Curse

Bryant Again · Jul 15, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

D/W .-. mix and match?

WD/DW, imho.

FoxBat · Jul 15, 2008, 11:50 PM // 23:50

[skill]Mystic Sweep[/skill][skill]eremite's attack[/skill][skill]Heart of Fury[/skill][skill]Eternal Aura[/skill][skill]save yourselves[/skill] + Avatar of Choice + Whatever

Works fairly well when hitting clumped enemies, if you have an orders spamming [skill]Dark Fury[/skill]

Sadly [skill]Aura of Holy Might[/skill] converts to holy, negating [skill]Order of Pain[/skill]... debatable which one nets you more damage depending on enemy armor.

Kanyatta · Jul 16, 2008, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Leeroy

Warriors have skills from all chapters. nuff said.

Dervishes have Wounding Strike. Especially with a smite mez, and unconditional AoE damage, that's a much bigger nuff said.

Sirius-NZ · Jul 16, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25

DSlash is nice, but even a DSlash warrior can't outdo a Lyssa AoHM dervish for sheer damage. Pretty much nothing bar an assassin can.

Brian the Gladiator · Jul 16, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

This is the truth about Warriors and Dervishes. Feel free to forget everything you have read in this thread up until this point because what I am about to say is the only thing that matters.
_______________________________________________
What is elitism??? I don't get it.
_______________________________________________

Dervishes have better overall DPS than a warrior when given the right build. They have the ability to spam deep wound on their enemies which is one of the best things that you can do in this game. The four pips of regen allow for more attack skill spamming as well as enchantment buffing. (I wouldn't leave home without conjure on my derve most of the time... the skill simply fits with the class.) The main flaw in the dervish class is low versatility. This is what the OP said was wrong with the warrior and I disagree 100% with that, but I will discuss the warrior later. The reason why I say dervishes have low versatility is because in order to obtain versatility on a dervish, you must sacrifice its damage capabilities, unlike a warrior which can carry 2 knock downs (or 1 KD and a self heal), an IAS, and a speed buff all at the same time without sacrificing much of it's damage capabilities. A dervish has relatively zero KD capabilities (which is HUGE). The way I look at dervishes is this: Dervishes are a like a tow sided coin. You are either a massive damage dealer and you rely on others to keep you alive, remove unwanted hexes and conditions, or keep you from being shut down in other ways, or you can be a tank dervish with minimal damage capabilities and you can sit there all day absorbing damage like a sponge, requiring no outside healing at all but you are relatively useless.

I understand ^^ this segment ^^ can be a bit hard to grasp seeing as it isn't very organized so i will try to give a bit of a recap...

Dervish
Pros: High damage, AoE capabilities, *Deep Wound Spread*
Cons: Very low versatility (forces you to choose one style of play or the other to be effective), no KD, a limited enchantment based IAS.(good because of it's long duration -- bad because it can be removed and interrupted/takes time to cast). Low Armor (base 70)

*I put a star next to "deep wound spread" because it is really what makes the class so great.

Warrior
Pros: High damage as well (lower than the dervish), easy use IAS skills with a variety of options, *Very versatile*, high armor so no defensive skills are necessary (base 80+20 vs physical + shield).

*I put a star next to "Very Versatile" because it is really what makes the class so great.

I personally prefer Dervishes over Warriors in PvE simply because of the damage, the AoE, and especially the ability to apply a covered deep wound to as many foes as possible. The versatility that comes with the Warrior profession isn't as necessary in PvE as it is in PvP because, for the most part, you will be with an 8 man group and never have to rely on yourself to maintain health, remove unwanted conditions/hexes, and all the other stuff involved with being a versatile player. The only thing you need to worry about is pumping out BIG DAMAGE.

[wounding strike][chilling victory][mystic sweep]["I am unstoppable!"][heart of fury][conjure frost][faithful intervention][sunspear rebirth signet]

~Brian

shoyon456 · Jul 16, 2008, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

thats still showing that warriors>dervs in the skillpool and general diversity.

And i was not disputing that. The 2 campaigns that dervs do not have skills for and the 3 weapon types linked to wars make them more versatile. However, in the limited dervish skill pool, the skills are more potent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

throw in the fact that we farm better, offer infinite team-based utility, and on top of it all, dish out the most damage in pvp (and a lot of the time pve, not excluding AoE), and you have the exact reason why warrior is still one of the most important classes in the game next to monk.

1. Farming? Honestly if you want to farm don't pick up either, the perma sin is still #1. Farming is a very moot point irrelevant to the OP from what I understand.

2. Team utility is linked to wars, no argument their, although "infinite" isn't the right word, as paras were made for infinite team based utility.

3. Derv's generally out dps a warrior in PvP. PvE, as mentioned, has monsters of very high levels, which makes dps on a scythe hard to come by without using Avatar of Lyssa. In PvP what makes a warrior potent is the use of a well-timed knockdown, which is what the derv makes up for by spammable high dps attacks and constant Deep Wound.

4. Warriors are not neccessary tbh. Death to the Holy Trinity.

cellardweller · Jul 16, 2008, 01:41 AM // 01:41

I'm pretty sure I'm dumber for having read this thread.

Maria The Princess · Jul 16, 2008, 01:48 AM // 01:48

dervish ftw!

much more versatility then a warrior, and with enouth mysticism you should have energy problems with a prot monkin the group, which every group shoudl have anyways.

Magikarp · Jul 16, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

And i was not disputing that. The 2 campaigns that dervs do not have skills for and the 3 weapon types linked to wars make them more versatile. However, in the limited dervish skill pool, the skills are more potent.

1. Farming? Honestly if you want to farm don't pick up either, the perma sin is still #1. Farming is a very moot point irrelevant to the OP from what I understand.

2. Team utility is linked to wars, no argument their, although "infinite" isn't the right word, as paras were made for infinite team based utility.

3. Derv's generally out dps a warrior in PvP. PvE, as mentioned, has monsters of very high levels, which makes dps on a scythe hard to come by without using Avatar of Lyssa. In PvP what makes a warrior potent is the use of a well-timed knockdown, which is what the derv makes up for by spammable high dps attacks and constant Deep Wound.

4. Warriors are not neccessary tbh. Death to the Holy Trinity.

skills more potent?? are you serious? dervs have about 15 good moves, and about 10 more ok ones, as opposed to the 60-70 good warrior skills, and 2 of those being the top best skills in the game (bulls and frenzy).

as for your post..

1: fair enough, but even while i have a warrior, sin, and derv, i still only farmed on my warrior back in the day, because i dont farm anymore, so you're correct here.

2: if we're talking wars and dervs, leave paras out, because we all know what they're for. my statement pinpointed the fact that warriors were more team friendly.

3: you're basically saying that the entire point to dervs is the DW spread, but thats with WS, so you cant have both Lyssa and WS, so pick one, leaving your DPS about that of a hammer warrior with conjure.. not that big of a deal seeing as KD>all utility in the entire game.

4: Holy shmoly, i play warriors because i love their simplistic, yet effective play-style. they're my relax button.

Lady Raenef · Jul 16, 2008, 03:30 AM // 03:30

I love how people argue that warrior sare simple minded to play. While anyone can run in and die, it's a much more broad scale to know when to apply effects, switch targets, and survive. Groups always have healers, personally a self-healing isn't the best idea on a warrior.

Dervishes mainly consisted of this: avatar, mystic regeneration, vital boon.

For PvE, I'd say probably Dervish over warrior, just because it's easier. Not many things remove enchantments. For PvP, warriors are definitely accepted far beyond a dervish. Not to mention, I deleted my dervish because it bored me to death. Even bought the damn thing primeval. I love melee classes, but dervish just blows. All my opinions of course. =]

As for the argument of warriors lacking good skills, you have no idea what you're talking about.

If you really want to use a scythe, go R/D. Those pack damage to me, for some reason or another. I fear them more than an actual dervish.

Magikarp · Jul 16, 2008, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

I love how people argue that warrior sare simple minded to play. While anyone can run in and die, it's a much more broad scale to know when to apply effects, switch targets, and survive. Groups always have healers, personally a self-healing isn't the best idea on a warrior.

Dervishes mainly consisted of this: avatar, mystic regeneration, vital boon.

For PvE, I'd say probably Dervish over warrior, just because it's easier. Not many things remove enchantments. For PvP, warriors are definitely accepted far beyond a dervish. Not to mention, I deleted my dervish because it bored me to death. Even bought the damn thing primeval. I love melee classes, but dervish just blows. All my opinions of course. =]

As for the argument of warriors lacking good skills, you have no idea what you're talking about.

If you really want to use a scythe, go R/D. Those pack damage to me, for some reason or another. I fear them more than an actual dervish.

you officially win the thread, and my heart.

Cherng Butter · Jul 16, 2008, 05:06 AM // 05:06

[skill]Warrior's Endurance[/skill][skill]Eremite's Attack[/skill][skill]Mystic Sweep[/skill][skill]Protector's Strike[/skill]

Have fun.

I feel like the high armor and utility of the warrior is unsurpassed (+100 armor and Dragon Slash spamming? Earthshaker?), but I suppose Dervishes are better for damage tools in PvE...honestly I just realized that I've only ever grouped with a Dervish once in my guild wars career in PvE...

Cherng Butter · Jul 16, 2008, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

My opinion:
Warriors are very boring to play, with simple hack and slash mechanics in PvE that make the game get boring quite easily. True, they do have 10 more AL, and an innate +20 AL to all physical damage, but the difference between a warrior's base 80 AL and a derv's base 70 is a 0.134 damage multiplier according to wiki. I won't compare the warrior's innate +20 to physical, because a derv has that extra +25 health.

Forgot about the shield? 96 AL vs. 70 is significant.

Lady Raenef · Jul 16, 2008, 05:25 AM // 05:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoyon456

My opinion:

Warriors are very boring to play, with simple hack and slash mechanics in PvE that make the game get boring quite easily. True, they do have 10 more AL, and an innate +20 AL to all physical damage, but the difference between a warrior's base 80 AL and a derv's base 70 is a 0.134 damage multiplier according to wiki. I won't compare the warrior's innate +20 to physical, because a derv has that extra +25 health.

Over the course of how fast a warrior loses 25 hp over a dervish without a helping enchantment, there's no competition. Warrior can take more.

As for warriors being boring? Excuse me, I believe that's all in the opinion of the player. As I've stated before, this is one of the, if not, THEE most boring class in the game. I never particularly cared for caster (except monk) and have made a warrior, assassin, and dervish. The power of the warrior overall tops the other two melee classes. With the sheer output of faster damage, and more IAS abilities in-hand, this makes for a truly balanced. I ended up deleting my dervish, not for extra character slots either. I currently have 3/9 filled. Monk, warrior, assassin. =]

Somehow, a guy in a dress doesn't suit me as a melee character. Nor do I like being the only melee class being really affected by Backfire. So, when you buy any game, what do you get? Warriors. They're core. Original six core classes, ftw.

shoyon456 · Jul 16, 2008, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

As for warriors being boring? Excuse me, I believe that's all in the opinion of the player.

Which is why i clearly stated "My opinion:". There's no doubt a warrior can take more abuse, but a dervish's native weapon has the highest max dmg in game (along with the lowest min). And does not need to spend time building adrenaline for attacks, since all scythe attacks are energy based. The energy pool needed is sufficiently supplemented by mysticism's inherent effect.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

Somehow, a guy in a dress doesn't suit me as a melee character. Nor do I like being the only melee class being really affected by Backfire. So, when you buy any game, what do you get? Warriors. They're core. Original six core classes, ftw.

Typical and ignorant. The "zomg its a man in a dress" argument isn't an argument, its an excuse for not being comfortable with your sexual preference imo. In addition, your narrow-mindedness is appauling. If anet hadn't introduced new classes, much fewer people would be playing today, and we'd have even less diversity than there is now (and anet would be worse off).

Derv's own in the general dps department, whereas warriors can place a KD in a critical position or offer an adren spike.

birdfoot · Jul 16, 2008, 06:45 AM // 06:45

@ OP:

Through Strength attribute, warriors gain sole access to a number of skills that increases health/armor and are unstrippable (e.g. Signet of Stamina, Endure/Defy Pain, Dolyak Signet); on top of having naturally high armor. Dervishes, on the other hand, depend too heavily on enchantments; if there are no enchantment strippers, a dervish can probably hold out better than a warrior. I think in PvE, a Warrior has better overall survivability than a Dervish but this will depend on how heavy enchantment stripping is in a given area and how a battle takes place to begin with (since almost nobody bothers to aggro mobs and tank nowadays).

Note: damage vs survivability is not taken into consideration here.

For damage consideration, I think they are generally about the same except for certain scenarios. Dervishes have natural effectiveness vs undead monsters through Mysticism which only they have proficiency in. Avatar of Lyssa, in addition, improves the damage-dealing ability of Dervishes. More importantly, Dervishes will have better options to deal AoE compared to Warriors when holding aggro.

Note: damage vs survivability is not taken into consideration here.

Playstyle-wise, while it might look like the main difference boiling down to playing a fully melee toon or a 'paladin-like' one which can cast spells and melee both effectively; it's alittle hard to comment since it's too different for all professions. I'll just bring up a few things that I can think of at the moment.

Looking at just the primary profession skills alone, warriors will be able to get slightly better proficiency in a wider array of weapon choices compared to dervishes since the latter only have Scythe Mastery. For warriors, they also have a couple of skills related to knockdown in Strength which are pretty good for chasing down kiting targets in HM PvE.

Both primary professions are quite proficient at applying conditions and are almost just as incompetent at condition removal (except that Dervishes have Avatar of Melandru to brag about

).

Dervishes have better self-sustainability compared to warriors imo, due to better energy regeneration/management and healing options.

Lastly, just wanted to say that I'm comparing the primary professions alone as I find it way too complicated to factor in secondary profession options. I play mostly as a warrior as most of the titles are already on that toon.

Sirius-NZ · Jul 16, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

Dervishes mainly consisted of this: avatar, mystic regeneration, vital boon.

No good build uses mystic regen or vital boon. It's no wonder you didn't see them put out much DPS; they were the "omg these enchants let me ubertank" players.

It is much easier to make a crap Dervish than a crap Warrior though. (The W/Mo guys have special talent.)

ryanryanryan0310 · Jul 16, 2008, 09:44 AM // 09:44

Warrior........cause it's just fun.

Amnel Ithtirsol · Jul 16, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Another Dervish vote here:

Pros:
You inflict huge amounts of damage while tanking ahead of your chosen H/H group. This is especially easy with the use of AoL and AoD, depending on the area. D/Mo with AoL, prot Spirit and Mystic Regen (8 in Earth) is basically the core of what you'll need to vanquish most areas. (Bring Splinter Weapon on one of your heroes, 14+ in Scythe mastery, spam your cheap scythe attacks and see the mobs fall...) With Mystic Regen used correctly, your self healing is sufficient in such a way that it removes some of the pressure off your monks - so they can focus heal other party members. You have to play smart though, plan your attacks and manage your energy. Enchantment removal can be a problem but with the +2 energy regen and high Mysticism you should be able to re-apply quickly.

D/any is also a good option for hardcore tanking, again with the additional armor of AoB, Mystic Regen + any appropriate skills form your chosen secondary, depending on the situation/area. As tank you are still not on the level of a warrior, but close enough to be effective in most situations.

Dervishes are more challenging to play correctly but it can also be more rewarding experience.

Cons:
Getting into PuGs. Your W primary will rarely find it difficult to get into groups for elite areas. Especially when also running Ursan Blessing. D primary might stand around a little longer before being invited...
(its getting better though. People may be starting to realise that the huge AoE damage dealing capabilities, self heal and better energy management of Dervishes negates the 10 (+ 20)Al armor deficit the class has compared to W. )

Energy management could be problematic for players new to the game.

W have more places to farm, if that's your thing. (If it is though you'll probably already have a monk...)

All classes have their strong and weak points. It's difficult to compare classes directly as a lot has to do with your play style.
For me, for PvE - Dervish FTW

RotteN · Jul 16, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiishii Momo

Warrior

Con's: Low versatility/adaptability, build diversity

wait, WHAT ?

So you're realy claiming a class with 3 possible weapons, 140 skills of which 36 elite skills is less versatile and has less build diversity than a class with "only" 1 weapon and "only" 85 skills ( "only" 15 elites).

Seriously, what have you been smoking ?
Just because everyone and their mother on these forums worships the so called "godmode" build doesn't mean it's the only decent warrior build.

I'll pick playing warrior over dervish any day.