Curse

Turbobusa · Jul 27, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Mark of pain + spear = win. I can do that with my necro alone.
Lets see. Toxic chill, minions, discord, desacrate & copy, MoP, Barbs, blood magic (meh), and I'm too lazy to go to wiki to check the full list. No damage at all. None. I guess ANet must send some invisible unblockable physical when I go vanquishing and rape trhough about everything.

Theory is nice. Fact is necro isn't just a support class.
About discord being 37DPS, it is also an unblockable ranged damage spell with a 2s recharge and the condition being that the target is weakened.
I'm sorry but while a warrior can do great it just does not compare in a full team.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

More damage, IAS, SY...

10 Fiends+Barbs kill them in seconds before your single spear warrior even makes 1 or 2 hits. And besides, warrior+necro is 2-man, while necro+fiends is still a 1-man team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

I'm sorry but while a warrior can do great it just does not compare in a full team.

Correct. Why dont we get a full warrior team and compare its HM performance with a full necro team?

Turbobusa · Jul 27, 2008, 05:39 PM // 17:39

That wasn't my point, even if there's no necro healer in there and they both(warrior and necro teams) take monks the necros are going to do better because they don't need someone in there back do to damage in all situations

If you are going to reply SY don't bother, a dog can walk in HM with 3 mobs aggroed with this sh*t on.

Warriors are great damage dealers. Necros are also.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

That wasn't my point, even if there's no necro healer in there and they both(warrior and necro teams) take monks the necros are going to do better because they don't need someone in there back do to damage in all situations

If you are going to reply SY don't bother, a dog can walk in HM with 3 mobs aggroed with this sh*t on.

Warriors are great damage dealers. Necros are also.

SY is a protection skill, not a damage skill and SY doesn't protect against all forms of damage.

Necros can also be good healers thanks to soul reaping, so a full necro team can still perform better.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Spirit

1) Ability for damage from spells like Discord, or minion bombing or Barbs/MoP+minions

Barbs & MoP also makes physicals hurt more.

Quote:

2) Ability to mitigate damage like Enfeebling Blood, Shadow of Fear/Faintheartedness, and minion meat shields

Enfeebling Blood only needs 5 for a half decent and effective investment.

Quote:

3) Support abilities e.g. Orders.

Supporting physicals...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

Lets see. Toxic chill, minions, discord, desacrate & copy, MoP, Barbs, blood magic (meh), and I'm too lazy to go to wiki to check the full list. No damage at all. None. I guess ANet must send some invisible unblockable physical when I go vanquishing and rape trhough about everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

Regardless of there being damage skills or not, it remains a support class. Not once did I say they can't bring damage skills. A few skills don't make it a damage class.

READING COMPREHENSION IS WIN.

Quote:

About discord being 37DPS, it is also an unblockable ranged damage spell with a 2s recharge and the condition being that the target is weakened.

D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.

Quote:

I'm sorry but while a warrior can do great it just does not compare in a full team.

Comparing one Warrior to a full team is bad, especially since Warriors can have endless buffs ranging from Curses support, Orders, Splinter / AR and the list goes on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Spirit

SY is a protection skill, not a damage skill and SY doesn't protect against all forms of damage.

Oh, you mean like how that it's mostly Fire damage that hurts in PvE? Oh, I also guess that Enfeebling Blood sucks because it only protects against melee.

Quote:

Necros can also be good healers thanks to soul reaping, so a full necro team can still perform better.

Just because of the insane energy management?

Quote:

10 Fiends+Barbs kill them in seconds before your single spear warrior even makes 1 or 2 hits. And besides, warrior+necro is 2-man, while necro+fiends is still a 1-man team.

One man? How do you kill primarily? How did you get 10 fiends up for Barbs in a one-man team?

Quote:

Correct. Why dont we get a full warrior team and compare its HM performance with a full necro team?

You're really comparing 2 pips for healing to stupid energy management? You're retarded.

Bobby2 · Jul 27, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Epic thread derailment.

1. Necro's are meant as a support class - even if it's only their own minions. Don't go DPS racing now, you'll fall.
2. Throwing a monkey wrench in the DS War camp: the OP is going Blossom spam already. Hi Yah!

Turbobusa · Jul 27, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

First, I wasn't being aggressive so stop answering me like that.

Quote:

READING COMPREHENSION IS WIN.

While warriors can do great damage, they have some support skills in the tactic line. therefore, it is a support class.
While Eles can do great damage, they have some support skills in the water/earth line. Therefore, it is a support class.
Basically that's your reasonning.
May I lol?

I wasn't comparing one warrior to a full necro team, I was comparing a warrior team to a necro team:

Quote:

READING COMPREHENSION IS WIN.

If you want to be an ass, apply your own rules to yourself.

Quote:

D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.

"block"
OWNED

Quote:

D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.

"target killed before you land your hit"
OWNED

Quote:

D-Slash is base ~60 damage at least, and can be buffed to insanity.

"miss" due to hex, blind
OWNED

Because slashing things to death while they can't block or weaken you is very, very hard.

Let me correct myself:
Warriors are great damage dealers when they have someone to get rid of nasty conditions/hexes/enchants/blocks and they have buffs all over the place but become stupid and start being jerks to people because they think their big numbers is only caused by themselves.

^Read that part please. At least 42 times.

OP: Depends what you want to do.
Buff physicals is nice, but very unneeded imo and melee henchies kinda suck bad.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbobusa

While warriors can do great damage, they have some support skills in the tactic line. therefore, it is a support class.

Funny, you just used the same logic against yourself. Warriors were ment to dish out big numbers while mildly supporting their party, yet the Tactics skill line is absolute terribad?

Paragons are a support class yet they deal reasonably Warrior-like DPS at range. It makes no difference.

Quote:

While Eles can do great damage, they have some support skills in the water/earth line. Therefore, it is a support class.

Eles are a support class anyway, as are all other midliners.

Quote:

I wasn't comparing one warrior to a full necro team, I was comparing a warrior team to a necro team:

If you want to be an ass, apply your own rules to yourself.

Sorry, but I wasn't comparing it unfairly.

Quote:

"block"
OWNED

Targetswapping. OWNED!

Quote:

"target killed before you land your hit"
OWNED

D-Slash doesn't take long to charge with "FGJ!" anyway. OWNED!

Quote:

"miss" due to hex, blind
OWNED

Hex removal and condition removal. OWNED!

Quote:

Because slashing things to death while they can't block or weaken you is very, very hard.

See above answers.

Quote:

Let me correct myself:
Warriors are great damage dealers when they have someone to get rid of nasty conditions/hexes/enchants/blocks and they have buffs all over the place but become stupid and start being jerks to people because they think their big numbers is only caused by themselves.

By the same reasoning casters are the same because skills like Power Block exist. Oh, and physicals don't require as much external support as Necros to deal consistent damage. And in almost every scenario, you need support from a healer of any kind in the first place.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

The best overall DPS I have seen is still MoP+Fiends but that needs to be setup right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Barbs & MoP also makes physicals hurt more.

And minions deal physical damage.

Quote:

Enfeebling Blood only needs 5 for a half decent and effective investment.

And more points means it lasts longer so you dont have to keep casting+sac so often.

Quote:

Supporting physicals...

Which shows the necro's versatility more. You seem to be supporting necros so far.

Quote:

Warriors can have endless buffs ranging from Curses support, Orders, Splinter / AR and the list goes on.

I never knew Curse to be a Warrior skill line. Are you saying that warriors need necros to be effective?

Quote:

One man? How do you kill primarily? How did you get 10 fiends up for Barbs in a one-man team?

Barbs+Fiends does not need that many points into Curse to be effective.

Quote:

You're really comparing 2 pips for healing to stupid energy management? You're retarded.

2 pips of healing? Who is retarded?

You mean 2 pips of energy regen. And thanks for supporting my point.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

The best overall DPS I have seen is still MoP+Fiends but that needs to be setup right.

The best DPS I've seen is physical overload.

Quote:

And minions deal physical damage.

I didn't say they didn't.

Quote:

And more points means it lasts longer so you dont have to keep casting+sac so often.

Oh jeez, more sac. As if 10% sac is going to be gamebreaking?

Quote:

Which shows the necro's versatility more. You seem to be supporting necros so far.

I'm supporting them being a support class. And I didn't say Necromancers aren't versatile.

Quote:

I never knew Curse to be a Warrior skill line. Are you saying that warriors need necros to be effective?

I didn't say that. I merely stated they have endless buffs. Big difference.

Quote:

Barbs+Fiends does not need that many points into Curse to be effective.

Getting more Curses for Barbs is good.

Quote:

2 pips of healing? Who is retarded?

You mean 2 pips of energy regen. And thanks for supporting my point.

I didn't say "Two pips of health regeneration", I said "Two pips FOR healing".

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The best DPS I've seen is physical overload.

MoP+Fiends can kill off an entire mob faster with AoE armor ignoring damage.

Quote:

Oh jeez, more sac. As if 10% sac is going to be gamebreaking?

I didn't say it is. And making weaken last longer, casting and sac less, is bad? How?

Quote:

I'm supporting them being a support class. And I didn't say Necromancers aren't versatile.

I'm supporting them being the BEST PvE class because of their overall versatility in both support and damage for HM.

Quote:

I didn't say that. I merely stated they have endless buffs. Big difference.

Which really doesn't say much that warrior class is the best unless the buffs are all coming from their own primary profession skillbar. If they have to depend on the necro skills to help them out, then you are supporting my point on necro versatility.

Quote:

Getting more Curses for Barbs is good.

So is getting more Curse for Enfeebling Blood, what's your point?

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

MoP+Fiends can kill off an entire mob faster with AoE armor ignoring damage.

Dervish, Warrior AoE skills, Splinter Weapon. Oh, no AoE there...

Quote:

I didn't say it is. And making weaken last longer, casting and sac less, is bad? How?

It isn't. But you only need minimal attribution for it to prove effective.

Quote:

I'm supporting them being the BEST PvE class because of their overall versatility in both support and damage for HM.

That award goes to Paragons or Warriors. See the previously mentioned builds.

Quote:

Which really doesn't say much that warrior class is the best unless the buffs are all coming from their own primary profession skillbar. If they have to depend on the necro skills to help them out, then you are supporting my point on necro versatility.

/Facepalm.

Endless buffs doesn't mean only Necromancers. It means a wide array of support skills from professions such as Monk, Ritualist, Necromancer, Paragon and others. They do not need these buffs to be effective either.

Quote:

So is getting more Curse for Enfeebling Blood, what's your point?

You don't need more than 5 Curses for an infinitely maintainable source of weakness. You only gain more time in Curses and less needing of a cast for it. With Barbs, you can have a significant investment for a significant effect.

Squishy ftw · Jul 27, 2008, 07:00 PM // 19:00

You 2 should get a room and troll eachother until you both cream your pants already.

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You don't need more than 5 Curses for an infinitely maintainable source of weakness. You only gain more time in Curses and less needing of a cast for it. With Barbs, you can have a significant investment for a significant effect.

Of course more curse would be better, but there is only a 3 damage difference between a level 11 barbs (which you can with 16 to death, and 9 to SR after runes) and a level 14 barbs. 3 damage is hardly significant.

Anyway I have said all I wanted to say on this thread. Warriors maybe good for single target DPS but they rely on other classes to buff them. Unless you H/H (in which case the best builds are still triple necro based), if you PUG, good luck convincing some people to change their build to support you. Necros are more versatile overall (i.e. damage+defense+utility) and can have great DPS even without buffs from other professions.

Tyla · Jul 27, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

30 extra damage every 2 seconds is still nice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Spirit

Anyway I have said all I wanted to say on this thread. Warriors maybe good for single target DPS but they rely on other classes to buff them.

That's because they don't need to rely on them.

Quote:

Unless you H/H (in which case the best builds are still triple necro based), if you PUG, good luck convincing some people to change their build to support you. Necros are more versatile overall (i.e. damage+defense+utility) and can have great DPS even without buffs from other professions.

PuGs are bad, and H/H also has Racway, in any case you have the right to structure your own team.

Quote:

Necros are more versatile overall (i.e. damage+defense+utility) and can have great DPS even without buffs from other professions.

Warriors also get damage defense and utility, and they don't rely on other professions' buffs to work. If anything, you're so cheap you can't even pay attention. (Godmode D-Slasher has all three of those aspects, and so do many other Warrior builds so I don't know what the *Red Engine* you're talking about here)

Abedeus · Jul 27, 2008, 08:09 PM // 20:09

I think DarkSpirit is a troll because he thinks elementalist damage > necro damage in HM and Tyla is a troll because.

You want me to join you or what? Facts are simple:

Warrior + necro buffs + rit buffs = OWNAGE DPS AND AOE DPS PWNAGE

Necro = liek the best support character in pve. Although it shouldn't be on DPS. Why? Because wasting slots for pure damage < buffing melee chars to make them pwn everything around. That's why support + offense > offense + offense or support + support.

Teh synergy > the uhm, soloability?

DarkSpirit · Jul 27, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

I think DarkSpirit is a troll because he thinks elementalist damage > necro damage in HM and Tyla is a troll because.

Yes everyone is a troll except you and thanks for putting words in my mouth.

MoP+Fiends has better DPS than even Splinter, provided it is done right, which heroes typically fail in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

30 extra damage every 2 seconds is still nice.

That's because they don't need to rely on them. In any case, a 2 necro team is of course stronger than a 1 necro team so I dont know what point you are trying to push across.

Quote:

PuGs are bad, and H/H also has Racway, in any case you have the right to structure your own team.

Vanilla racway fails in many areas, the lack of Splinter is bad which is why I dont use the racway D/N anymore.

Quote:

Warriors also get damage defense and utility, and they don't rely on other professions' buffs to work. If anything, you're so cheap you can't even pay attention. (Godmode D-Slasher has all three of those aspects, and so do many other Warrior builds so I don't know what the *Red Engine* you're talking about here)

What you dont seem to realize is warriors defenses are not as effective as the necro's, for protecting the team, like Enfeebling Blood and minions. Except for overpowered SY which a Paragon can use to a much better degree than the warrior himself.

RavagerOfDreams · Jul 27, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

I'm cool like bobby

[moebius strike] [death blossom] [save yourselves] > pve

I'd go with Paragon, Warrior, or Assassin for PvE but thats just me

also

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squishy ftw

You 2 should get a room and troll eachother until you both cream your pants already.

srsly

isamu kurosawa · Jul 27, 2008, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And my point is, you dont even need to target switch when some monster throws up a blocking skill, as a caster.

Are physical characters viable? Of course! Nobody is debating that, but are they the BEST professions for HM in general? Are they better than necros in HM?

I use a discord spike team on my mes whenever i h/h vanquish. It is a great setup but running a physical team is much better if you are using real people.
Not got access to real people? get a better guild.

Casters should play supportive roles, negating damage to your team with things like blind and pumping your martials damage with skills like orders or splinter. Then if there is any room take utility skills like hex/cond removal, great dwarf weapon etc.
Monks of course mitigate and heal damage.

discord is great as a spike team but in areas with high HP foes, mass hex/cond removal, diversion etc the pressure from martials is much better. If a warriors attack skill is diverted he still goes decent damage with auto attack, if a discord gets diverted he's out.

Abedeus · Jul 27, 2008, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Yes everyone is a troll except you and thanks for putting words in my mouth.

When did I say I'm not a troll? Sure I am. I know I am. But please, do not lie, you did fight with someone few weeks ago about elementalist damage > splinter weapon or necro curses. I still remember my rofls.

Quote:

Vanilla racway fails in many areas, the lack of Splinter is bad which is why I dont use the racway D/N anymore.

Maybe it's just you. That will mean something ;d

Quote:

Enfeebling Blood and minions.

Enfeebling Blood - Sure, AoE, but only 66% and only physical. And must hit all monsters to work.
Save Yourselves - The only requirement is that you must be within range to make it work, but you usually are. It's almost 90% reduction to all armor-based damage. And can't be removed by condition removal.

And minions say hi to 300-400 damage in 5 seconds, AoE, in HM.