Curse

DRGN · Jan 21, 2008, 04:36 PM // 16:36

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Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Well, if you really want to run a blood bar in PvE, it's probably a mistake to skip past [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] and [skill]oppressive gaze[/skill]

Is that even worthwhile anymore after they killed Oppressive Gaze with the 50%> clause?

Moloch Vein · Jan 21, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Oppressive Gaze is kinda an afterthought nowadays, and was never much strong in PvE, but dual-speccing into Curses for Enfeebling Blood and some other utility is pretty mandatory unless you run with a second N doing Curses. Of course, I don't know why you would be running Blood in PvE without said Curses guy at your side, but that's a different story...

Xylia · Jan 21, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

Well, if you really want to run a blood bar in PvE, it's probably a mistake to skip past [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] and [skill]oppressive gaze[/skill]

Enfeebling blood is curses, despite the name of the skill.

Arkantos · Jan 21, 2008, 05:22 PM // 17:22

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Originally Posted by Xylia

Enfeebling blood is curses, despite the name of the skill.

I think he knows that, but read the description of oppressive gaze. Extra damage against foes with weakness. Enfeebling blood is AoE weakness, which doesn't really need a high spec into curses to be useful.

Xylia · Jan 21, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

I think he knows that, but read the description of oppressive gaze. Extra damage against foes with weakness. Enfeebling blood is AoE weakness, which doesn't really need a high spec into curses to be useful.

Huh. Guess I never really noticed that before. Also, as is alluded to above, the skill description has been changed from what appears in the pop up, and now only steals from foes with less than 50% health. It's sort of an inverse shadow strike, with AoE capability, less damage, higher casting cost, and a conditional requirement.

Racthoh · Jan 21, 2008, 08:05 PM // 20:05

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Also considering you spec into both Blood and Channeling your Soul Reaping can't be that high.

Blood Magic: 10 + 1
Channeling: 10
Soul Reaping: 11 + 2

Meets all the necessary breakpoints; +5 on Blood Renewal, next 4 attacks on Splinter Weapon, 4 energy return on Masochism, 9 energy on Signet of Lost Souls.

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Grasping was Kuurong

That's probably one of the worst elites in the entire game. Low lightning damage and a KD every 20 seconds for 15 energy?

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Weapon of Fury

You already have Dark Fury.

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Soul Leech

Could be useful to make up for the health sac. But as Ensign mention it's just like Spoil Victor and will just be dealing incidental damage on a target if you want to get any use out of it.

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Wail of Doom

If I want to shutdown physicals I'd spec into curses for Enfeebling Blood.

Moloch Vein · Jan 21, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

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Originally Posted by Racthoh

That's probably one of the worst elites in the entire game. Low lightning damage and a KD every 20 seconds for 15 energy?

An AoE KD every 20 seconds is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

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You already have Dark Fury.

An energy-management utility with added energy gain and weapon trigger is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

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Could be useful to make up for the health sac. But as Ensign mention it's just like Spoil Victor and will just be dealing incidental damage on a target if you want to get any use out of it.

An armor-ignoring 66%-of-the-time caster counter with a self-heal is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

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If I want to shutdown physicals I'd spec into curses for Enfeebling Blood.

An every-15-seconds unconditional interrupt spell with near complete single-target physical shutdown if necessary is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

Oh, and incidentally, you really do not need to spec 13 in Soul Reaping for that support function. You can get away with 10, especially running Masochism, and still have stuff to spare to boost Channeling and Blood Magic, which would be the better play. Of course, that would mean getting rid of the low unfocused AoE damage when things die

Note, I do not claim that all the elites I listed above are wtfpwn choices, or even good choices. I just claimed they were stronger than Icy Veins in any serious PvE setting.

Arkantos · Jan 21, 2008, 10:30 PM // 22:30

The problem is those elites aren't better in a serious PvE setting. In a serious PvE setting, you'll be fighting mobs of 10+ enemies. As long as you spam Icy Veins on enemies that are going to die, the damage is going to add up. If your party doesn't suck, enemies will die rather quickly. Once enemies start dying, the entire mob is going to start taking AoE damage from Icy Veins. I find it quite funny that you think Grasping was Kuurong is better then Icy Veins. It just proves that you've clearly never ran Icy Veins, and I highly doubt you've run Grasping was Kuurong unless you like using horrible elites.

Moloch Vein · Jan 21, 2008, 10:44 PM // 22:44

^ I think you have probably never run Icy Veins on your own character. If you had actually run Icy Veins on your own character you would've seen for yourself how bad its damage output is versus a high-level PvE mob.

No, I think what you've done is put the elite on a hero. And, what do you know, the hero works. Of course it works. All you're liable to see from him is the numbers from OoP, the Dark Fury bliss, the Splinter Weapon. And hey, Icy Veins has this cool little animation when things die. Surely that can't be bad?!

You claim the damage "stacks up". Sure, it stacks up. A lot of things stack up. That doesn't make them good skills.

Spamming a 10e hex, to bank on an abysmal damage return if and when the target dies, is neither economical nor sound. And claiming I don't know anything about a certain N elite for lack of experience with it is... well, kinda funny

Jagged · Jan 21, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

This is very depressing. While i've only been playing about 3 months, i'm finishing the 4th campaign, solely as a Blood Necro. I'm using SAB's builds for my heroes and don't think I could do better at Curse or MM then they do.

My bar is essentially:
Angorodon's Gaze
Vampiric Gaze
Signet of Lost Souls
Life Siphon
Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support
"Finish Him!"
"You Move Like a Dwarf!"
Echo (E) (Mesmer)

I usually open with Echoed Assassins which stun a mob and use Finish Him on them. They die in seconds. Then I just spam the Blood skills. Energy is usually not an issue. Is this horrible?

Bowstring Badass · Jan 21, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Spamming a 10e hex,

Despite getting getting your energy back in the middle of it.. Necro's still have no problem with spamming 10 energy hexes imo... Icy veins is a good skill if you use it on 50% or lower targets (takes 2 seconds) the damage will add up pretty damn quick.

Racthoh · Jan 21, 2008, 11:17 PM // 23:17

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

An AoE KD every 20 seconds is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

You'd have to run up to the ball of enemies and drop it for that KD. I could put three Icy Veins on a target in the time it takes for Grasping to recharge, and with Splinter Weapon, guarentee those targets are dying soon after the application.

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An energy-management utility with added energy gain and weapon trigger is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

Energy management? For who? The only ones who can take advantage of the energy return aspect of Weapon of Fury are physicals who are attacking normally. But given the duration of it, you'd be better off running Blood Ritual; but when was the last time a warrior, ranger, dervish, assassin, or paragon called for a Blood Ritual? And taking up that weapon slot means you can't splinter and blow stuff up.

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An armor-ignoring 66%-of-the-time caster counter with a self-heal is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

If I want something to die I'm putting my physicals on that target. Spoil Victor is useful against groups with multiple healers; stick it on one while your physicals kill the other.

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An every-15-seconds unconditional interrupt spell with near complete single-target physical shutdown if necessary is better than some low unfocused AoE damage when things die.

If I want interrupts, I'll bring BHA. If I want to shutdown one physical... well, I don't. I'll bring Enfeebling Blood, Defensive Anthem, Aegis, Ward Melee, etc... because any encounter with a physical is going to have multiple physicals and shutting down just one is nothing special.

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Oh, and incidentally, you really do not need to spec 13 in Soul Reaping for that support function. You can get away with 10, especially running Masochism, and still have stuff to spare to boost Channeling and Blood Magic, which would be the better play. Of course, that would mean getting rid of the low unfocused AoE damage when things die

You can probably move around the attributes for sure. That build is something I run on my heroes personally, with the main idea being to power out Dark Fury, Order of Pain, and Splinter Weapon. The bar is tooled to that design, with Blood Renewal just to help the hero heal itself a little.

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Note, I do not claim that all the elites I listed above are wtfpwn choices, or even good choices. I just claimed they were stronger than Icy Veins in any serious PvE setting.

I know Icy Veins isn't all that good. The only other options I would consider would be Offering of Blood/Spirit, or Reaper's Mark to power out more of the three spells I listed. But since the hero manages the energy well enough there is no reason to make any change.

Arkantos · Jan 21, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

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Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

^ I think you have probably never run Icy Veins on your own character. If you had actually run Icy Veins on your own character you would've seen for yourself how bad its damage output is versus a high-level PvE mob.

No, I think what you've done is put the elite on a hero. And, what do you know, the hero works. Of course it works. All you're liable to see from him is the numbers from OoP, the Dark Fury bliss, the Splinter Weapon. And hey, Icy Veins has this cool little animation when things die. Surely that can't be bad?!

You claim the damage "stacks up". Sure, it stacks up. A lot of things stack up. That doesn't make them good skills.

Spamming a 10e hex, to bank on an abysmal damage return if and when the target dies, is neither economical nor sound. And claiming I don't know anything about a certain N elite for lack of experience with it is... well, kinda funny

As a matter of fact I do run it on my necro. When you have a SS and MM necro hero, there's really not a whole lot to do. SS necro deals AoE damage, MM necro deals AoE damage, so I decided I might as well try to fit an AoE damage skill on my bar. I chose Icy Veins, to see how it works. Sure, the damage isn't as much as SS, but it's not bad damage.

My point is, on a support bar like an order necro, where by the time you're done using your support skills, this skill isn't bad. Sure it's not uber great, but it's better then the skills you suggested, and it's better then the other elite options you have in blood/channeling/soul reaping when your party is mainly AoE.

Moloch Vein · Jan 22, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

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Originally Posted by Arkantos

As a matter of fact I do run it on my necro. When you have a SS and MM necro hero, there's really not a whole lot to do. SS necro deals AoE damage, MM necro deals AoE damage, so I decided I might as well try to fit an AoE damage skill on my bar. I chose Icy Veins, to see how it works. Sure, the damage isn't as much as SS, but it's not bad damage.

If you're running the IV on yourself as a necromancer, and the SS and MM on heroes, I think you're making a major mistake. Heroes don't at all use a spell like SS, Enfeebling, or whatever particularly good. They don't place their hexes properly, they don't prioritize their hexes properly, and they don't cover their hexes properly. IV is a real dumb spell that you can put on anyone, anytime. That, however, doesn't mean it's much good.

The point of "I kill stuff with physicals", as Racthoh put it, isn't a valid one. I respect Racthoh, and I know he's a good PvE player. That said he does concentrate on physicals and if he was truly interested in optimizing his casters, he wouldn't run IV. No matter what your physical damage output is, you can't go _wrong_ with more damage or more utility. IV doesn't provide that utility. If Racthoh "kills stuff with physicals", as he says, then why would he run IV? IV is a damage spell, albeit a terrible one. The same thing holds for interrupts, knockdowns or whatever. You judge effect versus effect. Is GwK bad? YES, it's bad. That said I'd rather have a hero run GwK and manage maybe a KD or two every 20 seconds than waste time and energy spamming IV.

Regarding Weapon Of Fury: Yes, it's overkill. Still, Splinter Weapon recharges in 5 and the hero isn't going to be able to spam it over the entire party. WoF will also give "weapon" which makes for some trigger-spells being more effective. Incidentally, I'd rather run Warmonger's on a non-Elite bar than run IV as the elite. And it might be better to replace WoF with Warmonger's, or another Weapon spell.

Soul Leech will do better, focused damage than IV. It will also support the caster. SV will definitely do better, focused damage than IV. If you don't need chock amounts of adrenaline for whatever reason, OoV is a better spell as an elite than IV. IV often outputs damage when it is the least needed. All of these spells are far more economical than IV.

I have tried using IV for various things in PvE, and the only real use I've found for it has been farming Ornate Grawl Necklaces. There is almost no PvE build I can think of where I can't think of a superior replacement.

Carinae · Jan 22, 2008, 02:39 AM // 02:39

I tried IV when I was farming Destroyers. Granted it was a wonky build, I was the MM (with IV) and I had two specialized SS necros with me. I wasn't overly impressed with the damage and it didn't provide me with the "mob killer" I was looking for. I didn't however have a build setup specifically around spamming IV.

Tainted worked better there IMHO.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 22, 2008, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Oops, completely forgot about the nerf to oppressive gaze. However, it does drive home the point the the only way to give blood useful utility is to grab toys from other attributes.

blue.rellik · Jan 22, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

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Originally Posted by Racthoh

Energy management? For who? The only ones who can take advantage of the energy return aspect of Weapon of Fury are physicals who are attacking normally. But given the duration of it, you'd be better off running Blood Ritual; but when was the last time a warrior, ranger, dervish, assassin, or paragon called for a Blood Ritual? And taking up that weapon slot means you can't splinter and blow stuff up.

Just a small tidbit but I find Weapon of Fury to be a nice skill on a ranger who is Rampaging as One. With a zealous weapon and WoF, I was able to maintain RaO easily while still pumping out attack skills

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Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I tried IV when I was farming Destroyers. Granted it was a wonky build, I was the MM (with IV) and I had two specialized SS necros with me. I wasn't overly impressed with the damage and it didn't provide me with the "mob killer" I was looking for. I didn't however have a build setup specifically around spamming IV.

Tainted worked better there IMHO.

Well Destroyers are pretty durable

AshenX · Jan 22, 2008, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Bloodspike FTW Dr Stragelove. I have always loved those two together.

zling · Jan 22, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

SV isnt all that bad in PvE.
Soul Leech isnt all that bad in PvE.
Blood Magic in general isnt all that bad in PvE.
the problem is that you're not looking for "not that bad in PvE" you're looking for "Good in PvE" or even "Great in PvE"

with that in mind, if you're sick and tired of Curses and MMs or just really love Blood Magic than go ahead and play it...

Draginvry · Jan 22, 2008, 11:27 PM // 23:27

I love blood builds. The only problem is that they are kind of useless without some kind of gimmick. The gimmick usually being WoP or OoP.

I normally run a blood Necrosis necro carrying either Well of Blood or Order of Pain. It's not nearly as powerful as MM, but it's still usefull.