Curse

God_Hand · Nov 05, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

The nail in the coffin was R/A Escape Daggers, although that's not the whole cause.

The reality is that the most recent updates haven't really changed a whole lot. In the past year, the meta's hardly changed. There's nothing fresh anymore; everyone you see is running a build you've already seen before. Most of the overpowered skills are still overpowered; basically all of the unused, underpowered skills are still unused because they're underpowered. Not even Codex Arena has changed this.

For some reason, even though the Sept skill update was fairly decent (fixing the R/A's, Armor of Sanctity, etc), I can't even bring myself to play anymore. I'll make, say, a Shock Axe bar, but for whatever reason, I can't bring myself to actually go into a PvP area and actually use it. I'd say I now spend more time reading/posting on Guru than actually playing GW, which is kinda sad when you think about it.

Just my 2 cents.

Greedy Gus · Nov 05, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

I don't really think you can actually find cases where anet actively tried to drive players away. Almost all of these were misguided attempts at positive changes, listening to the wrong people, etc. And the main culprits for driving down the quality of pvp were incompetence, bad management prioritization/decision-making, an unfortunate business model, and sometimes stubborn insistence on finding unique solutions to problems instead of listening to the players. Introduction of pvp titles didn't help either, it just slowly made the type of players & atmosphere from HA spread to every format.

Warvic · Nov 05, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

prepare for wall of text and fail english..

@god hands.(and others)

It's not sad. most games will keep me going for max 2 month. GW gave me more then 4 years of fun! think about that.

But yes I agree the pvp ain't what it used to be. And one of the biggest reasons is that alot of pve players joined the game. So the question is. How can they make a MMO based on pvp.. But keep a big playerbase?

I think world pvp will be a very good thing in GW2. Because (im not joking) most people like to "pown!" they want to 1 shot people.. So..

Make the best OR coolest looking gear PVP REWARDS.

This means in the end alot of pve players will play pvp and the real pvp'ers will keep doing gvg etc! with ladders and such!

And for the real pve'ers (the people who uwsc all day for their e-peen)..
Make some hard pve content. like DoA. But this won't work if they create a skill called "shadow form" in the game. because then people cant do end game pve. they can only farm stuff for nothing.. and then they quit.

I'm not against farming. it's a way for pve'ers to make money. but don't make it that you get MUCH MONEY from farming. like I said before. let pvp give good rewards and maybe valueable things. that will encourage pvp!

Krill · Nov 06, 2009, 12:13 AM // 00:13

I get the feeling the Lindsey is genuinely trying to get up to speed and make positive changes, despite some painful blunders. As such I pause to heap the criticism on her (like Izzy); it sucks when you put a lot of time and effort into something only to be endlessly criticized, I empathize with that. But the simple fact is much of that precious time and effort has been wasted on frivolous projects while major problems have gone unaddressed for months, even years, many of them caused by updates. As for the removal of TA & HB, they were both dead, everyone knew it and the five active players in both formats still crying about it will probably never grow out of their diapers. CA will probably not be successful but at least they tried, there was literally nothing to lose.

Right now I'm just enjoying what's left of tombs for the most part, it's dead as hell and I can't play it for six hours strait like the old days but I have to admit, despite concerns about a further drop in players, not having heroes in HA has been great and should have been done a long time ago.

Highlander Of Alba · Nov 06, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Get a grip guys............this forum is a small segment of players..yes your entitled to your opinion but downward spiral geeze...if you dont like it stop playing it for gods sake .

Oh no you cant you have stacks of items and you got hurt cause they changed something you may have liked..

Remember the outcry make pve/pvp seperate there were pages screaming for this. They did it and guys still complain.

Some guys are so ungrateful you paid once and its free .I have a few accounts slots ect ..overhall this game cost me nothing for time played

So either way they gave you a game that many yes many consider a great game.

You cant compare Aion as its a P2P not like GW

So either put up or shut up and go play another game until you feel drawn to come back to

DreamWind · Nov 06, 2009, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highlander Of Alba

Get a grip guys............this forum is a small segment of players..yes your entitled to your opinion but downward spiral geeze...if you dont like it stop playing it for gods sake .

Most of the PvP community HAS stopped playing, and that is exactly the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highlander of Alba

Remember the outcry make pve/pvp seperate there were pages screaming for this. They did it and guys still complain.

I certainly wasn't one of those screaming. If anything I'd put the split on my top5 worst decisions in the history of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Highlander of Alba

Some guys are so ungrateful you paid once and its free .I have a few accounts slots ect ..overhall this game cost me nothing for time played

I hear this alot and it is so stupid...."it is a one time pay game you got your money's worth now go away and be happy". That is so completely off topic and doesn't even address the question. So since it is a one time pay game that justifies them failing to maintain it and justifies them completely downgrading it? Since it is a one time pay game that justifies a mass exodus of PvP leavers with only a small PvP community left? So since it is a one time pay game that justifies complete competitive game incompetence? Please get back to me with valid responses to the topic at hand.

kirafangblade · Nov 06, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

ta and hb were the place to go when u dont have time and/or people for ha and gvg. especially TA. i know that as soon as i say this, people would be like: kira fangblade missed shove spiking LOLOLOLOLOL. well, yea, thats true. but i'm sure i wont be the only one missing TA and HB though. it was fun, more fun than RA and codex, even when i wasnt running shove spike. like when i ran trap way and gets some glad points with it, its hilarious, but it ll never happen again :[

ruemere · Nov 06, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

My belief is that Guild Wars as a game fails with regard to accidental socializing aspect, and, as a consequence, fails to please PvP fans.

Before I elaborate on reasons for this opinion, a quick explanation of accidental socializing.
Accidental socializing happens when you meet someone by accident and start socializing. It could be during random ganking session, mass PvP event, farming or kill stealing conflict... in other MMO games.
Socializing with random people forms basis for alliances, friendships and trading. It provides a solid foundation for many communities in more MMO-oriented games.

Reasons why Guild Wars fail in this regard: instancing, the rush, unforgiving gameplay.

Instancing without region channels, multiple safe-zone locations and loneliness during arena / mission play. People do not bother to talk or explain things. You're lucky if someone pings anything or draws a line on a compass. Even typical l33t talk, LoLing or plz are too rare to form any bonds between random strangers.
The only way to get anyone to talk to, is to visit one of unformal social centers (like Kamadan or Random Arena safe zones) and troll or trade.

The rush aspect of the game is the next reason - you're expected to do your stuff, do it quickly and do it perfectly. No time is left for random chitchat. Whenever you try to strike a conversation, you're risking wellbeing of your team. So, you either rush or wait for your turn to act, but you're not going to have time to talk...

Unforgiving gameplay - you break the silence and you make a mistake. You're a toast. Your team is finished. And instead of new friends, you've got a group of people who're going to /resign, ragequit or flame you the moment they see you again.

Why does this affect whole game experience? Why does this hurt PvP?

Every game has a learning curve - you need to walk before you can run. The PvP part of Guild Wars both invites you to experiment and at the same time punishes you if you try to do new things recklessly.
Due to problems with socializing, you're unlikely to learn from other players directly - there is no time to observe or explain. Wiki-reading, Guildwarsguru.com visiting are poor replacements for online contact. And there is little to none fun if you have to both play and read docs.

The final result is a mass of clueless people who do not want to read docs, some partly enlightened amateurs (like me) who are never going to be any good at PvP because they like to talk to people too much, and a small elite of players who are going to feel besieged by dilettantes.

Things I'd like to see, stuff I'd like to be able to do

Here is a list of things I was able to do in other games, which could benefit GW experience:

1. Built-in voice communication mode with automatic room creation for any instanced team

2. Continent chat rooms (Tyria, Elona, etc) with highly developed filter engine - "Hello, I cannot do this quest... and I cannot see anyone nearby. Any advice please?"
- "I want to start PVP, where can I do that"

3. Continent announcement boards.
- "New guild is looking for players..."
- "A player is looking for some mass event..."

4. Widely accessible non-random, one-on-one and 4-vs-4 arenas with bots or players without any rewards - to try builds, learn basics or have fun with friend.

5. Mass PvP. Mass as in hundreds of people inolved.

6. Spike nerfing.
- square root type of limit to damage/health loss/mana loss within short period of time (i.e. for a given time period, if a number of attacks against a single target is exceeded, subsequent attacks are becoming progressively weaker).
- decrease resource regeneration rate (i.e. slower energy and health recovery rates)

At this moment, 4x4 health loss spike is very different from 8x8 health loss spike due to the number of attacks occurring simultaneously. The same goes for healing and resource recovery. However, if the spike nerfing was introduced, winning would require more tactical approach to resource depletion.
And spiking isn't just about doing damage - the same principle could be applied to healing, hexing, regenerating resources.

Regards,
Ruemere

moriz · Nov 06, 2009, 02:46 PM // 14:46

don't know about you, but i'd turn off voice chat just so i don't have to listen to pip-squeak 10 year olds trying to act "gangsta". most of your other ideas won't work, particularly "spike nerfing". you are essentially trying to punish coordination.

anet's main failings here was not introducing proper systems in place when they were needed (full pvp characters, a good built-in tournament system), and not providing enough support for the lower end arenas so they can act as feeder arenas into higher levels of pvp. random arena was particularly bad; you can't have a truly random arena in a team-based RPG. it should be random in the sense that you don't organize a team yourself, instead, the system should have good enough matchmaking ability to ensure you don't get into lame duck situations right from the get go.

and yeah, bad skill balancing is another thing, but we've all know about this one.

Vazze · Nov 06, 2009, 03:19 PM // 15:19

why lol?
- the game is static, no meaningful changes, no new content
- mini-skill balance in every 2 months? lmao
- since GW proph 3 huge pve area has been added. What did pvp get? 4 professions and HB..lol?
- apparently they don't know how to structure a playerbase to have constant flow of recruits
- gw2 is in the works, the strategy is to keep gw1 running with minimal/no effort until gw2 is out

Nimble Night · Nov 06, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Guild Wars in regards to PvP has failed in serveral ways.

Firstly, before you can play PvP you need to unlock a very large amount of skills, this takes a very large amount of time and simply puts people off bothering. Why you simply don't have all skills unlocked when you enter a PvP outpost is a mystery to me, simply implementing this would boost the numbers of players getting into PvP, as they would not have to endure the hours of boring grind in random arenas.

There is not a good enough incentive to play GvG. On top of this skill balances are so bad and infrequent it simply is not fun to play. Playing ladder has absolutely no purpose any more, besides grinding a champion rank and has therefore become dead. GvG needs some sort of reward system that gives a direct incentive to play ladder. Tournament reward points were nice, but not enough. The game is called guild wars, so playing guild battles should have a pretty substantial reward.

Heroes Ascent is ruined by the halls objectives. Simply removing relic runs from halls would fix a lot of problems with that format. They are boring and spending a whole match standing still saying 'you're stuck' on vent gets tedious fast.

The main problem with PvP is of course the terrible skill balances. How many attempts did it take to nerf lingering curse? That whole update should have been reverted within hours and the fact it took so long to be acknowledged as a problem made Anet look ridiculous.

Currently there has been a problem with paragon defensive shouts and featherfoot grace for some time now. I don't hold much faith that the next balance will actually fix anything.

IninefingersI · Nov 06, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

I have thought many times that GW should have integrated voice chat. The more I think about it, though, I don't know if it would be all that great of an idea. Free2Play games generally have a much lower maturity level than subscription games. Granted, online gaming doesnt have a good rep for well mannered players, ( Ethernet routers have a built in device that filters out class & good manners and amplifies assholishness & bravado.) but GW is one of the worst of the bunch. People aren't friendly or helpful in GW because of lack of communication options. Its because most are immature kids and immature kids will always behave like immature kids. Giving them integrated voice chat would just amplify their already poor behavior. I think the best thing they could have done for the game is make it subscription from the start.

Einherj3r · Nov 06, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimble Night

There is not a good enough incentive to play GvG.

It's the most fun MMO PvP system and the most fun team based game there is requiring the comparatively highest amount of coordination.
At least it used to be... since Nightfall the meta just got worse and worse.
Still, there doesn't have to be an incentive to do something fun.

I agree with the rest of your post though.

IninefingersI · Nov 06, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nimble Night

Guild Wars in regards to PvP has failed in serveral ways.

Firstly, before you can play PvP you need to unlock a very large amount of skills, this takes a very large amount of time and simply puts people off bothering. Why you simply don't have all skills unlocked when you enter a PvP outpost is a mystery to me, simply implementing this would boost the numbers of players getting into PvP, as they would not have to endure the hours of boring grind in random arenas.

Good point, BUT, you can start out with a bunch of pvP skills ..... for a price $$$ What is it? 9$ per skillset or something? You can follow the timeline of how desperate Anet was to turn over some money. Its like watching someone jonsing for crack. Selling PvP skillsets, selling storage panes, selling PvP pets, selling character 'makeovers'. Anything they could think of to turn over a quick buck.

Reverend Dr · Nov 06, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

In any case PvP was professionally killed off at release by forcing players to unlock an insane amount of skills through pve. Half the competitive beta community never actually played the game after release anymore. The apex of guild wars was actually beta because back then there was much more interest in pvp.

For some reason most people don't know this or seem to understand that there was a huge competitive crowd waiting for the game that later quit as soon as they found out they would have to grind pve before they could play.

Motoko · Nov 07, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

ANet originally made GW with it being a competitive game in mind, to be played in tournaments and such like Counterstrike and Starcraft. Once released, the PvE market was so much bigger that they decided they would make more money catering to that, rather than pursuing it as a competitive game.

The two biggest faults that killed competitive GvG were lack of tournament support by Anet (no more world championships, automated tournaments that they don't have to be involved with), and the extreme difficulty for 3rd parties to organize tournaments/ladder/leagues because of the way obs mode, the servers, etc. were structured and made everything so proprietary and difficult to watch and broadcast. No spectator slots, no replays, not able to view games in general besides 15 minutes after the fact on obs mode (which is frequently bugged).

I don't think they're intentionally trying to deaden the game in preparation for GW2 though, they just realized that they will have the most success with GW2 by keeping the PvE market happy above all else.

Pretty much this. ANet made a huge mistake by trying to market their product through the GWWC. That failed epically. Along with pumping so much money into the tournaments. Personally I think the competitors would have been fine without the prizes and just the trip.

They did it backwords, and they've finally figured it out. The whole game is moving from PvE to PvP. This is how the marketing needs to be run and they've understood that with EoTN.

GW2 is essentially a "Hey we fked up GW 1, so we are gonna make another one." Hopefully they've learned from their mistakes.

DreamWind · Nov 07, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Pretty much this. ANet made a huge mistake by trying to market their product through the GWWC.

I don't think so. I think it was a good idea. The championships were the height of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Personally I think the competitors would have been fine without the prizes and just the trip.

I don't. The moment people realized that there was no longer any objective reason to play the game, the true competive community died.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

They did it backwords, and they've finally figured it out. The whole game is moving from PvE to PvP. This is how the marketing needs to be run and they've understood that with EoTN.

GW2 is essentially a "Hey we fked up GW 1, so we are gonna make another one." Hopefully they've learned from their mistakes.

Yes they did it backwards, but I fail to see how anything has changed. They are still doing it backwards, and they are going to continue doing it backwards in 2 because they most likely see no reason why they should change.

ruemere · Nov 07, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

To address some points raised by esteemed predecessors:

Built-in voice chat would lead to kids spamming the channels.
- not necessarily, turning the sounds off is always an option just like ticking off "voice chat" checkbox.

Microtransactions break the game.
- GW is probably the only online game where buying stuff does not make you more powerful than other players.

Unlocking skills scares people away from PVP.
- Agreed. However, there is a sense of accomplishment in farming stuff and then investing it. It would be simpler if the unlocking costs were decreased for beginner characters to fraction of current Balthasar points cost.
- Beginner players need to have their choice restricted somehow (so that they are not overwhelmed by number of options), but it should be possible for them to get a decent training PVP course (with recommended skills provided for free).

I'd like to stress my final point - spiking needs to be nerfed because ganging up on a single target is too effective. With spiking nerfed, healing and resource recovery could be weakened to the point where resource management would require planning ahead for minutes instead of seconds.

Regards,
Ruemere

moriz · Nov 07, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

I'd like to stress my final point - spiking needs to be nerfed because ganging up on a single target is too effective. With spiking nerfed, healing and resource recovery could be weakened to the point where resource management would require planning ahead for minutes instead of seconds.

coordination vs uncoordinated opponents tends to be very effective. the correct response is to become coordinated yourself, so you don't get rolled over by coordinated opponents. you are essentially trying to nerf basic coordination out of the game, and then subsequently slow the game down even more. so no.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 07, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

I wouldn't go as far to say the PvP in Guild Wars failed, sure there could have been various things changed earlier to market it as a more PvP orientated game. There was a point in time where I could say it has been one of the most enjoyable PvP games I've played in the last 10 years.

Guild Wars went from...point a to c, with point b being the height/peak of a relatively good PvP game. To a boring, mis-guided, untrue to the original design as a whole, imbalanced, dead one. Sad.