Curse

alundro · Jul 28, 2008, 05:41 AM // 05:41

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Originally Posted by Da Rk Bl Ad E

Alundro, are you high? Your ranting on about nonsense :P I mean...Triple chop , Hundred blades or ES Hmm would i rather have Ok'ish AoE damage or an AoE attack that can potentially knock-lock mobs, Hard choice? I think not.

As Tyla said [whirlwind attack] + [crude swing] Is plenty of AoE damage, Add In [splinter weapon]+[mark of pain] and your set to go. Why waste an Elite spot on triple chop or hundred blades when you can have plenty of aoe and [earth shaker]

SS is inferior to buffed up physicals 'Nuff Said.

We're talking about highest DPS in hard mode and you champion a hammer warrior? And im the one accused of being high. I assumed if you brought ES, youd be weapon switching to a sword or axe to dish out more DPS from the buffs. You dont need many points in hammer for ES, after all. Sticking with a hammer while you're buffed like that is just a waste of time.

Regardless, this is about the highest DPS in hard mode, not average DPS + uber mitigation. If I wanted that id make an imbagon, not an ES warrior.

[Hundred Blades] + [Sun and Moon Slash] + [Whirlwind Attack]
[Triple Chop] + [Cyclone Axe] + [Whirlwind Attack]

Thats the highest DPS a warrior is gonna get. It still doesnt do more than an SS necro though.

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Originally Posted by Bobby2

1 Blossom spammer would give SS and its echoed copy a run for their money... before adding buffs.

EDIT: yes, I meant in HM.

I'd tell you to try the SS/arcane necromancer out yourself to understand, but you don't even need to in this case. Look, mobs attack 2-4x per 2 seconds in hard mode. DB does 90 damage every 2 seconds. SS does 66-132 every 2 seconds. SSx2 is 132-264 every 2s. Throw in Necrosis and a buffed sin just can't pass the necro.

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Originally Posted by Windf0rce

When running Sabway, for example, setting Livia as the SS/Barbs is effective enough. On the other hand, I can guess an Assassin hero certainly wouldn't be able to spam Moebius/Death Blossom as well as I do, switch targets, use Golden Fox/Wild Strike effectively on stance blockers, etc, and much less survive Hard Mode with 70 Armor, etc. Even if the hero managed all that, he/she wouldn't have access to Critical Agility which I think is key for the spam (33% IAS is huge!).

The AI plays a curse necro fairly poorly, actually. Their target selection is bad, they dont always cast SS when its up despite having enough energy, and they cant use arcane echo.

Critical agility is to assassins as necrosis is to necromancers. Both are uber, and heros dont have access to either. If you think about it, an SS/echo player is like having 2 curse heros and a discord hero in 1 package.

But hey, youve already decided on the assassin. Still a strong contender for high damage. I've said my piece. Good luck with that.

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 06:18 AM // 06:18

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Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

[great dwarf weapon] [order of pain] [mark of pain] [barbs] on a melee = win

And those are also necro skills except for great dwarf weapon.

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SS's DPS is bad compared to a buffed physical so the point is don't bring a SS bring assassins promise so that your melee can blow shit up faster. I've seen that MoP nuker build at work and it can take out mobs ridiculously fast if placed on the right targets. Now that being said Dark 10 minions isn't as effective as a warrior simply because the warrior can knocklock or spam SY!.

You are wrong, minions target better because PUG wammos dont know how to hit the same target.

And SY! is more effective on a paragon than a warrior.

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Not only that but there is usually more then one physical on a PvE team (paragon, dervish, sin, other warrior) and they usually have IAS's which means they attack much faster then minions ever could. This makes it smarter to bring physicals.

Actually the 10 fiends generate more attack per second than your IAS. In any case, ranged attackers dont need to run down to the intended target to hit them, so they are still faster since MoP damage is based on physical hits per second, and not the amount of damage you deal to the intended target. In fact, if you have so much damage as to kill the MoP target in just a few blows while surrounding monsters are still alive, then you have effectively wasted your MoP and you have to wait for it to recharge.

The purpose of MoP is to kill the surrounding monsters, not the target, which is why a smart human necro would wait till the surrounding monsters around the target are killed by MoP first before casting Barbs on the MoP target itself. The AI fails to use MoP correctly. Fiends with their lower damage, huge quantity, and fast attack speeds are made to synergize well with MoP.

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However if you are out on your lonesome and only have h/h access why not just bring physicals and minions

twice the fun.

Melee AI have a pathing bug, ranged AI is better.

RavagerOfDreams · Jul 28, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are wrong, minions target better because PUG wammos dont know how to hit the same target.

And SY! is more effective on a paragon than a warrior.

PUGS = fail. good players = win. And even on a paragon w/e they still do a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing load of damage with buffs and trigger mop + barbs.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Actually the 10 fiends generate more attack per second than your IAS. In any case, ranged attackers dont need to run down to the intended target to hit them, so they are still faster since MoP damage is based on physical hits per second, and not the amount of damage you deal to the intended target. In fact, if you have so much damage as to kill the MoP target in just a few blows while surrounding monsters are still alive, then you have effectively wasted your MoP and you have to wait for it to recharge.
The purpose of MoP is to kill the surrounding monsters, not the target, which is why a smart human necro would wait till the surrounding monsters around the target are killed by MoP first before casting Barbs on the MoP target itself. The AI fails to use MoP correctly. Fiends with their lower damage, huge quantity, and fast attack speeds are made to synergize well with MoP.

I like to run (with organized groups) 3 moebius sins. They outdamge your silly minions, trigger mop, and deal and extra 80 per death blossom. 120 aoe damage is hawt.

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Melee AI have a pathing bug, ranged AI is better.

works well for me........

fireflyry · Jul 28, 2008, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Each to their own.

I like my Sin.

MM's are great but they need corpses first, after that they are invaluable imo.Discord is only really good if theres 3 or 4 spiking down targets otherwise it's a wasted elite imo.

AoE>Single target spike especially with options like [putrid bile] [putrid explosion] [death nova] [mark of pain] [order of pain] , etc.

They are also problematic as they rely on influences outside of their control to be truly effective eg.Targeting awareness from other players, minion AI, etc, etc.

Personally I view Necros as a hybrid damage/support class.Either way a good one in HM is awesome especially with high SR but I wouldn't consider them DPS machines on their own when several other classes easily surpass their potential maximum DPS.

[moebius strike] + [death blossom] + [critical agility] + [splinter weapon] = teh sex.

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Originally Posted by alundro

I'd tell you to try the SS/arcane necromancer out yourself to understand, but you don't even need to in this case. Look, mobs attack 2-4x per 2 seconds in hard mode. DB does 90 damage every 2 seconds. SS does 66-132 every 2 seconds. SSx2 is 132-264 every 2s. Throw in Necrosis and a buffed sin just can't pass the necro.

You forgot [splinter weapon] which is pretty default in HM and the fact SS is dependent on the target staying alive.When it drops your waiting on a 10s recharge while the DB spammer is already at the next mob firing with a fresh splinter on his daggers and a full energy bar.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE SS/arcane but overall I find DB spam to pump out more damage both reliably and consistently.

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

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Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

I like to run (with organized groups) 3 moebius sins. They outdamge your silly minions, trigger mop, and deal and extra 80 per death blossom. 120 aoe damage is hawt.

Like I said, MoP doesn't work well with high single target damage. If you kill your MoP target too quickly, then you wont trigger as much MoP from it, and you have to wait for the spell to recharge before it can be used again.

At least silly minions damages can be fine tuned through proper hex application. If I need to kill surrounding monsters, I dont cast Barbs but just MoP, this makes the MoP target last longer to trigger off more MoP damage from it. If I dont need to kill surrounding monsters anymore, I just cast Barbs.

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Originally Posted by fireflyry

You forgot [splinter weapon] which is pretty default in HM and the fact SS is dependent on the target staying alive.When it drops your waiting on a 10s recharge while the DB spammer is already at the next mob firing with a fresh splinter on his daggers and a full energy bar.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE SS/arcane but overall I find DB spam to pump out more damage both reliably and consistently.

To be fair, one doesn't cast SS like they cast Barbs or MoP. SS is a cast-and-forget hex, it means after you have cast it on a target, you switch to another target. If your team knows how to call target and attack a single target, then it should not be the ones that are hexed with SS that are attacked first. SS should be used on multiple targets to amplify its effects since it has a medium recharge and arcane echo job is to help him cast it on more targets, faster than the 10s recharge would otherwise allow.

RavagerOfDreams · Jul 28, 2008, 08:06 AM // 08:06

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Like I said, MoP doesn't work well with high single target damage. If you kill your MoP target too quickly, then you wont trigger as much MoP from it, and you have to wait for the spell to recharge before it can be used again.

At least silly minions damages can be fine tuned through proper hex application. If I need to kill surrounding monsters, I dont cast Barbs but just MoP, this makes the MoP target last longer to trigger off more MoP damage from it. If I dont need to kill surrounding monsters anymore, I just cast Barbs.

All three sins take three separate targets and when your necro is using assassins promise MoP works just as well with high damage (even though it will trigger 5+ times before the kill is made and that +db damage is ridiculous). I honestly cannot believe I'm having to argue with you over why a regular physicals are better then minions

and yea mop + db + splinter is teh sex.

Abedeus · Jul 28, 2008, 08:30 AM // 08:30

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Originally Posted by alundro

Regardless, this is about the highest DPS in hard mode, not average DPS + uber mitigation. If I wanted that id make an imbagon, not an ES warrior.

[Hundred Blades] + [Sun and Moon Slash] + [Whirlwind Attack]
[Triple Chop] + [Cyclone Axe] + [Whirlwind Attack]

Thats the highest DPS a warrior is gonna get. It still doesnt do more than an SS necro though.

F-F_F-FFAAAIL

Triple Chop and Hundred Blades are BAAAAAD.

[For Great Justice!] [Dragon Slash] -> [Whirlwind Attack] -> [Dragon Slash] ->[Dragon Slash] -> [Whirlwind Attack] -> [Dragon Slash] -> [Whirlwind Attack]

Beats your Hundred Blades/Triple Chop. Maybe because in my build above, you can maintain stream of damage. As soon as you use Whirlwind Attack, you must wait for elites to recharge. That lowers your DPS drastically.

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 08:43 AM // 08:43

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Originally Posted by RavagerOfDreams

All three sins take three separate targets and when your necro is using assassins promise MoP works just as well with high damage (even though it will trigger 5+ times before the kill is made and that +db damage is ridiculous). I honestly cannot believe I'm having to argue with you over why a regular physicals are better then minions

and yea mop + db + splinter is teh sex.

The problem with using them to trigger MoP is precisely the fact that their damage is indeed stronger than the fiends so I am agreeing with you that the 3 sins would deal higher damage than the fiends without MoP.

Look at it this way, how many hits would your 3 sins need to kill a normal target? Certainly fewer than the number of hits my fiends need to do. This means my fiends can trigger off more MoP than your sins because the MoP target remain alive longer.

I quickly changed my hero MM's build just so that I can generate a screenshot to demonstrate this. I was too lazy to change my entire team build so I just blanked them out to avoid confusion.

Look at the number of MoP triggers my fiends did against a non-boss creature. Since they dont have as high a damage to kill it too fast, before the surrounding monsters die. Also, fiends have better targeting, even though they are from a hero MM.

Bobby2 · Jul 28, 2008, 08:59 AM // 08:59

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Originally Posted by alundro

[hundred blades] + [sun and moon slash] + [whirlwind attack]

I cringed when I saw HB, and I just hope you weren't serious. [[Dragon Slash] powers more Whirlwind = more AoE than your example could ever hope for.

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Originally Posted by alundro

I'd tell you to try the SS/arcane necromancer out yourself to understand, but you don't even need to in this case. Look, mobs attack 2-4x per 2 seconds in hard mode. DB does 90 damage every 2 seconds. ... SS does 66-132 every 2 seconds. SSx2 is 132-264 every 2s. Throw in Necrosis and a buffed sin just can't pass the necro.

On groups of the strongest (eg stupidest, fastest attacking) monsters, dual SS might have a chance of keeping up with an unbuffed Sin (admittedly, not considering Necrosis spam). Tiny details:

1. You're not considering casters, which don't act as frequently as melees, when coming up with pretty numbers for SS
2. As DarkSpirit so aptly described, SS isn't controlled damage (indeed, it was never meant as a DPS skill at all - curse AI for being this dumb): a Blossom Sin can apply force where and when needed.
3. try2buffSSdmg4meagainplz
4. The OP has long made clear his intent.

Don't feel bad. As long as you pack [[Mark of Pain] and [[Barbs] you can always be in my party

EDIT: I've seen way prettier pictures DarkSpirit...

fireflyry · Jul 28, 2008, 09:27 AM // 09:27

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

.
To be fair, one doesn't cast SS like they cast Barbs or MoP. SS is a cast-and-forget hex, it means after you have cast it on a target, you switch to another target. If your team knows how to call target and attack a single target, then it should not be the ones that are hexed with SS that are attacked first. SS should be used on multiple targets to amplify its effects since it has a medium recharge and arcane echo job is to help him cast it on more targets, faster than the 10s recharge would otherwise allow.

Agreed but we all knew that.

My main point is that a DB sin has high damage consistency and near continuous AoE DPS regardless of what the team or mobs do.

Necromancers aren't as self reliant and really need near-perfect conditions, mob type and team work to really shine, especially if using SS.

Again I love my fellow Necros and rate them highly but in my personal experience DB Sins are more consistently effective at maintaining a high rate of AoE DPS with almost non-existent downtime and to be honest I rarely rate a classes worth on hypothetically perfect conditions.

Akolo · Jul 28, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Wow the amount of ignorance XD

Umm spirit if you consider that massive dps, you havent seen the dps from ONE dslash warrior with splinter and mark of pain on target

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46

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Originally Posted by Bobby2

EDIT: I've seen way prettier pictures DarkSpirit...

Me too. I did say that this is a last minute effort on my part, to capture a screenshot to demonstrate this.

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Originally Posted by Akolo

Wow the amount of ignorance XD

Umm spirit if you consider that massive dps, you havent seen the dps from ONE dslash warrior with splinter and mark of pain on target

Lol! You are not the only one with a godmode dslash warrior. I have one too so I have a good idea what he is capable and not capable of.

Too bad that you still dont get how MoP works after so many posts, if you kill your MoP target too fast with your dslash, then it is bye bye MoP until it recharges. Even if you use AP for instant recharge, it is still going to be slower since you have to keep recasting it over and over, while I can kill an entire mob with just a single cast of MoP. If you really want to contribute to MoP triggering with your warrior, I would just use normal attack with a spear and [[Flurry]. A spear would help you to target your MM and fiends better.

Tyla · Jul 28, 2008, 04:10 PM // 16:10

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Originally Posted by Dark Spirit

Last I remember, Splinter is physical damage, not armor ignoring but of course it helps. And Splinter would trigger MoP but fiends targeting is usually sufficient for me anyway. Having some melee to hold up and bunch up the group from fleeing would also help.

Have you ever even used Splinter Weapon and watched the damage yourself?

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Originally Posted by Alundro

We're talking about highest DPS in hard mode and you champion a hammer warrior? And im the one accused of being high. I assumed if you brought ES, youd be weapon switching to a sword or axe to dish out more DPS from the buffs. You dont need many points in hammer for ES, after all. Sticking with a hammer while you're buffed like that is just a waste of time.

Look at the damage range on hammers. If I wanted sword DPS, I would go Dragon Slash, not Earth Shaker. If I wanted axe DPS, I would go Cleave, not Triple Chop.

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I'd tell you to try the SS/arcane necromancer out yourself to understand, but you don't even need to in this case. Look, mobs attack 2-4x per 2 seconds in hard mode. DB does 90 damage every 2 seconds. SS does 66-132 every 2 seconds. SSx2 is 132-264 every 2s. Throw in Necrosis and a buffed sin just can't pass the necro.

Judging your comparrisons of damage with skills inferior to other things is voiding your own argument. Hundred Blades is terrible.

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Regardless, this is about the highest DPS in hard mode, not average DPS + uber mitigation. If I wanted that id make an imbagon, not an ES warrior.

The DPS of a hammer is sort of equal to the damage of a scythe. The only difference is scythes have an inherant AoE attack. Oh, and the point of an ES Warrior is to keep enemies in one spot while dealing good damage, so you've got AoE also killing them. It can also mitigate too, but that's just a side-effect.

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Originally Posted by Dark Spirit

And those are also necro skills except for great dwarf weapon.

Your point? They support, and deal damage through supporting melee, they don't deal damage in the same way Necrosis and SS do.

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I did say that this is a last minute effort on my part, to capture a screenshot to demonstrate this.

Can you please show how many enemies are there? For all I know it could be three enemies with the MoP'd one being attacked by only three out of the seven fiends. Oh, and you're supporting Necros as a support class for physicals you know.

Koning · Jul 28, 2008, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Darkspirit, pls stop this useless arguement. (Buffed) physicals own this game harder than anything else, and have the highest DPS (and I guess I'm not the first one who tells you this).

If you don't agree with that you probably haven't played with it, and I suggest you start doing that (yes I know you have DS warrior etc, but I guess you haven't played that or others right since you're not convinced) more as it is great fun to see things dropping faster than you can imagine

So please stop arguing on the forum but spend a bit more time playing the game, maybe one day you'll get better this way

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 04:29 PM // 16:29

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Have you ever even used Splinter Weapon and watched the damage yourself?

Sabway only has 10 to channeling for only 4 hits of 35 damage. A primary rit would do better at level 14 channeling for 5 hits of 47 damage, but primary hero rits are not as popular due to energy issues.

In any case, Splinter is not armor ignoring (i.e. the damage is physical) and has a hit limit. While MoP is armor ignoring and does not have a hit limit. MoP has a long effect time limit of 30s, so if you use it right, it can have more than enough triggers to kill the entire mob with a single cast, unlike Splinter. Splinter, however, is easier to setup and use. Thus, even stupid heroes can use it.

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Can you please show how many enemies are there? For all I know it could be three enemies with the MoP'd one being attacked by only three out of the seven fiends. Oh, and you're supporting Necros as a support class for physicals you know.

As far as I could see, all the fiends were attacking the same target. And I have already said many times, Fiends are physical and the fact that they dont deal as high a damage as a buffed up physical character is actually an advantage because the MoP target stays alive longer to trigger off more MoP. It is no point boasting how much single target damage you do and mention MoP in the same sentence because the two dont work well together. The worst thing you can do is to kill the MoP target in only 1 or 2 hits then you have to find a new MoP target and wait for the 20s recharge. Fast and low damage hits work better with MoP.

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Originally Posted by Koning

Darkspirit, pls stop this useless arguement. (Buffed) physicals own this game harder than anything else, and have the highest DPS (and I guess I'm not the first one who tells you this).

If you don't agree with that you probably haven't played with it, and I suggest you start doing that (yes I know you have DS warrior etc, but I guess you haven't played that or others right since you're not convinced) more as it is great fun to see things dropping faster than you can imagine

I have my first warrior ever since prophecies, even though he is good, a proper MoP+Fiends setup still kills mobs faster because armor ignoring AoE damage rules. You should try that sometime yourself since you obviously dont understand necros.

Tyla · Jul 28, 2008, 04:43 PM // 16:43

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Sabway only has 10 to channeling for only 4 hits of 35 damage. A primary rit would do better at level 14 channeling for 5 hits of 47 damage, but primary hero rits are not as popular due to energy issues.

In any case, Splinter is not armor ignoring (i.e. the damage is physical) and has a hit limit.

Hence why it was nerfed several times and is still used in PvP? Sorry, but if it wasn't armour-ignoring it wouldn't have been nerfed.

Plus if you just wand with it and see it's damage, it isn't changed in even Hard Mode.

Also, it' even (partly) on Discussion of the skills:

Clicky

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As far as I could see, all the fiends were attacking the same target. And I have already said many times, Fiends are physical and the fact that they dont deal as high a damage as a buffed up physical character is actually an advantage because the MoP target stays alive longer to trigger off more MoP. It is no point boasting how much single target damage you do and mention MoP in the same sentence because the two dont work well together. The worst thing you can do is to kill the MoP target in only 1 or 2 hits then you have to find a new MoP target and wait for the 20s recharge. Fast and low damage hits work better with MoP.

[[ASSASSIN'S PROMISE]

/Facepalm

DarkSpirit · Jul 28, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Hence why it was nerfed several times and is still used in PvP? Sorry, but if it wasn't armour-ignoring it wouldn't have been nerfed.

Lol! Comparing AoE damage effectiveness between PvE and PvP is like comparing apples and oranges.

MoP works in PvE because you can crowd control the mob with melee and stupid monsters tend to clump together. PvP is very different because human players are suppose to be smarter. The 2 scenarios are very different.

Like I said, Splinter is easier to setup and use while MoP is designed to destroy a monster mob over a period of time. It is more situational and requires some thinking choosing the right target.

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Plus if you just wand with it and see it's damage, it isn't changed in even Hard Mode.

I have seen its damage, but have you seen MoP's damage?

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[[ASSASSIN'S PROMISE]

/Facepalm

Why do you need Assassin's Promise when the mob is killed with a single cast of MoP? If you have to rely on AP to keep recasting MoP, finding new targets everytime then you are doing it wrong. You can use AP+MoP for the times you make mistakes in setting it up or if the mobs are more scattered.

Tyla · Jul 28, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Lol! Comparing AoE damage effectiveness between PvE and PvP is like comparing apples and oranges.

What? This skill blew up archers in GvG and pressured extremely well. If it was effected by armour it would be far less effective, especially now.

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MoP works in PvE because you can crowd control the mob with melee and stupid monsters tend to clump together. PvP is very different because human players are suppose to be smarter. The 2 scenarios are very different.

Then I guess it wasn't overpowered in PvP am I right?

Oh, and anything works in PvE so I don't know what point was there.

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Like I said, Splinter is easier to setup and use while MoP is designed to destroy a monster mob over a longer period of time. It is more situational and requires thinking.

Yet it's a spammable armour-ignoring *Red Engine*-you-up.

And I'm not saying MoP is bad.

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I have seen its damage, but have you seen MoP's damage?

Splinter triggers MoP. More MoP = good.

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Why do you need Assassin's Promise when the mob is killed with a single cast of MoP? If you have to rely on AP to keep recasting MoP, finding new targets everytime then you are doing it wrong.

Mobs blow up with Dervs 'n' shit easily anyway, regardless of MoP. For maximum benefit of the scythe you need to have field awareness too, for the same reason as MoP.

RavagerOfDreams · Jul 28, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Dark Honestly my sin can do more dps on his own then the numbers you have in that picture. Without buffs

shadowmage61 · Jul 28, 2008, 05:19 PM // 17:19

It's funny how dark tried to say that necros are better in HM because they can't be blocked/blinded/snared like warriors and other physical classes, and uses a MoP necro with minions (who, as physicals, are subject to the same shutdowns) as one of his examples...

The fact of the matter is that having a human playing on a physical with another human supporting them (monk, necro, rit, etc...) is better than minions in most circumstances. Minions can't call when they have blind, don't switch targets when they should, tend to get bodyblocked in all the wrong places, and won't focus on important targets as they attack with impunity. IMO the only thing minions are better at than human physicals is blowing up while enchanted with death nova