockable and disable are >>>> the + damage of savage but you lose some versatility in your bar. now lets look at d shot. disables, medium recharge, quick timer, damage cap. this skill is a must on ranger bars. its not used for poison spread, its not used for spike assist, but rather precision interrupting.

what can we conclude from this? as for the versatility of the ranger, with poison spread, interrupting, and spike compression with quick attacks, from the trends that make certain ranger skills see play, is that there are different reasons why they are on the bars, but they use the same skills. skills like needling and d shot have damage caps. maybe all interrupts should so that they arent used for damage compression. interrupts have the delay afterward to keep one from chaining them for poison spread. a pure interrupter will never see play, so they must be able to keep either damage or the ability to spread poison. i vote for a damage cap on interrupts so they cannot be utilized as damage compression and be as effective as they currently are.

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 08, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Anything that punishes movement is bad for the game, IMO.

Enraged Smash
Bull's Strike
Quivering Blade
"Coward!"

You know what i mean...

Stranger The Ranger · Jun 09, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

The problem with WK is that it's just another passive fire 'n forget hex.
Skills like "Coward" and Bulls Strike require you to pay attention to your enemy.

bungusmaximus · Jun 09, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Comparing Bull's to weaken knees is kinda lolwtf. Imho there's only a few hexes that are well implemented.

-Dom hexes like diversion and shame
-Water hexes

Both lines are very powerful, but utterly wasted when not executed right. That's why I liked defile defense on necro's, it's an action hex for necro's rather then most of the fire+forget crap they usually run.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 09, 2009, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Defile Defenses is fire and forget crap.

Burton2000 · Jun 09, 2009, 09:38 AM // 09:38

I really don't see what peoples problems with ranger interupts is tbh. D shot and savage have been a part of play since the start of Guild Wars. They promote skillful play and not mindless button bashing. But maybe i'm a bit biased but still I don't think they warrant any nerf to them not when you have so many other powerful/overpowered skills that deserve to be nerfed instead.

Oh and defile could maybe be a good skill if they nerfed its god awful duration to something reasonable like 6 seconds so it can't be used as a cover hex.