Curse

Dr Strangelove · Jan 23, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

First of all, a necromancer does tend to have pretty decent energy when things do go bad. At least, he tends to have better energy than everyone around him.

Second, WoR is a skill that's got practically unconditional condition removal, it's practically uninterruptable and needs to be slowed 4x to get as slow to cast as Spirit Light - a very fast cast - and it always provides the exact same effect regardless of the presence of spirits.

When things go to hell, generally speaking, an extra five (or ten if you're lucky) pips of health regeneration isn't going to save the day. The raw healing power of both spells isn't great, but WoR recharges faster, provides more spam capability, and includes a secondary effect that can very well be most useful.

70 (or however much) health isn't going to save anyone either. If you really want more happy spam stuff, add ghostmirror light in. If you want a fast cast "oh shit" spell, add spirit transfer.

The big message here is that every elite you stick on that bar is going to suck. Thinking about it, you may be better off without one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

This isn't true. Their function isn't the same at all. SV deals focused damage to a priority target. The fact that the target isn't called for focused fire means nothing.

Spiteful Spirit pressures and kills PvE mobs on its own. There is no single character in the game capable of delivering more damage per second to a PvE mob than an SS necromancer.

The point is that you don't want to throw spiteful spirit on whatever target your physicals are beating the hell out of, or it'll do a pathetic amount of damage in the 2 seconds it lasts. It provides incidental softening up on the rest of the mob when cast on an off target.

Spoil victor is nearly useless against large numbers of enemies, but is nice against bosses. In general PvE, you throw it on a non-focused target so it'll actually proc. Against bosses it works well whether they're focused or not, as they have huge amounts of health.

Icy veins works best on whatever is going to die soonest, or the focused target.

Moloch Vein · Jan 24, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

^ Well, that was kind of my point as well. The discussion wasn't "Weapon of Remedy versus a non-Elite bar", it was "Weapon of Remedy versus Spirit Light Weapon" and "Weapon of Remedy versus Icy Veins". Still, though, I usually bring Weapon of Remedy, Weapon of Warding, Wielder's Boon, Mend Body And Soul and Spirit Light. (+PwK & Life & DPSig)

As an "oh shit" spell Spirit Transfer isn't very good, because that is completely dependent on a spirit being in the area, and with the busy job of spamming the spells sometimes you get a non-effect for 10 energy, which is really not so fun.

Ghostmirror Light I think is kinda meh compared to WoR, it's the normal 1s cast, it heals for approximately the same (not much), and it has a conditional secondary effect that is usually not all that meaningful. The point isn't WoR saving anyone on its own, it's the combination of a number of fast-casting spells saving the target.

Invader of Dreams · Jan 25, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

I happen to love Blood Magic Necros. As long as you have good energy management, its a great thing to be. You have to have Angorodons Gaxe though, Signet of lost souls is helpful too.

Ensign · Jan 25, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

70 (or however much) health isn't going to save anyone either. If you really want more happy spam stuff, add ghostmirror light in. If you want a fast cast "oh shit" spell, add spirit transfer.

It's 63, and you can't throw it at someone who already has Warding on them. It's effective as an emergency heal on a spiked target in PvP because it'll clear the Deep Wound before it can trigger; that isn't relevant in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The big message here is that every elite you stick on that bar is going to suck. Thinking about it, you may be better off without one.

If you don't want to throw Icy Veins on called targets then yeah, I'd probably run without an elite. After WoW, Spirit Light, MBS, Protective, and Life, there are tons of things better than the Restoration elites for PvE - Weapon of Shadow or Resilient Weapon, Spirit Transfer or Wielder's Boon, Recuperation or Recovery, just for starters, plus a Deathpact if you want it. There are PvE skills you can take. Not taking Recuperation on at least one N/Rt if you have one at all is a mistake; how much room do you really have?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

The point is that you don't want to throw spiteful spirit on whatever target your physicals are beating the hell out of, or it'll do a pathetic amount of damage in the 2 seconds it lasts. It provides incidental softening up on the rest of the mob when cast on an off target.

Maximal usage of Spiteful Spirit involves putting it on the least important targets in a mob; Paragons are ideal between importance and position, as you'll sometimes get splash damage off the Spiteful onto targets that matter. You don't bother putting it onto the casters that you're going to clean out first though.

It does do a very good job of working the health down on those leftover physicals though. Sometimes, if your group is slow, it'll kill them on its own; otherwise it tends to at least make a big dent. One of the nice effects it has is that if you're having trouble killing a mob, it tends to do enough damage to physicals that the mob's Monks start throwing heals at them, making it much easier to drop whatever it is you really want to drop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Spoil victor is nearly useless against large numbers of enemies, but is nice against bosses.

It's best use is when you want to blow up, say, an Ele in the mob, and you can throw it on the Monk. That way oftentimes the Monk will be pretty rocked once you kill the Ele, and you get two kills in quick succession out of it. It's best put on healers while you kill other things by a wide margin in PvE.

I'm not actually a fan of it against bosses. Caster bosses, outside of Prophecies, are sufficiently lethal that I don't think letting them cast is a good trade, even if they are eating 100 damage per. I'd rather daze the thing, knocklock it with Great Dwarf Weapon, or the equivalent to take it out of the game while it dies. If you do that, Spoil Victor does not trigger very often. Physical bosses tend to be sufficiently non-lethal with weakness on them that they aren't a priority to kill; let the swing weakened while you kill the rest of the mob. Not that it's bad, it will set up the boss nicely to be killed quickly, but that's about it.

Basically it's good for scoring a 2nd or 3rd kill shortly after the first, provided that kill is a Monk or a boss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

As soon as enemies reach your own level or higher, generally speaking, SS will be a lot stronger. The exact cutpoint is open to debate.

I can't comment on the way anyone else plays, only myself. Against mobs that are my own level, Icy Veins tends to be stronger than Spiteful Spirit, because mobs that are my own level blow up in less than 5 seconds. Icy Veins still does full damage to casters, and more in an AoE when it dies - it very often does more damage than Spiteful would. Spiteful only does more damage if I put it on the very last mob that I'm going to kill, and while it would be numerically superior there who cares? It isn't until I'm dealing with bigger, level 24-28 mobs that Spiteful starts to really pull its weight, when things don't die so quickly. Of course by that point Icy Veins starts getting rocked by armor and becomes bad, so there really isn't any contest between the two.

Cosmic Error · Feb 07, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Blood magic got a major buff, obviously. Now that Dark Pact is almost at the same level as Blood of the Agressor, I thought maybe a build with those skills and Vampiric Spirit would work. (A build using this general idea was recently posted in a different topic.)

What do you think?

Draginvry · Feb 08, 2008, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

What do you think?

I dunno, I haven't checked the changes to Dark Pact. But I tried a DP/VS build before, and it was epic fail because of the limited range of Vampiric Spirit. VS can be pretty usefull with PBAoE spells because you can hit and run. Dark Pact takes too many castings to effectivly damage someone.

Vampiric Spirit looks good on paper because you can rack up a lot of life steal with only a moderate increase in energy costs. But IMHO, it requires you to be standing way too close to the action. And unless they changed it recently, you still lose the 3 energy even if you aren't close enough to trigger the life steal.

I did have a lot of fun making a Flame Burst / Vampiric spammer. They have the same range and short recharge. It's a lot of fun if you can find a way to manage your energy levels.

Maybe I'll log on tomorrow and see this buff to Dark Pact you are referring to.

isisaset · Feb 09, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

On occasion I run a degen/vamp blood build when called for (i.e., Cyndr or Great Destroyer type situations). With that type of build, you have to realize the damage will never reach SS levels (oh how I love my SS), but instant damage isn't the point - it's continued decrease of foe's hp that you are trying to accomplish.

Other comments.... Orders is generally useful only when you're with a B/P Ranger party. And SV has it's place (couple bosses in the game that it helps against), but "in the field" so to speak, it's hard to find a foe with more life than you ^^

Moloch Vein · Feb 09, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by isisaset

Other comments.... Orders is generally useful only when you're with a B/P Ranger party.

Orders are used in several physical/N synergy teams including both Dark Fury, Order of Pain and Order of the Vampire (if we're talking about PvE here...) Perhaps you should rather say that B/P is the only thing you ever used Orders with?

One example, the henchmen in Hells Precipice are stunningly bad. For some reason the physicals are less stunningly so because at least you can reach some synergy playing N (gl to do that with a hench ele...). Doing that mission in HM with henchmen (because I'm a bastard with no life sitting up alone when my friends have gone to bed) definitely got more rewarding using OoP/DF.

isisaset · Feb 09, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Orders are used in several physical/N synergy teams including both Dark Fury, Order of Pain and Order of the Vampire (if we're talking about PvE here...) Perhaps you should rather say that B/P is the only thing you ever used Orders with?

True, very true.

Actually, the visual that came to mind reading the original question about Orders was one of the Tomb (of the Primeval Kings) green runs and the hordes of B/P groups shouting "LF Orders to go".

But you are correct, there are other instances - that just stands out for me because of the constant whispers "are you Orders?" lol

Sha Noran · Jul 13, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

There is no single character in the game capable of delivering more damage per second to a PvE mob than an SS necromancer.

lol o rly? r u shur?

-Lotus- · Jul 13, 2008, 08:37 AM // 08:37

ehh, its possible. i cant think of anything that deals more damage than a good SS

Moloch Vein · Jul 13, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

lol o rly? r u shur?

Yes, I'm sure. At least, I was sure until I made the AP/MoP build, which is now the highest-DPS build in the game for general HM/PvE play.

Still, in a tank-n-spank configuration group, SS probably still beats it.

By the way, thread necromancy ftw!