Curse

silfo · Jun 01, 2008, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Hello. Me and a friend do a lot of HM missions and vanquishing, and even though we usually run Sabway, we wanted to try something different, a physical team so that we could both benefit from it. We are both Rit/R running a splinter barrage build.
We thought a physical team would be fun and different since we tend to run with only spellcasters and got a bit bored with it.

I came up with this setup for our heroes, and in theory, it should work, but it doesnt, so I fail!
We get spiked a lot and die fairly quickly sometimes.

This is what I run and what my heroes run:

Player 1: [build=OAKjkxhjITykYMLGbMwgLT3iXMA]

I use the battle standard for extra support because all heroes are ranged. My friend carries the battle standard of honor, so we both get +armor and +damage

General Morgan: [build=OQCjUumI6OubicQWIPirwXY5NA]
Pretty much the Racway build for morgan with an interrupt for when monsters are being annoying and spamming spells. His dazed comes in handy for middle battle problems.

Hayda: [build=OQCjUqnLqSubqYrbdY+iFZDZybA]
Another Racway para (I love paragons!) but changed to give the party some extra support, I thought it might help with the almost party wipe situations I was having.

Melonni: [build=OgSjQoqK7Oe3Jhh4+GeBvlX8LA]
Ok, those who have used this hero build before must tell me if it is really effective or not. She hardly ever uses the awesome Dwayna's touch. I am not used to a healer dervish so I can't really tell if she was doing her job properly or not. Her support though, is awesome. Gotta love those enchants for my physicals!

Player 2: [build=OAKiIykDJTixsYsxADuMlLexAA]

Margrid: [build=OgUTcZslXyV6xQ1wJAM8SE1A7AA]
Margrid is awesome! Interrupts and conditions spams the mobs, she actually knows how to use epidemic quite well and thanks to her, all monks die really fast. She usually dazes at the beginning of the fight, but if there is more than 1 spellcaster that didn't get affected by epidemic, Morgan usually takes care of that. She has throw dirt because I was mostly having problems with some really difficult melee mobs, and she actually uses it quite well (I thought she would run to the mobs and use it, but no, she only uses it on mobs that run towards us).

Ogden: [build=OwUTMwHD1JDcXnJjx6RAZEGTAA]
Ogden sucks! I had to change his build several times. Initially I had restore condition as the elite, but yeah, he spams it a LOT, specially because the paragons have cracked armor all the time. Still, he only does a half decent job, long battles completely drain his energy. I thought about replacing him with a N/Rt healer but the party really needs the protection. For some reason he isn't doing his job right.

Olias: [build=OAhiYwh8gyimSzJ3wccWVTuA]
As sugested in the Racway thread, healer N/Rt with better e-management due to the lack of minions. This one definitely works wonders, never runs out of energy and heals well.

All the heroes have minor runes, a couple have a major rune. They also all have major vigor runes, the hero with the lowest HP is Ogden with 516. The weapons they use are also good, all with +30 hp, a 20% enchants for ogden.

I don't see what is the problem with this synergy, but it just doesn't work as well as I was hoping. Even though I sometimes change the builds slightly to adjust to the area, we still get spiked a lot and die.
Can anyone give me some tips? Maybe there are a few skills in my setup that heroes don't know how to use properly that I completely missed.
I thought about changing Ogden's elite to Zealous Benediction but I don't know if he is going to spam it like crazy when targets are above 50% health.

I would also like to add that Morgan used to run a [spear swipe] build and it was a LOT of fun. Fairly useless as he used to run towards mobs far away from us (edge of the map), even when flagged, and he also used the skill on spirits. SPIRITS! FFS! lol but it was definitely fun to watch him run like crazy every time a mob entered radar range.

Tyla · Jun 01, 2008, 06:41 PM // 18:41

The problem with Ogden is he has a res, a touch range hex removal and no condition removal.

Not only that, but heroes are bad at prots. It would be more benficial to use Enfeebling Blood, as the AI can't find a way to screw that up.

Those Rit bars also need D-Shot.

Covah · Jun 01, 2008, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Take out dwayna's touch on Melonni, I usually put blood ritual for E support for casters. Monk heroes, if having a res, shouldn't have the worst res in the game. I don't know why people even consider Resurrect. Taking time to stop healing the whole party to res a party member with 25% max hp and 0 energy??? They either die right away or are useless until they gain their energy back. Put in Res chant or rebirth and Shift Click it to manually use it on party wipes.

DarkSpirit · Jun 01, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

I would replace Ogden with a Support Rit, something like:

[Support Rit;OAOk4oPYoIyDGzbqpdJUfrfAJ5C]

...and give your motivation paragon a [[Lyric of Zeal]

Don't expect Melonni to be too much of a healer since she has to be busy spamming both Dark Fury and Order of Pain at the same time and both these enchants have very short recharge and high blood sacrifice, so she has to worry about keeping herself alive too. Your Olias has to step up to be the main healer but without a good MM to drive Soul Reaping, I would prefer this as my main healer as Ether Renewal synergizes with Orders:

[Ether Restoration Healer;Oghiwwh8ULoFZMp5kbYOOvYA]

Dark Fury requires 17% sacrifice, so if Melonni has say 500 health, that would be 85hp every 5s to fuel DF.

OOP requires 17% sacrifice every 5s too, which is a total sacrifice of about 170 health every 5s or so. You only gain about 13 health from mysticism everytime an enchantment ends which means most of the healing has to come from somewhere else even when you are not being hit with anything! Melonni has more than enough work from trying to cast the 10e enchantment each, every 5s plus healing herself. I wouldn't expect much other healing from her for the party, except once in a while. However, I also noticed that if the party is in trouble, she spends more of her time healing than casting orders, whether you like that or not.

silfo · Jun 01, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Covah

Take out dwayna's touch on Melonni, I usually put blood ritual for E support for casters. Monk heroes, if having a res, shouldn't have the worst res in the game. I don't know why people even consider Resurrect. Taking time to stop healing the whole party to res a party member with 25% max hp and 0 energy??? They either die right away or are useless until they gain their energy back. Put in Res chant or rebirth and Shift Click it to manually use it on party wipes.

Without dwayna's touch will she still be able to heal properly? Or is she there just for support?
About that rez, uhm that wasn't supposed to be there... i use res chant. I must pay more attention to the builds when i load them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Don't expect Melonni to be too much of a healer since she has to be busy spamming both Dark Fury and Order of Pain at the same time and both these enchants have very short recharge and high blood sacrifice, so she has to worry about keeping herself alive too. Your Olias has to step up to be the main healer but without a good MM to drive Soul Reaping, I would prefer this as my main healer as Ether Renewal synergizes with Orders:

[Ether Restoration Healer;Oghiwwh8ULoFZMp5kbYOOvYA]

I'll give the ele healer a try. I hope he does a good job.

The reason I don't have condition removal on my monk is because monk heroes spam it a lot on the paragons with cracked armor, and run out of energy quickly.

Richardt · Jun 01, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Consider setting one of your paras up with [incoming].

At 10 command it lasts for about 4 secs which is plenty of time to get past the initial spike and let your heroes do their healing thing.

DarkSpirit · Jun 01, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by silfo

I'll give the ele healer a try. I hope he does a good job.

The reason I don't have condition removal on my monk is because monk heroes spam it a lot on the paragons with cracked armor, and run out of energy quickly.

You are right, I tried many combinations of the monk hero and he has yet to do as good a job as the Ether Renewal restoration healer.

The monk hero would start off well, then run out of energy and start to suck on a drawn out fight in HM. Rit restoration heals are more energy efficient and works well for secondary rits. The enchantments from orders stack on to the Ether Renewal bonus for more health and energy to the Ele everytime he casts a heal, sometimes even giving him a net gain in energy when he casts a spell.

silfo · Jun 01, 2008, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are right, I tried many combinations of the monk hero and he has yet to do as good a job as the Ether Renewal restoration healer.

The monk hero would start off well, then run out of energy and start to suck on a drawn out fight in HM. Rit restoration heals are more energy efficient and works well for secondary rits. The enchantments from orders stack on to the Ether Renewal bonus for more health and energy to the Ele everytime he casts a heal, sometimes even giving him a net gain in energy when he casts a spell.

Tried the ele healer and I am in awe, his energy management is PERFECT! Instead of daze, now morgan has incoming and it works well, but I should micro manage it or he will use it too soon before the mobs reach us.

I am having lots of problems with kournan scribes, their fireball spells deal 180 damage to all the party and their meteors stop the healers from doing anything. Spent about 100 four leaf clovers already. Damn scribes!

The ele healer seems to heal a bit slowly sometimes, his healing spells are recharged and he just acts lazy.

About the prot monks... how many times he we seen them cast protective spirit on minions? They should get slapped.

Razah as prot and support is working quite well, the party is hex and condition free at all times.

DarkSpirit · Jun 01, 2008, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by silfo

The ele healer seems to heal a bit slowly sometimes, his healing spells are recharged and he just acts lazy.

If you have not, make sure to set him to "Avoid Combat", so he would just be concentrating on heals, otherwise the AI may act alittle wierd sometimes trying to attack the enemies.

legacyofkain85 · Jun 01, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

if u are going to use a ether renewal ele healer,why not make him /mo and use heal other,heal party,jamei gaze for example they heal for more and are more spammable,or make him a e/mo prot

silfo · Jun 01, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Even with the ele healer, I think one of my problems atm is.. I only have him as a healer! Using Razah as smite/channeler and Melonni that doesn't really heal much (I swapped [dwaynas touch] for [blood ritual]), all the pressure is on the ele. Maybe instead of channeling, Razah can use the first two slots for restoration, with [mend body and soul] and [spirit light]. Damage will decrease a bit but might be worth it.

DarkSpirit · Jun 01, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by legacyofkain85

if u are going to use a ether renewal ele healer,why not make him /mo and use heal other,heal party,jamei gaze for example they heal for more and are more spammable,or make him a e/mo prot

I tried that but I am not getting as much heals as the restore rit, also keep in mind that you are not getting the divine favor bonus a primary monk has and you cant use WoH, LoD, or any of the nice monk elites.

On paper they can be good dedicated protector if you have the player slot for it. Protection does not need alot of skill points, but the hero AI does not use most protection spells well, besides Aegis. It is pretty hard to screw up Aegis even for a hero.

As for the orders derv, my build is alittle different:

[Orders Derv;OgSkQoq56xqzkwQkfZv2X972N8C]

I use Earth Prayer, as well as Wind and Mysticism. I find that she is stronger with this setup and if she is stronger, she tends to cast orders or heal others more than spending time/energy healing herself.

You usually need at least a primary healer and a primary protector for a 8 man team.

silfo · Jun 02, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Actually my ele healer has [spirit transfer] in his build and it heals a lot more than most monk spells. I wanted to test how he would use this skill as it is one of my favourites when I play rest rit. It is a great healing spell and I always have spirits nearby. The only downside is, even though the energy cost is high and worth it, the hero will cast it on players with 85% health, so maybe [spirit light] is a better option.

One of the advantages of restoration magic is for example, [mend body and soul]. It removes conditions as well as heals and heroes don't spam it as they do with conditional removals.
I am definitely not saying that monks aren't good, just that heroes are not smart enough to use their skills.

Is [pious renewal] enough for energy management? How did your hero manage?

DarkSpirit · Jun 02, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by silfo

Is [pious renewal] enough for energy management? How did your hero manage?

She manages quite well and she usually have enough energy. Rac's orders derv works well based on the number of enchantments on her.

Considering how short the order enchantments last (5s), mine is based on enchantment loss to heal the derv and ally. Signet of Pious Light is also nice for an instant recharge, 0 energy heal. But as I have said, whether you use Rac's orders derv or mine, she is only there as a secondary healer, you still need a good primary healer like the Ether Renewal restoration Ele. Her primary task is still to cast orders.

itsvictor · Jun 02, 2008, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Ogden's build is TERRIBLEZ123, thats why he isn't doing his job (take res off monk for starters) run a hybrid monk [Word of Healing][Patient Spirit][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Signet of Rejuvenation][Shield of Absorption][Dismiss Condition]. Give Olias Weapon of Warding instead of hard res. Give both paras finale of restoration and "go for the eyes" since most of your party is attacking it'll trigger heals off finale of restoration frequently. Also not having a melee means you need more party wide defense to hold aggro properly, needs more aegis/ward against melee.

Edit: TBH I was never a fan of BHA, I'd advise an SS necro with enfeebling blood and reckless haste for more support against melee and does a good amount of damage. My team setups usually have enough firepower to explode enemies before they have the chance to do us harm.

DarkSpirit · Jun 02, 2008, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsvictor

Edit: TBH I was never a fan of BHA, I'd advise an SS necro with enfeebling blood and reckless haste for more support against melee and does a good amount of damage. My team setups usually have enough firepower to explode enemies before they have the chance to do us harm.

Me neither, if I want BHA I would rather let a human do it than a hero. This is what I would use for 6-hero vanquishing on HM areas with tough caster mobs, as a SY Paragon:

[Motivational Paragon;OQWkIEl6piuTQmrxg7wa4Ns7WeD]
[Command Paragon 1;OQWkIMlrJiuTQG5zgvwW4Ks7WeD]
[Orders Derv;OgSkQoq56xqzkwQkfZv2X972N8C]
[Ether Restoration Healer;Oghiwwh8ULoFZMp5kbYOOvYA]
[Support Rit;OAOk4oPYoIyDGzbqpdJUfrfAJ5C]
[SS Curse Necro;OANSY4DT5BlBMi2B7OfCVV7EA]

silfo · Jun 02, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Me neither, if I want BHA I would rather let a human do it than a hero. This is what I would use for 6-hero vanquishing on HM areas with tough caster mobs, as a SY Paragon:

The problem is I don't have [save yourselves]. Well I do have the skill and rank 6 kurzick, but it is useless on a rit because I can't keep it up constantly. I have tested it and even with [for great justice] and [flurry] the adrenal gain isn't good enough to keep it up at most times. Even with it being used every 5 seconds or so, I can't tank, so when I attack the mob and get my party with 100 armor, they all target me and I'm dead meat (pain being a squishy). Following enemies around also doesn't help keep my adrenaline up constantly. My paragon does this quite well, but my ritualist fails.

That being said, considering I love your hero choice, what changes to the paragon builds would you make to compensate for the lack of [save yourselves]? My ward helps with a +24 armor boost, but some extra defense would make it perfect.

itsvictor · Jun 02, 2008, 02:27 AM // 02:27

you can make a makeshift omglolcan'tbelieveyou'reusingthatanditworks type of tank. Spirits strength with an axe and a shield.
Something looking like this :
[Cyclone Axe][Whirlwind Attack][Dismember][Disciplined Stance][Weapon of Aggression][Spirit's Strength][For Great Justice][Save Yourselves]

Disciplined stance is interchangable with any stance that will help block.
Use Ghost Forge Insignias and be BRAVE. Zealous axe with 15^enchant and +30. Shield would be 16al tactics req9 "inscription that makes you take less damage while enchanted" and +30 Health. This gives you a 90 AL frontliner that can easily maintain SY and does some good DPS. You're going to need enchant cover like prot spirit for places with enchant removal but you should be quite sturdy.

Yes I know I'm amazing lol.

silfo · Jun 02, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by itsvictor

you can make a makeshift omglolcan'tbelieveyou'reusingthatanditworks type of tank. Spirits strength with an axe and a shield.
Something looking like this :
[Cyclone Axe][Whirlwind Attack][Dismember][Disciplined Stance][Weapon of Aggression][Spirit's Strength][For Great Justice][Save Yourselves]

Disciplined stance is interchangable with any stance that will help block.
Use Ghost Forge Insignias and be BRAVE. Zealous axe with 15^enchant and +30. Shield would be 16al tactics req9 "inscription that makes you take less damage while enchanted" and +30 Health. This gives you a 90 AL frontliner that can easily maintain SY and does some good DPS. You're going to need enchant cover like prot spirit for places with enchant removal but you should be quite sturdy.

Yes I know I'm amazing lol.

lol
I actually tried something like that, but I guess I was missing the insignias and shield, thats probably why i was dying so much. I had a spawning focus instead.
Won't the attributes be too spread out? tactics, spawning, channeling and axe mastery?

It might work but the constant recast of [weapon of aggression] slows down the adrenaline gain.

I should give this a try, maybe work on my kurz rank so I can get [save yourselves] to last 5 secs instead of 4.

itsvictor · Jun 02, 2008, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Hmm maybe vital weapon instead of weapon of aggressiong because it would require less attribute spread.
Axe mastery=10(most damage is coming from spirit's strength)
Communing=5+1 (I think)
Tactics=9
Spawning power=11+1+1

Something like that I can't get on to check cause I'm preoccupied at the moment.