Curse

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

Why do you respond on every little sentence (with a reply that doesn't make sence, but ok) but you don't respond to a question of 2 people to proof that you can clear an area in under the time a team of physicals can? Or do you already know the outcome?

I have already mentioned that different builds have different performance in different areas. I am sure areas with lots of AoE blind/weakness, Aegis, and anti-physical hexes/wards would not be great for your suggested 7 physicals, 1 monk team either.

Abedeus · Jul 30, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

Why do you respond on every little sentence (with a reply that doesn't make sence, but ok) but you don't respond to a question of 2 people to proof that you can clear an area in under the time a team of physicals can? Or do you already know the outcome?

But, but... 8 NECROS CAN BEAT 8 WARRIORZZZ ;[

Quote:

I have already mentioned that different builds have different performance in different areas. I am sure areas with lots of AoE blind/weakness, Aegis, and anti-physical hexes/wards would not be great for your suggested 7 physicals, 1 monk team either.

Funny you mention it. There is quite a lot of hexes, melee hate and blinds. And we from GoE (almost) managed to clear FoW with 1 monk (mah! ;d), 1 ranged, 5 melee (6 physicals), order necro and that's it. We failed at last (10/11 ffs -.-) quest because of sudden aggroing of patrol we thought would not cross us. 40 minutes, hard mode. And of course there were various ,,8 of one profession'' FoW clears, posted few months ago by Handy.

And let's not forget paraway, 8x para's, clearing FoW too.

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

But, but... 8 NECROS CAN BEAT 8 WARRIORZZZ ;[

Funny you mention it. There is quite a lot of hexes, melee hate and blinds. And we from GoE (almost) managed to clear FoW with 1 monk (mah! ;d), 1 ranged, 5 melee (6 physicals), order necro and that's it. We failed at last (10/11 ffs -.-) quest because of sudden aggroing of patrol we thought would not cross us. 40 minutes, hard mode. And of course there were various ,,8 of one profession'' FoW clears, posted few months ago by Handy.

And let's not forget paraway, 8x para's, clearing FoW too.

And with enough hex removal, that shouldn't too much problem with a physical and FoW. Every team build has its strenghts and weaknesses, don't you agree? Unless you are declaring that necros suck and every team should have 7 physicals and 1 monk for everywhere.

Snow Bunny · Jul 30, 2008, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I have already mentioned that different builds have different performance in different areas. I am sure areas with lots of AoE blind/weakness, Aegis, and anti-physical hexes/wards would not be great for your suggested 7 physicals, 1 monk team either.

FoW:
[throw dirt][blinding flash][blurred vision][lightning reflexes][empathy][spiteful spirit][dust trap][life bond]

I didn't include [Ward against foes][deep freeze][barbed trap] Which greatly impede physical's mobility and thus damage.

Not to mention that FoW has very little in the manner of caster hate.

We're not saying Necros suck, far from it. We're saying that for PvE you cannot beat physical damage. The versatility it offers is unparalleled.

Abedeus · Jul 30, 2008, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

And with enough hex removal, that shouldn't too much problem with a physical and FoW. Every team build has its strenghts and weaknesses, don't you agree? Unless you are declaring that necros suck and every team should have 7 physicals and 1 monk for everywhere.

Never said necroes suck. I think they are OP in pve. Mainly heroes.

But there is a lot of melee hate in FoW.

Oh, and DoA, we did it too. 4 physicals, 2 monks, 2 support. I think that nobody ever ran such thing, I mean you've got a shitload of hexes that hurt melee in DoA and we managed to do a full clear, except for mallyx ofc. And Hard Mode.

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

FoW:
[throw dirt][blinding flash][blurred vision][lightning reflexes][empathy][spiteful spirit][dust trap][life bond]

I didn't include [Ward against foes][deep freeze][barbed trap] Which greatly impede physical's mobility and thus damage.

Not to mention that FoW has very little in the manner of caster hate.

And depending on your secondary classes, you can still bring hex/condition removal. What is so hard about that if you have the time to organize your team rather than going in with your single character and a random PUG. When people have even done HM FoW with paragons heroes. With proper organization, even an all-mesmer team can do well in UW and FoW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedues

Oh, and DoA, we did it too. 4 physicals, 2 monks, 2 support. I think that nobody ever ran such thing, I mean you've got a shitload of hexes that hurt melee in DoA and we managed to do a full clear, except for mallyx ofc. And Hard Mode.

Any well organized team, with proper team planning, can defeat any areas because wikis already have detail information on what to expect down there. That doesn't surprise me. Mesmers are supposedly weakest or one of the weakest class in PvE, yet they can also clear them in a well organized team. Does that mean pve mesmers are more effective than warriors, when a particular warrior failed to do that with a PUG?

Tyla · Jul 30, 2008, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I am sure with proper organization, even an all-mesmer team can do well.

... GoE already did that if memory serves.

Abedeus · Jul 30, 2008, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

... GoE already did that if memory serves.

I think it did all, even ranger-only team.

Quote:

Any well organized team, with proper team planning, can defeat any areas. That doesn't surprise me. Mesmers are supposedly weakest or one of the weakest class in PvE, yet they can also clear them in a well organized team. Does that mean pve mesmers are overpowered?

Lol stop failing please. If you don't think necroes are OP, then you are failing BADLY. Unlimited energy > everything you can put.

Koning · Jul 30, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Funny you mention it. There is quite a lot of hexes, melee hate and blinds. And we from GoE (almost) managed to clear FoW with 1 monk (mah! ;d), 1 ranged, 5 melee (6 physicals), order necro and that's it. We failed at last (10/11 ffs -.-) quest because of sudden aggroing of patrol we thought would not cross us. 40 minutes, hard mode.

What you mean 'almost' and 'failed'

We already completed numerous times (and not just our guild)

Anyway darkspirit just stop talking, you're even contradicting yourself now. First you say physical teams have a hard time completing areas with hate, than you say in a post later it isn't that hard to complete...

Let's just conclude that if physical teams wanna own more, they want a necro (orders, or even mop/barbs if there is place). And if a necro wants to own more, he wants physicals (who actually follow calls instead of half the minion army not doing that).

Oh, and I still wanna see you clear FoW under 50 min with your necroes (and don't come with some answer or excuse like 'any place can be cleared with proper blablabla').

Snow Bunny · Jul 30, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Bear in mind DarkSpirit, we're not flaming you.

I am simply betting you 80k that with our 'perfected' physical set up vs. your 'perfected' necromancer setup, we will clear FoW HM faster.

If you like though, I'll explain why the necromancers won't work.

Your basing Mark of Pain off of minions, yes? The same goes for Barbs.

A sole firestorm from a Shadow Elementalist will destroy a minion army. Your minions will die before you can throw Death Nova onto all of them.

Necromancers are quite versatile; infinite energy means they can power any energy-demanding bar in the game. They have minions and hexes for insane amounts of passive defense and hate for every mechanic in the game.

What we're saying is that physicals will blow up pve faster than necros will.

And to come full circle, that is why a physical profession is the best for hardmode.

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koning

Anyway darkspirit just stop talking, you're even contradicting yourself now. First you say physical teams have a hard time completing areas with hate, than you say in a post later it isn't that hard to complete...

What? Just because an organized team managed to clear FoW, means blind does not effect physicals anymore and I was wrong to say it does?

So if an all-mesmer team also cleared FoW, does that also mean pve mesmers are at least as effective as your physicals in pve (following your logic)?

You should know the difference between an organized team that was built specifically for an area, and the weaknesses/strength of a class in general.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

What we're saying is that physicals will blow up pve faster than necros will.

And to come full circle, that is why a physical profession is the best for hardmode.

First of all it is not a all physical team. Unlike the all-mesmer team who had also cleared UW and FoW, it is a 7-physical, 1 monk team. Physicals do well because they buff it up with skills from other classes. For example, if a warrior uses barbs to kill an enemy fast, does it mean the warrior class is superior to the necro class? You guys like to mention how a physical can be effective with Splinter weapon, fair enough, but you gave no mention or credit to the caster that actually helped to cast it on you. Then you came about with the impression that it was all your assassin's or warrior's credit and how superior physicals classes are to caster classes when without Splinter Weapon, you would be killing 1 target at a time. How about the monk who kept you alive in the frontline while you are pounding on the enemy? Does that contribute to your effectiveness? Of course, but nobody mentions him.

So my point is, the so-called "awesome" effectiveness of physical classes that many of you like to boast about is a result of team work with the casters, not because physical classes are clearly superior to the others. Similarly for the organized teams' achievements.

Tyla · Jul 30, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Dark Spirit, did you know skills like Migraine effects casters alot too?

Migraine and other anti-caster skills for casters are what blind and other anti-physical things are for physicals.

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Dark Spirit, did you know skills like Migraine effects casters alot too?

Migraine and other anti-caster skills for casters are what blind and other anti-physical things are for physicals.

Yes, so does Diversion. There are caster shutdowns too in the game. What's your point?

For the achievements of a 7 physical, 1 monk team, shouldn't be used to say physical classes are clearly superior to caster classes. It sounds like all the contributions of that monk is ignored in such statements.

Tyla · Jul 30, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yes, so does Diversion. There are caster shutdowns too in the game. What's your point?

My point is there are also caster shutdowns. Almost everything in this game can be countered, and there are counters to those counters. You can't justify the usefulness of said class just because there are counters.

Quote:

In the achievements of a 7 physical, 1 monk team, shouldn't be used to say physical classes are clearly superior to caster classes. It sounds like all the contribution of that monk is ignored in such statements.

Superior to other classes in a certain aspect of the game.

There are counters against melee? Hey! There are counters against casters too!

Please. Stop. Posting.

Abedeus · Jul 30, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Yes, so does Diversion. There are caster shutdowns too in the game. What's your point?

For the achievements of a 7 physical, 1 monk team, shouldn't be used to say physical classes are clearly superior to caster classes. It sounds like all the contributions of that monk is ignored in such statements.

Lol. Every balanced team has a monk or other healing. It's the difference that states the type of build, physical, full caster or just auto-pilot mashup.

And if you are saying warriors/others are weak if not paired with other characters, try to do anything with 8x N/nothing. WON'T WORK. Even with infinite amount of energy. Same as 8x pure physicals.

But then again, paraway exists.
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Singers_of_Woe
Here you go, 8 physicals.

Snow Bunny · Jul 30, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

DarkSpirit.

80k
FoW

Physicals vs. Necros

DarkSpirit · Jul 30, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

My point is there are also caster shutdowns. Almost everything in this game can be countered, and there are counters to those counters. You can't justify the usefulness of said class just because there are counters.

Of course there are. That doesn't mean you have to keep quiet about the strengths and weaknesses of a class. If I said necro, you could have said Diversion or even hex removal, like someone else mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Lol. Every balanced team has a monk or other healing. It's the difference that states the type of build, physical, full caster or just auto-pilot mashup.

And if you are saying warriors/others are weak if not paired with other characters, try to do anything with 8x N/nothing. WON'T WORK. Even with infinite amount of energy. Same as 8x pure physicals.

I am saying, you cant use the fact that warriors+monks is effective to merely say warrior class is superior to every other class, when they clearly need healing, for example.

And please dont tell me that you think N/Mo and N/Rt healers are not viable. I can agree that in some areas, all physicals team can do better than all casters team, but I doubt that is true for ALL or even most areas.

Quote:

But then again, paraway exists.
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Singers_of_Woe
Here you go, 8 physicals.

That build may work, if you can find 8 paragons. But I would hardly call that the most efficient pve build possible, for most areas (it is a FoW build BTW), with any single class. Look at the counters section.

Tyla · Jul 30, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Of course there are. That doesn't mean you have to keep quiet about the strengths and weaknesses of a class. If I said necro, you could have said Diversion or even hex removal, like someone else mentioned.

When did I keep quiet about them? I merely pointed out counters to counters.

By the way, Diversion works against everything.

Just to finish off:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Spirit

And please dont tell me that you think N/Mo and N/Rt healers are not viable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abe

try to do anything with 8x N/nothing

The main word bolded.

Abedeus · Jul 30, 2008, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

I am saying, you cant use the fact that warriors+monks is effective to merely say warrior class is superior to every other class, when they clearly need healing, for example.

I never said anything about warriors. I was talking about physicals. This means rangers, assassins, paragons, dervishes AND warriors.

Quote:

That build may work, but I would hardly call that the most efficient pve build possible, for all areas, with any single class. Look at the counters section.

Maybe because being jack o' all trades is bad and variants exist.

Snow Bunny · Jul 30, 2008, 10:18 PM // 22:18

DarkSpirit,

What part of PvE are necromancers and other casters better at?

I want to know.

This discussion is not derailed; it's quite on topic.