Curse

Taurucis · Jul 30, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

To everyone who says that 10 bone fiends can outdamage a warrior when you're fighting a MoP'd monster...

A warrior does not die from one Fireball, or Rodgort's Invocation, or Chain Lightning.

To everyone who says "SY doesn't affect its caster"...

That is why you put prot spirit/guardian/shielding hands/random prot skills on your SY user.

To the guy who says 82% isn't much more than 66%...

Take an 100 damage hit, 82% damage prevented means you lose 18 health... 66% prevented means you lose 34 health. And what if it's Elemental damage? Weakness doesn't affect it, but SY will.

To people who think necros > warriors...

You're just jealous because warrior FoW has a helmet

I jest, I jest.

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

When did I keep quiet about them? I merely pointed out counters to counters.

Of course there are counters to counters. Someone mentioned hex removal I mentioned fish hex and cover hexes. I mentioned blind and someone mentioned condition removal. What's wrong with that? I was wrong to mention blind even though it has a counter? And you cant mention hex removal then because there are counters?

Again, what is the point you are trying to make?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I never said anything about warriors. I was talking about physicals. This means rangers, assassins, paragons, dervishes AND warriors.

I was stating an example using warriors+monk to illustrate my point.

Quote:

Maybe because being jack o' all trades is bad and variants exist.

Perhaps, but there is a discussion on this thread on which profession would be best for HM. And stating a team build that requires multiple professions to work well, as a way to say "Aha, see, that means THIS particular profession is the best", doesn't make sense.

And you are right, you can always take the best from each profession and synergize them. But that would not prove that one profession is better than the others. But you can just say, this profession when synergized with this and that other profession, is the best.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

DarkSpirit,

What part of PvE are necromancers and other casters better at?

That depends on what you mean by "better" or "best". Is having versatility good? You can argue that it is a plus point because that means you can easily adapt your builds to the different areas. Or you can say, that is not good, because "best" to you means the highest possible damage (ignoring defense) and being so flexible you can't be the highest damage character.

"Best" to me is being effective in pve (since we are talking about HM). To be effective is to be able to clear fast WITH the least amount of casualties on your party. Not sure if everyone agrees, but that is me.

Tyla · Jul 30, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Of course there are counters to counters. Someone mentioned hex removal I mentioned fish hex and cover hexes. I mentioned blind and someone mentioned condition removal. What's wrong with that? I was wrong to mention blind even though it has a counter? And you cant mention hex removal then because there are counters?

Again, what is the point you are trying to make?

AI doesn't use fish hexes. AI is stupid in the first place.

I thought we were talking about the structure of a HUMAN team here. HUMANS don't often remove fish hexes because they aren't as retarded as AI. Well, usually.

As for hex removal, what kind of team doesn't bring it when there are hexes present that have a major impact on your play? Same goes for condition removal.

Oh, and the reason I mentioned Migraine is because that's anti-caster, like Faintheartedness is anti-melee. Your point was that there are melee counters so that can't be the best overall profession. If there are caster counters then it simply evens it out.

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

AI doesn't use fish hexes. AI is stupid in the first place.

Wait, we are not talking about which profession would be "best" in HM using heroes now are we?

Quote:

I thought we were talking about the structure of a HUMAN team here. HUMANS don't often remove fish hexes because they aren't as retarded as AI. Well, usually.

What are you talking about? Human player can use fish hexes to fish out elite hex removal and HM implies PvE. Read Moloch's article:

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/..._of_Pain_Nuker

Quote:

As for hex removal, what kind of team doesn't bring it when there are hexes present that have a major impact on your play? Same goes for condition removal.

Ok, again, your point is?

Quote:

Oh, and the reason I mentioned Migraine is because that's anti-caster, like Faintheartedness is anti-melee. Your point was that there are melee counters so that can't be the best overall profession. If there are caster counters then it simply evens it out.

That is not what I said. I mentioned counters to physical knowing full well there are counters to those counters. In the same way, I assume you are aware of counters to hex removing too, when you (or someone else) mentioned hex removal.

This is a discussion, I am sure we know there are counters to counters. Every class has a counter, you can bring counters in your own skill bar, but that would mean taking up skill slots. You can bring counters on your monk's skill bar but would that mean a dependence on another profession or does your all-warrior team have the energy to keep everyone hex-free for example?

Tyla · Jul 30, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Wait, we are not talking about which profession would be "best" in HM using heroes now are we?

Then why didn't you ignore the parts where people were saying "7 physical 1 monk"?

Why isn't this in the H/H forum?

Quote:

What are you talking about? Human player can use fish hexes and HM implies PvE. Read Moloch's article:

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/..._of_Pain_Nuker

And AI often implies PvE aswell. Enemies in PvE are also stupid and don't even have a structured team. If we're talking counters, we're obviously talking counters used against the HUMAN's party, because the AI is often stupid and unstructured in the first place.

Quote:

Ok, again, your point is?

That was my point.

I'll make it even more simple. Retards don't often bring a counter when a certain thing has a big impact.

Quote:

That is not what I said. I mentioned counters to physical knowing full well there are counters to those counters. In the same way, I assume you are aware of counters to hex removing too, when you (or someone else) mentioned hex removal.

This is a discussion, I am sure we know there are counters to counters. Every class has a counter, you can bring counters in your own skill bar, but that would mean taking up skill slots. You can bring counters on your monk's skill bar but would that mean a dependence on another profession?

And that's why counters don't mean something is any less effective.

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Then why didn't you ignore the parts where people were saying "7 physical 1 monk"?

Why isn't this in the H/H forum?

Because we are not just talking about H/H teams.

Quote:

And AI often implies PvE aswell. Enemies in PvE are also stupid and don't even have a structured team. If we're talking counters, we're obviously talking counters used against the HUMAN's party, because the AI is often stupid and unstructured in the first place.

Not necessarily so. I have seen the AI use hex removal when I cast a hex. They dont need much intelligence to do that. Same for condition removal.

Quote:

And that's why counters don't mean something is any less effective.

In PvE, you can customize your skills based on the area. If they are no hex removal, I can get rid of fish/cover hexes from my skill bar.

We are talking about common counters, it just mean you should adjust for them if you are declaring some class or build for general pve use. Even if you dont, you should still give variants that cater for them.

Bobby2 · Jul 30, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

DarkSpirit.

80k
FoW

Physicals vs. Necros

I am SO in on this.

Tyla · Jul 30, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Because we are not just talking about H/H teams.

I was talking about the retarded AI you have no skill control over.

Quote:

Not necessarily so. I have seen the AI use hex removal when I cast a hex. They dont need much intelligence to do that. Same for condition removal.

Oh, you mean like how they remove any old hex, no matter what effects it has?

Easily reapplyable conditions! /Remove!

Diversion! /Remove!

Quote:

In PvE, you can customize your skills based on the area. If they are no hex removal, I can get rid of fish/cover hexes from my skill bar.

We are talking about common counters, it just mean you should adjust for
them if you are declaring some class or build for general pve use. Even if you dont, you should still give variants that cater for them.

Coolio! Common sense!

I'll give you a quick example.

FoW. Lots of anti-melee hexes, and offensive conditions! Heavy hex removal added and condition removal. GG2U.

cellardweller · Jul 31, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

This thread is so epic... we're aguing about all nec teams vs all physical teams now? wooo

The fact is that necro damage is unparralelled - however these popular necro builds only excel in the presence of physicals. To get the true maximum potential out of Necro damage you need a competent human warrior because they are capable of holding 6-12 mixed mode creatures at a time in adjacent AoE whist doubling as a platform for churing out splinter weapon.

The answer to the original question imo would be to play a warrior or sin because whilst ai will do a sub par job of playing a necromancer, they are completely incapable of playing melee - and lets face it, you'll spend most of your time ai.

DarkSpirit · Jul 31, 2008, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, you mean like how they remove any old hex, no matter what effects it has?

Easily reapplyable conditions! /Remove!

Diversion! /Remove!

And that is how fishing hex works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

This thread is so epic... we're aguing about all nec teams vs all physical teams now? wooo

The fact is that necro damage is unparralelled - however these popular necro builds only excel in the presence of physicals. To get the true maximum potential out of Necro damage you need a competent human warrior because they are capable of holding 6-12 mixed mode creatures at a time in adjacent AoE whist doubling as a platform for churing out splinter weapon.

I think you are late. We have gone over the mixed profession scenarios many times now.

Quote:

The answer to the original question imo would be to play a warrior or sin because whilst ai will do a sub par job of playing a necromancer, they are completely incapable of playing melee - and lets face it, you'll spend most of your time ai.

A 55 necro can still tank.

If you have to depend on other professions for awesome damage, then you can't say you are best, but you are only the best if the necro helps you out and it certainly doesn't prove you are better than the necro class who have HELPED you to achieve that damage in the first place.

Rhamia Darigaz · Jul 31, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

i don't see what the argument here is
bring physicals to do damage and necros to buff physical damage.
no need to go all physicals or all necros and gimp yourself...

DarkSpirit · Jul 31, 2008, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

i don't see what the argument here is
bring physicals to do damage and necros to buff physical damage.
no need to go all physicals or all necros and gimp yourself...

Finally a post I can fully agree with.

Even though physicals can be buffed in many ways, you shouldn't be claiming that they are the BEST or BETTER than the caster classes who have helped them to achieve that awesome damage in the first place. It is like the warrior who thinks only of his awesome self killing the mob, and not even giving credit to the monk who have kept him alive all that time. But if the warrior dies, guess who would be blamed?

Koning · Jul 31, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Darkspirit stop failing and stop posting on guru. Instead use that time to go FoW.

-Lotus- · Jul 31, 2008, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

Darkspirit stop failing and stop posting on guru. Instead use that time to go FoW.

even if darkspirit does fail in almost every thread this seems uncalled for.

isildorbiafra · Jul 31, 2008, 08:34 AM // 08:34

A warrior with.....The imba of skills: Pain Inverter will ruin any spikers day. You dont have to do a thing. Just cast and watch them drop!

Tyla · Jul 31, 2008, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And that is how fishing hex works.

I'm talking about the H/H AI...

Snow Bunny · Jul 31, 2008, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

i don't see what the argument here is
bring physicals to do damage and necros to buff physical damage.
no need to go all physicals or all necros and gimp yourself...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Finally a post I can fully agree with

Quote:

Originally Posted by ME

The bottom line is that the classes with innate energy management built in work together almost flawlessly.

Warriors (adrenaline is basically an energy managent mechanic arguably), Necromancers, Dervishes, Assassins, and Paragons work together quite fluidly, as the infinite energy each class can obtain can fuel very powerful bars in a party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ME

Pretty much making one of those and throwing it in a well-organized group with the others will win PvE.

A combination of all of them makes for incredibly strong groups.

See what I did there?

Abedeus · Jul 31, 2008, 03:33 PM // 15:33

You made his head asplode?

DarkSpirit · Jul 31, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

My point is made, and I didn't see any new rebuttal besides pure insults and flames the next morning. I guess my job on this thread, is now done.

Bobby2 · Jul 31, 2008, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Can't see any insults or flames since your last post, 'cept from Koning. I'm trying not to joke about your warped perceptions. It's very hard.

People like you are exactly why I love Livia and MoW (yes, that's an insult).