Curse

Cosmic Error · Jan 19, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

I'm starting to think you're more qualified to give information about Warriors than Necromancers. I realize that Blood Magic is more about the enchantments and hexes than DD, much like Water Magic. Claiming that all blood magic skills except the warrior-enhancing ones shows you have a narrow view of how the game is played.

Stormlord Alex · Jan 19, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

Claiming that all blood magic skills except the warrior-enhancing ones shows you have a narrow view of how the game is played.

Actually, it is almost true.
Tearing shit to pieces with physicals = win.

I'm just not thinking like that right now because my necro is addicted to Sabway, where only really SV isn't covered, and you don't gain near enough as much strength from DF/OoP.

[DE] · Jan 19, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

I'm starting to think you're more qualified to give information about Warriors than Necromancers. I realize that Blood Magic is more about the enchantments and hexes than DD, much like Water Magic. Claiming that all blood magic skills except the warrior-enhancing ones shows you have a narrow view of how the game is played.

Blood magic is good for 3 things

1. Blood Ritual
2. Orders
3. Touch Ranger

Arkantos · Jan 19, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Icy Veins??!! You're kidding? Do you actually know how bad that damage is? Hell, I'd rather run Life Tranfer on a Blood necro with Orders, and that's not saying much...

Other than that, I agree, you'll want to run a lot of AoE in PvE... but there aren't that many armor ignoring AoE spells in the game. In the Blood line SV is by far the best elite for general purpose.

On an orders necro you'll generally go 12 + 1 + x blood, 12 + 1 soul reaping. Look at icy veins at 13 soul reaping. 79 initial damage, not that great. 98 AoE damage when the enemy dies is nice. Seeing as it's on a 5 second recharge, you can spam it. Spamming it will make enemies blow up. If you'd rather run an elite hex that gives you regen/enemy degen that can be kept up for 10 seconds with a 30 second recharge as opposed to an elite hex that does AoE damage and can be spammed, that's saying quite a lot.

Quote:

I'm starting to think you're more qualified to give information about Warriors than Necromancers. I realize that Blood Magic is more about the enchantments and hexes than DD, much like Water Magic. Claiming that all blood magic skills except the warrior-enhancing ones shows you have a narrow view of how the game is played.

Blood magic offense sucks. Blood magic support is alright. Blood magic physical buffs are very good. It's not a narrow view at all, it's the truth. Generally people only use blood necros in elite areas/physical heavy parties. Pugs will want BiPs in their party for the elite areas. What does the BiP necro bring? OoP and DF (OoP if there are pretty much any amount of physicals in the party, DF if there are warriors/paragons in the party). What doesn't it bring? Offensive skills. Why? Because the offensive skills the blood line has to offer are crap.

Moloch Vein · Jan 19, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

On an orders necro you'll generally go 12 + 1 + x blood, 12 + 1 soul reaping. Look at icy veins at 13 soul reaping. 79 initial damage, not that great. 98 AoE damage when the enemy dies is nice. Seeing as it's on a 5 second recharge, you can spam it. Spamming it will make enemies blow up. If you'd rather run an elite hex that gives you regen/enemy degen that can be kept up for 10 seconds with a 30 second recharge as opposed to an elite hex that does AoE damage and can be spammed, that's saying quite a lot.

The damage from Life Transfer, Soul Leech and Spoil Victor is absolute. Oh, by the way, Life Tranfer is still terrible. The damage from Icy Veins is abysmal versus any high level PvE foe, because it is armor dependant.

Arkantos · Jan 19, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

The damage from Life Transfer, Soul Leech and Spoil Victor is absolute. Oh, by the way, Life Tranfer is still terrible. The damage from Icy Veins is abysmal versus any high level PvE foe, because it is armor dependant.

But when enough enemies have it on them and your party can efficiently kill things, it's a good skill. Against an enemy with 100 armor, it will still do 49 damage. Sure that's pretty bad alone, but again when it's on multiple enemies and your party can efficiently kill enemies, it adds up. Add a minion bomber and splinter weapon and you'll be able to get every enemy down to low health easily.

[DE] · Jan 19, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

[skill]Icy Veins[/skill][skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Order of Pain[/skill][skill]Dark Fury[/skill][skill]Blood Renewal[/skill][skill]masochism[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Flesh of My Flesh[/skill]

Icy Veins can work very well when put int the context of a support bar.

Cosmic Error · Jan 19, 2008, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

What does the BiP necro bring? OoP and DF

Actually, they bring Blood is Power.

DRGN · Jan 19, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

Actually, they bring Blood is Power.

Because we all know that when you run a BiPer, you lose the other 7 slots on your bar. Seriously, if you want constructive criticism of your build, making asinine little comments like that will get you nowhere. Grow up.

Arkantos · Jan 19, 2008, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

Actually, they bring Blood is Power.

Run out of constructive things to say?

As long as there are physicals in your party, your BiP necro will bring OoP unless he's stupid. If there are warriors/paragons, he will also bring DF.

Cosmic Error · Jan 19, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

I'm sorry, I'm not nearly as good with necromancers as I am with Ritualists, and I understand that you are the one who should be giving me advice, and not the other way around. I'm actually using a SS nuker right now on my necro, and you're right, it works infinitely better than DD Blood Magic. The only that's still ticking me off is that necromancers have to use cookie-cutter builds in order to be effective.

-Minion Master
-Minion Bomber
-Orders Necro
-SS Nuker
-BiP battery

Is that all that works? Surely at least some of the other 99% of the existing necromancer skills have some use?

Arkantos · Jan 19, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Generally those are the best builds your necro can run (except for BiP necro, it's a pretty bad build unless you're in a pug). So yes, there are few elites that are really useful, but necros have a lot of other skills to use.

Take a look at the curse line. In PvE a curse necro will generally go SS. You'll most likely be running signet of lost souls and a res too. That leaves you with 5 slots. Honestly, these slots can be anything.

[skill]Barbs[/skill] [skill]Defile Enchantments[/skill] [skill]Desecrate Enchantments[/skill] [skill]Defile Flesh[/skill] [skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill] [skill]Insidious Parasite[/skill] [skill]Mark of Pain[/skill] [skill]Parasitic Bond[/skill] [skill]Reckless Haste[/skill] [skill]Rend Enchantments[/skill] [skill]Rip Enchantment[/skill]

Depending on the situation, those skills are all good. Seeing as you have 5 spare slots, you can be creative with the skills you pick. Of course you can't forget your secondary profession. There are many, many secondary skills that will be useful on your necromancer.

Really, I wouldn't call them cookie cutter builds, I'd call them general outlines for builds. There are so many useful skills a necro can use, there really isn't one build that everyone is using. Sure there are many players using spiteful spirit, but there aren't many necros running the exact same bar.

Biostem · Jan 19, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

I think part of the problem is that you look at the damage blood magic skills do, and they don't really stand out, and the fact that they ignore armor (generally) and heal the caster isn't all that useful in a well put-together team.

A blood necro isn't going to outperform an ele in pure damage, so they have to look at the gimmicks or other buffs that they can provide but others cannot. That's where the "orders" and BiP type skills come into play.

The question, then, becomes whether those tricks are enough to justify a heavy investment in blood magic in the first place, (especially considering the alternatives...).

Cosmic Error · Jan 19, 2008, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Thanks! I think i'll stick with an anti-melee Curses build.

blakecraw · Jan 19, 2008, 10:21 PM // 22:21

basically, in pve, you could out-damage any blood build by either taking [skill]spiteful spirit[/skill] or [skill]animate bone fiend[/skill] and no other skills. Abusing pve mechanics (ie stupid enemies, lots of them, and lots of deaths) to do multi-target dmg is how you win pve, and blood doesn't do that very well.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 20, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Run out of constructive things to say?

As long as there are physicals in your party, your BiP necro will bring OoP unless he's stupid. If there are warriors/paragons, he will also bring DF.

I've never felt that adding in adrenaline boosters in PvE was as awesome as it is in PvP. Most good warriors are running FGJ! and dragon slash, so they're pretty much set. Most paragons have spear of fury or another adrenaline booster, making it of questionable value.

OoV and OoP are both pretty cool if you can find other stuff to fill out your bar.

Ensign · Jan 20, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

I don't think that Spoil Victor is bad at all in PvE, but I'm also not a huge fan of the skill. Like Spiteful, it's a skill that you tend to put on non-priority targets to deal a lot of incidental damage while you focus on someone else. It shines in a few situations, such as putting it on one Monk while you focus another one, to sap a lot of health from it while it heals; it's also decent at wearing down a boss quickly if you aren't shutting him down hard with Great Dwarf Weapon or Daze. Against most mobs, though, I feel like it just takes a bit off the top of non-priority targets. It's significantly better if you're playing alongside a Minion Master in a Necro-heavy team, as it actually can take a decent chunk out of a monster attacking minions. I consider it about on par with Spiteful, albeit in a much weaker attribute.

Order of Pain and Blood Ritual, and their elite equivalents, are the main reasons to take blood skills. They work rather well at moderate or low spec, respectively, however, so you don't need to dedicate a character to them.

Necrosis is better than the rest of the attribute.

Moloch Vein · Jan 21, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phantom

[skill]Icy Veins[/skill][skill]Splinter Weapon[/skill][skill]Order of Pain[/skill][skill]Dark Fury[/skill][skill]Blood Renewal[/skill][skill]masochism[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Flesh of My Flesh[/skill]

Icy Veins can work very well when put int the context of a support bar.

In PvE, that's a fine build for a person understanding physicals but not understanding necromancers. All the power from that build comes from Order of Pain - which does armor ignoring damage - and Splinter Weapon - which does armor ignoring damage. Secondary effect comes from Dark Fury. Also considering you spec into both Blood and Channeling your Soul Reaping can't be that high. Icy Veins should be replaced on that bar, with just about anything. "Anything" includes Weapon of Fury, Grasping was Kuurong, Soul Leech, Spoil Victor, Wail of Doom, all of which are stronger than Icy Veins for this build.

Cebe · Jan 21, 2008, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

Necro/Mesmer

Blood Magic 12+1+3
All remaining points dumped into Soul Reaping

[card]Vampiric Gaze[/card]
[card]Unholy Feast[/card]
[card]Shadow Strike[/card]
[card]Vampiric Swarm[/card]
[card]Barbed Signet[/card]
[card]Offering of Blood[/card]
[card]Arcane Echo[/card]
[card]Resurrection Signet[/card]

Granted, it's not going to be winning any Hero's Ascent matches, but it actually works really well in PvE, and i've even gotten some thank-yous from Monks who were sick of healing suicidal BiP batteries.

Let the flaming begin...

In response to the OP:
What are you echoing in particular, just out of interest?

Anyhoo, I always found Factions to be the "King" of Blood Magic, and not only because of Spoil Victor. Not too dissimilar to yours I think, one of my preferred (Pre-EotN) blood builds is:
[skill]Cultist's Fervor[/skill][skill]Blood Drinker[/skill][skill]Vampiric Gaze[/skill][skill]Strip Enchantment[/skill][skill]Unholy Feast[/skill][skill]Shadow Strike[/skill][skill]Resilient Weapon[/skill][skill]Flesh of my Flesh[/skill]

...I say Pre-EotN...Angorodon's Gaze could easily be slipped in there these days (not played it since EotN release), and Masochism, though I doubt Masochism and Signet of Lost Souls are necessary - Cultist's Fervor with an enchanting weapon almost lasts it's recharge. I used a low HP armor set with a double HCT Blood / +20% Enchanting Blood Magic staff.

I had a lot of fun playing with it at any rate, and you can spam blood skills until the minions come home. I'll often take Vampiric Swarm in PvE when I take a hero monk, since they take off the bleeding from Blood Drinker anyway. It'll not deal the sort of Damage SV or SS will deal I'm sure, but it's fun to play.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 21, 2008, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Well, if you really want to run a blood bar in PvE, it's probably a mistake to skip past [skill]enfeebling blood[/skill] and [skill]oppressive gaze[/skill]