Curse

JR · Mar 07, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qdq Swi

Whiney PvPers might understand the game mechanics and balances in PvP, doesnt neceserily mean that they know two shits about PvE.

Almost every PvPer I know has played through the game in all campaigns multiple times. Back before reward points, and in the days where you could get better equipment through PvE, you almost HAD to.

That of course is entirely beside the point; Skill balance has a trivial effect on PvE.

Two April Mornings · Mar 07, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Skill balance has a trivial effect on PvE.

So true. You can easily make it through PVE with almost any skillset. If you really have any difficulty in PVE, see: Ursan Blessing or any other ridiculous PVE-only skills.

Evaine · Mar 07, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

From what I've noticed, the skill updates aren't really "balances" and they don't seem to be tested before implementation.

sixofone · Mar 07, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

I'm a PvE player, and I try to keep up with the changes to skills with all of these updates. I play pretty regularly, and I'm still learning the game - so the only real drawback to me has been that it disrupts my learning curve. I start to get a handle on synergy and builds and then a skill gets changed (buffed or nerfed) and I have to go: "Now, wait a minute - how does this affect me?"

Yeah, yeah, yeah - "PvE can be beat with an empty bar"... (sigh)

I like a couple of the changes - Weaken Armor now affects more than 1 target, so I can perhaps save bringing Epidemic to spread that condition (if that's what I'm trying to do).

The last update messed with me because the enemies I was hitting in PvE were behaving differently than before. Their skills got changed, as well as mine, and I got pwned because I didn't realize some of my skills were not as effective as they were the day before. (I lost a Rit on the Survivor track, 80k from tier 2 - but, oh well - it's just a game...)

Anyway, I appreciate that PvP players are kind of like the test pilots in that they take the skills and work the hell out of them, testing the limits and synergies, and showing how some new skills may have thrown the game into a less balanced state. (I think a lot of GW:EN contributed to this imbalance, considering how powerful many of them are compared to Prophecies and so on. Plus, GW:EN has taken away the class specialization since now anyone can: set traps; summon powerful creatures; perform KD's; use shouts; etc. No need to worry about your secondary profession choices anymore; everyone can use the same skills regardless of class!)

All in all, I think the skill changes are a good thing. They keep you on your toes, and keep the game fresh. (I stopped using a Mesmer Thief build, but now it may be more viable because Simple Thievery can interrupt skills, as well as steal them. Gives me more options!)

I just wish ANet would look at making each class unique, and fix things like: Necro skills and Mesmer skills that are often misclassed (Epidemic on a Mesmer primary when Disease is more a Necro thing; SS is more a Mesmer-type skill, and should be a Mesmer Elite); Assassins having only 1 or 2 poisoning skills, some of which are conditional, yet a Ranger can Apply Poison and poison with every attack, or cause bleeding, etc. Just sitting down and really thinking through what a class is about, and what sets it apart, and then come up with skills for other classes that could be potential counters. Make skills that people will go: "Whoa! Only [name class] can access those? I want to play one of those!"

Shuuda · Mar 07, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

There is no PvE balance, and the mechanics aren't that different. And, believe it or not, some PvPers are better at PvE than so called "PvErs".

Do you mind me fixing that up for you?

In my opinion, there are no such things as PvPers or PvErs, simply people who've mastered (or are attempting To master) all aspects of this game (as mentioned, "PvPrs" have done PvP and PvE), and those are not good enough to do so, they call themselves PvErs to give themselves identity, and then make up a bunch of reasons (normally elitism) to justify why they have only (if not at all) Learnt one half of the game. After that, the "PvPers" become a group and portrayed as bad and elitist in order to make the PvErs look better, or victimised by "Elitism" and how "A-net nerfs everything when PvPers QQ over it" etc etc. Naturally, I'm most likely spouting bullshit here. Oh well.

Quote:

From what I've noticed, the skill updates aren't really "balances" and they don't seem to be tested before implementation.

We're the ones who test them, since they get better results this way, rather than just getting a small group to test.

P.S: This Topic has some lovely quotes, thanks.

Toa Hahli · Mar 07, 2008, 06:47 PM // 18:47

The only reason i dont PvP anymore is because people take it too serious now. You kill em, you're a noob. They kill you, youre a noob. Either way you lose. PvE is starting to get that way too, Somehow im a noob because i dont take advantage of the overpowered Ursan. Some of the builds i used to use had the same ,if not more, Damage output than Ursan has. Ursan is only one way PvE isnt balanced in anyway shape or form. Its hard to get a group for HM without: 'You have Ursan' Me: 'Yes, but i dont use it' Them: 'OMFG Noob!' then i get kicked and have to use Hero/Hench which isnt bad in the longrun anyways.

nem coke · Mar 07, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toa Hahli

The only reason i dont PvP anymore is because people take it too serious now. You kill em, you're a noob. They kill you, youre a noob. Either way you lose.

So wrong. They kill you = you got outplayed/outbuilt/they played gimmick/you were bad/you were bad 5 months ago and you're still bad .You're noob only in one of these cases. You kill them , they say ''OMG noob!'' , you win twice. First you won the game , second you made them rage. It's not that people take it so serious, it's you that take people too serious

Back to the topic (partly). Some pvpers actually think that ANet favors pvers more and they do have good arguements to confirm that. (example - most of pvp is unplayable during the wintersdays or some other festival) , so you guys need better excuses to bitch at skill balances

upier · Mar 07, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

o and this is always fun [skill]Blackout[/skill]

Yeah I LOVE Blackout on Shiro!

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Half of those effects are very limited in the area or specific enemies using them, two of them are completely irrelevent, the other are made meaningless or made into an advantage by one of the following: Prot spirit, Spiteful Spirit, Broad head arrow.

PvE is a little different, sure, but I think we can all agree that any decent PvP player could easily beat 95% of PvE on their first try.

Take something like Conjure Nightmare.
It's duration was changed by a second. Since it had to be unbalanced - otherwise it wouldn't be touched. It was changed. By a SINGLE second!
Now let's consider the increased attack speed in HM. And Signet Of Clumsiness.
Foes attack mush faster - and because SoC is balanced on the normal attack speed - that makes the skill completely unbalanced!
Or take other active interrupts!
Those skills are completely underpowered in a PvE environment.
(The mesmer being the perfect example of this and this being also the reason why it's a bit sucky in PvE. I mean - if we have something like Power Spike and it's ability to interrupt spells - but then the monsters run around with "Monster skills" - which don't happen to be spells!)

Does this mean that the PvP skills shouldn't be balanced for the sake of PvE?
Hell no!
What I am saying is that the emotional outburst that accompanies a balance (by quite some PvE players) is completely expectable when we have a game where skills are balanced not only on their effect but also on the other skills and their properties - and the PvE game isn't being looked at when doing such balances.
(Hence my suggestion that PvE should be balanced AFTER they balance the skills for PvP. Because it the current game there is no way that a skill CAN be balanced on both sets of rules! I am aware that this would require an insane amount of work - but it wasn't our idea to keep breaking the rules in a game that RELIES on them just so that they would have less work to do!)
And that is why I find it insanely insulting that people who don't accept this OR knowingly look away face the players in such derogatory fashion as witnessed after each balance!

nem coke · Mar 07, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah I LOVE Blackout on Shiro!

Where does it say you have to use the same builds all around the place? orite zeh cookey cutterz bildz made yoo think so.

Shuuda · Mar 07, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Does this mean that the PvP skills shouldn't be balanced for the sake of PvE?

There are no such things as "PvP skills", good players call them "Skills"

upier · Mar 07, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by nem coke

Where does it say you have to use the same builds all around the place? orite zeh cookey cutterz bildz made yoo think so.

Wait - so are telling me if Blackout had a 1 second max duration in PvP (despite having 14 in dom!) - that would be considered a "feature"?
The skill description does NOT match what the skill does!
That's the issue!
Of course I WON'T use Blackout there! I'll bring WW.

nem coke · Mar 07, 2008, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Wait - so are telling me if Blackout had a 1 second max duration in PvP (despite having 14 in dom!) - that would be considered a "feature"?

Pvp has many useless skills, that pve finds useful and no one is whining about it as far as I know.

Pls define what you wanted to point out there if I got it wrong.

upier · Mar 07, 2008, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by nem coke

Pvp has many useless skills, that pve finds useful and no one is whining about it as far as I know.

Pls define what you wanted to point out there if I got it wrong.

But the skills that nobody uses in PvP but are usable in PvE - compared to something like Blackout on Shiro have an important difference.
The effect of the skill doesn't make the skill worth taking (eg. there are 8 better skills to put on ones skillbar then the one that is being left at home!) - compared to something like Blackout not WORKING as it should on Shiro.
So it's either a:
1. bug - which means that A.Net should fix Shiro so that Blackout disables his skills
2. PvE functions under different rules that make the skills have a different effect then the one listed in the skill itself

I would LOVE for Shiro to be blackouted, I'd LOVE for hexes to last their full time, I'd LOVE Skelies to leave a corpse or not be immune to certain conditions - but I think I am all out of luck there.
So we accept that PvE has different rules - and that the skills are not balanced in accordance with THOSE rules.
And that's why people bitch. Well - some of us. Some just like to bitch ...

Shuuda · Mar 07, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Nope, for the most part, PvE has the same mechanics as PvP.

- There are no "PvP Skills" They are the skills good players use.
- Stop segementing things further simply because you cannot see or accept the truth.
- Blackout was a great "PvP Skill" as well, and only good Mesmers could use it well (or Rangers, referring to the old R/Me GvG ranger).

RiKio · Mar 07, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Well....people hate balances because they kill the gimmicks people use.

The Meth · Mar 07, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

The effectiveness of blackout on bosses is irrelevant, mesmers don't exist in PvE. /sarcasm

That aside, its true that the mesmer is pretty badly equipped to handle PvE like people expect professions to. Energy denial is useless, interrupts are next to useless compared to what a ranger can put out, and single target shutdown isn't usually in demand. That is why only 1 out of 100 people are playing mesmer in pve.

The reason blackout doesn't work, that some enemies have half hex duration (wastrel's worry spam anyone?), is that without it PvE would be even easier. Do we really need PvE to be easier?

Shuuda · Mar 07, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

There such things as "PvEr Mesmer" it's a horrible sight in my eye, so aweful. They constantly try to prove that Mesmers are good in PvE, as if doing PvE is an achivement, no one really cares anymore.

pygar · Mar 07, 2008, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evaine

From what I've noticed, the skill updates aren't really "balances" and they don't seem to be tested before implementation.

This is very true, and many people are getting confused with the skill updates because of this- while some of this weeks changes were "balance" related issues, others are about changing the meta for the sake of "shaking things up" which is a good thing. (whether you PvE or PvP- change= good, stagnation=bad)

And yes, we are all openly play-testing these changes for A-net as we speak.... if the changes cause too much grief then A-net will re-tweak the trouble skills or even just revertt hem to how they were.

Toa Hahli · Mar 07, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

There such things as "PvEr Mesmer" it's a horrible sight in my eye, so aweful. They constantly try to prove that Mesmers are good in PvE, as if doing PvE is an achivement, no one really cares anymore.

As if PvP is an achievement no one really cares just a game, get over it

upier · Mar 07, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

The reason blackout doesn't work, that some enemies have half hex duration (wastrel's worry spam anyone?), is that without it PvE would be even easier. Do we really need PvE to be easier?

It would need to be different.
And if done right - it wouldn't have to be easier.
This would have to mean that those boring annoying smitters should be gone - and the groups would start to need to have some real monks (or they can have smitters NEXT to real monks!). When skills that are being used by monsters get changed - their builds would need to be adjusted.
That way the foes wouldn't be just something that stands in your way of getting to the end - but something that might actually hinder one in getting to the end!
BUT like I stated before - that would be best left for HM. A good HM - instead of just more cheating.

I know - it requires an insane amount of work - since it would basically mean that more then half of PvE would have to be re-written - and I know we'll never get it. So all we have left is to hope that MAYBE they will listen to the bitching and make better decisions in GW2.