Curse

fleshharvest · Aug 15, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Why not use [Foul Feast] instead of [Extinguish] on your orders nec? Energy and healing for your spamming-health-saccing nec. Plus, the recharge on it is insane.

DarkGanni · Aug 15, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by fleshharvest

Why not use [Foul Feast] instead of [Extinguish] on your orders nec? Energy and healing for your spamming-health-saccing nec. Plus, the recharge on it is insane.

That can do aswell

I chose Extinguish Due to party wide removal, will definitely try Foul Feast. Thanks

-Lotus- · Aug 15, 2008, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

there are plenty of shouts/chants that dont end on usage of attack/skill...
depends which route your Imbagon takes, here are some options:
Fall Back, Shields Up, Watch Yourselves(not that effective cause of SY but works on you), GftE, you can find many more but these are just a few examples...

none of those can be maintained without adrenaline (taking other adrenaline skills with SY is generally a bad idea). Pretty much the only option is ["They're on Fire!"] and thats expensive and useless when you have SY.

and how does GftE not end on the next attack?... thats all it does.

Racthoh · Aug 15, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

The warriors would work better as EA Dwayna Dervs. They keep themselves clean of hexes, heal themselves, get healed by enchantment ending, and get 14 scythe for bigger damage. The armor difference doesn't matter since SY is present.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

Abyssal's carry [Berserker Stance]

Physicals will deal enough damage to build the Abyssal's Earth Shaker with or without Berserker Stance in effect, or they'll kill it too quickly, or Great Dwarf Weapon/Hammer warrior will keep it perma-KDed, or it really doesn't matter because everyone has "I Am Unstoppable!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

Armored Cave Spiders carry [Melandru's Resilience]

I see one skill in the entire build that will trigger Mel's. Even if there was an overload of hexes/conditions I still wouldn't care about this stance enough to bring Wild Blow. If you can't kill one spider when it has +10 regen you probably can't make it to the cave to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zidane Ortef

Rock Borer Worms carry [Lightning Reflexes]

Really doesn't matter when you're Blind. That and they don't move/deal much damage. A grand total of 6 have to be killed to clear a path for the griffins; I'm not wasting a skill slot to deal with 6 enemies that Blind me anyway.

On that note condition removal is a waste in FoW. Heal the Blind and you're attacking into a block stance. Daze is almost non-existent. The other conditions don't matter in PvE/don't appear frequently enough in FoW.

Quote:

Fall Back, Shields Up, Watch Yourselves(not that effective cause of SY but works on you), GftE, you can find many more but these are just a few examples...

"Fall Back!" ends on attack, "Shield's Up!" doesn't have a 24/7 uptime (so you're not attacking faster 100% of the time with Soldier's Fury), and "Go For The Eyes!" ends on the next attack. Either way it doesn't justify wasting skill slots to make a bad skill work.

Also:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

Q. Why the warriors don't have an increased attack speed?
A. Consumables aren't very expensive Essence of Celerity gives 25% attack speed and 25% recharge on all skills, which allows me to put more skills on the warrior's bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

1. BiP is extremely cheap. Health sacrifice can be healed by monk with 1 spell for 5 energy, which is very little thanks to +6 energy regeneration.

A +6 BiP will restore 24 energy over its duration with an enchanting mod. Every spell in the game requires at least 5 energy with the exception of some necromancer spells with sacrifice as a cost. Since 5 of that 24 is used to heal the 33% sacrifice you're left with 19 energy to cast spells with assuming the monk (the only caster in the build who will be BiPped) is in a constant state of less than full energy. Overall you're looking at one Heal Party (880 health returned + Divine Favor bonus to the monk) or a combination of the other 5 energy spells. Alternatively Order of the Vampire at the current blood spec of 15 will return 16 health to each physical per hit. With a 6 second duration (enchanting mod) each warrior/paragon can hit 4 times for 64 health each (64x6=384), not including the additional hits from scythes or Crude Swing and Whirlwind Attack. This 384 can be doubled to 768 since BiP needs 12 seconds, twice the duration of Order of the Vampire, to provide its 880 health.

Granted there are other factors to consider. The physicals will not always be hitting, downtime of Order of the Vampire, health at max but that works against both spells (moreso to Heal Party however). Order of the Vampire is also cheaper than Order of Pain allowing for more Great Dwarf Weapon casting, in addition to freeing the slot Order of Pain is occupying. As Loot Junkie suggested Blood Ritual if the monk needs some assistance.

Let's go another step further. Given that the monk has 0 Protection Prayers no energy will be put to use before combat begins, and with "There's Nothing To Fear!"/"Save Yourselves!" present the monk will be doing very little when you engage. Personal experience tells me that with a group such as this the monk is only pressured for energy during Slaves of Menzies when we'd aggro 3-5 groups, in which case BiP won't stick for the full duration because of the Ancient Skale's Rend Enchantments. Otherwise the natural 4 pips was more than adequate at keeping the party stable. There will never be situations where the monk needs +10 regen unless your frontline really hates the monk.

Order of the Vampire by comparison will always be doing something for the entire duration of combat. The more frequently a skill is being put to use the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

2. Can be used on demand.

Physicals make bodies appear very quickly. A monk shouldn't need the energy from BiP before something has died.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

3. Range of well will be usually in the frontline. Frontliners usually have excellent e-management (adrenaline/Mysticism/Critical Strikes) and don't need it, and direct healing > regeneration from Well. And casters NEED energy. There is no such thing as too much energy for a monk.

I notice you have no qualms about Well of Blood though? For that matter wells will hit the frontline of 5 warriors compared to BiP being used on 1 monk. It's okay to use an elite skill to make up for one bad monk who can't manage energy?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

4. You don't need to have a corpse near you.

You're allowed to move when fighting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

5. If corpse is near enemies, you risk breaking aggro.

6 physicals, there is no aggro management here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

Use extinguish when necessary (especially against the skeletons on the battlefield as these incur blind on your warriors).

The skeletons only blind if you allow them to lay their traps. Recalling where the Skeleton Impalers pop up will prevent this. The groups that appear when the Gift of Griffins is taken will always compose of 5 enemies. If 3 skeletons are visible there will be 2 Impalers; 4 visible and there will be 1. One physical is all it takes to stop their trapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

EoE will reduce your clear time immensely.

No it won't. Look at the way the build deals damage and the group compositions of FoW to understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

I know about the armor cap and that I'm unstoppable's armor bonus won't really make effect but you already pointed out why I chose that.

KD's are virtually non-existent in FoW. If you use an Armor of Salvation the Abyssals can only KD with Earthshaker. Otherwise the other 5 physicals will kill the Abyssal while 1 person is knocked down, or Great Dwarf Weapon/Hammer Warrior KDs the Abyssal. Meteor Shower from the hydras can be avoided/diverted out of harm's way (kite away from your target before casting finishes). Alternatively bring an interrupt for its universal use throughout FoW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

Hexbreaker aria (this will help the necromancer and monk stay free of hexes)

Fixed. I wouldn't bank on Aura of Holy Might for the warriors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

Use Spear of fury for an additional adren boost.

Conditions are lacking for reliable adrenaline gain. I'd stick with "I Am The Strongest!" as a reliable damage boost or some other PvE skill. Asuran Scan is pretty beastly now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Lotus-

Pretty much the only option is "They're on Fire!" and thats expensive and useless when you have SY.

Leadership reduces the cost, but more importantly "They're on Fire!" means you need a constant source of burning to do anything useful. Otherwise a wasted slot. That and it's redundant with SY/TNTF reducing the bulk of damage.

Snow Bunny · Aug 15, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Racthoh - We'd already been using the build you guys gave us some months ago (we've modified it a tad for efficiency, but it remains essentially the same).

This build will clear in fairly comparable time - the only serious issue is the mage, but whatever.

This build is easier when it comes to grouping; people seem to have warriors more often then they have dervs.

Of course, the 3 derv, para, earthshaker, assassin, monk, orders is more efficient (especially with tweaks to the assassin and the newly buffed asuran scan) but this build allows for a bit more "grab and go."

And most people's critique of this build, aside from Racthoh, are pretty much dead wrong.

Except Racthoh, when you get into the forest, if you care about time, Condition removal becomes fairly essential - FF wins that though.

For the necro elite, [well of power] is good for corpse control, or [signet of removal] if you're feeling seriously pressure by hexes. I dislike Order of the Vampire, but whatever.

DarkGanni · Aug 15, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

@ Racthoh: Thanks I really appreciate the critique you made alot of very good points. That's the reason why I didn't take wild blow, those 3 stances mean very little and not worth wasting a slot for that.

When I was talking about blind was referring to the skeletal icehands with lightning touch.

@ Bunny: Yes I agree on the "grab and go" and the more warriors over dervs comment. With all the (now ex-ursans) around shouldn't be hard to form a pug (or at least I hope so).

- Ganni

Racthoh · Aug 17, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkGanni

When I was talking about blind was referring to the skeletal icehands with lightning touch.

Ah my bad. Forgot about that change. Granted an interrupt for Lightning Touch (and again the universal use of interrupts) allows you to free the condition removal slot. Being a touch range skill as it is the predictability should be possible to recognize, or even interrupting the water hexes/removing what sticks. A reduce blind rune would take the 10 seconds down to 8; so long as the paragon is clean of blind the defense could sustain until that time passes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Except Racthoh, when you get into the forest, if you care about time, Condition removal becomes fairly essential - FF wins that though.

Removing the 90% chance to miss of Blind to swing into the 75% chance to miss of Lightning Reflexes just doesn't seem worth it to me. Our route took the back entrance into the Wailing Lord's forest which allows you to skip every borer that pops up. While the physicals dealt with the Spirit Shepherds I'd order Livia to run up and take the Throw Dirts in the event of bad spawn that didn't allow us to sneak by without being hit with the Throw Dirt. On the way out through the front entrance I would attack the borers on my paragon to draw out their Lightning Reflexes while the others attacked Spirit Wood/Shepherds. Once engaged with the worms in melee it was just a matter of an Earthshaker or "You Move Like A Dwarf!" to interrupt the Throw Dirts. Other times Splinter/Barrage when they popped up balled in 3s works just as well.

The only time I ever felt condition removal to be worth it in FoW was at the release of Factions when I played a Blessed Light bar. The usefulness of an additional hex removal far outweighs the blind of a stationary enemy found in one area. My belief is the more often you're using the skill the better; if it's on your bar I would assume it's being put to use a lot and proves essential in sticky situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Of course, the 3 derv, para, earthshaker, assassin, monk, orders is more efficient (especially with tweaks to the assassin and the newly buffed asuran scan) but this build allows for a bit more "grab and go."

Quite. We learned that Dragon Slash bars were just too awkward to play with the speed of killing.

DarkGanni · Aug 18, 2008, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Hi, just a short notice that I'm still alive and improving the build.

So far have replaced Aura of holy might for Asuran scan, has cheaper energy and works alot better.

Also to make the run faster have been considering a Shadowform E/A for one of the melees and a 2nd monk. I cleared alot of FoW's annoying quests with the below posted E/A build. It will cut time by 30mins and probably even more.

Here's a screenshot of my idea:

As usual suggestions and critiques are welcome.

- Ganni

Chokey · Aug 18, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Looks pretty good if you ask me.

I'll have to try it once I get my account sorted.D'you need specifically high Asuran/Dwarven/Norn ranks or is it just the higher the better?

~Chokey

Spiritz · Aug 18, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

After seeing posts with ursans crying ( new and old ) its good to see Ganni showing the world - there is life Without Ursan .

Snow Bunny · Aug 18, 2008, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Ganni, with cons, you can take out the DH hexes monk for an orders with some hex removal.

The Paragon should also be using only SY! because of adrenal use, but to each his own I suppose.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 18, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Think the damage would be a bit better if their was an added splinter weapon and maybe one of the w/ds can bring chilling victory since energy shouldn't be an issue.

Most likely a rt/me perhaps that can bring expel hexes and other hex removals along with 14 channeling.

Snow Bunny · Aug 18, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

Most likely a rt/me perhaps that can bring expel hexes and other hex removals along with 14 channeling.

If you bring and N/Mo you can get Orders with GDW and [signet of removal] and [smite hex].

Add that to Cure hex and Remove hex on the monk and you have easily enough hex removal.

Loot Junkie · Aug 19, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31

I'll back Snow up on that, I ran the necro bar He described and hex removal is more than adequate.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 19, 2008, 12:36 AM // 00:36

The main reason wasn't so much for the hex removal, but a level 14 specced splinter weapon can deal a fair amount of damage and I think a channel/ resto rit hybrid could easily take the place of a monk.

That combined with a war bringing chilling victory could provide some nice aoe damage and quick spike over all. Atleast that is in my opinion/ theory I haven't really been able to use any testing or anything.

Just seemed like quite a bit of the protective skills wouldn't really be needed since their is a save yourselves spammer. Figured a rit throwing splinter weapons around and perhaps either life spirit or recovery (for any conditions required) plus some heals or hex removals could take the place and manage to aid the team in killing foes quicker which would result in less damage being taken.

DarkGanni · Aug 19, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Hi, once again thank you for your replies

I was still going up and down if to take that DH monk or not, looks like I'll keep him out.

@ Bunny: I also considered [Empathic Removal] on the necro instead of [Signet of removal] I see it a much more reliable elite.

Thoughts?

- Ganni

MercenaryKnight · Aug 20, 2008, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Yes the buff to empathic removal is good and will remove more hexes/ conditions even if there is no enchant. Also the little heal bonus would be decent just because it's extra.

A11Eur0 · Sep 03, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

So...what happened to this? I never see anybody looking to run this in ToA...and Ganni hasn't been online at all. All this work wasted. :\

-Lotus- · Sep 03, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

there wasnt a ton of work in this... just a bonch of builds that work well stuck together and tweaked to synergize a little. this is way to complex for PuGs to run anyways. theres no nuking or tanks.

Cathode_Reborn · Sep 03, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I'd use Aura of Holy Might over Pious Assault - tons more damage.