Curse

Abedeus · Jul 20, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

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in the future to me.

Yep... I hope that not day after Duke Nukem Forever release.

Tyla · Jul 20, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

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Originally Posted by Stockholm

There won't be an "Ursan nerf", but keep dreaming if you will

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Originally Posted by Something I've said earlier

I thought Shadow Form wasn't going to be nerfed. I was wrong by a longshot.

Stockholm, if they nerf Shadow Form, it's obvious they are attempting to fix PvE.

JDRyder · Jul 20, 2008, 04:25 PM // 16:25

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Originally Posted by Stockholm

There won't be an "Ursan nerf", but keep dreaming if you will

Didnt Leonardo De Vinci say something like "nerf ursan.... nerf ursan..." as he lay dying in his bed, back in 1519?

Seventh_Samurai · Jul 20, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

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Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

That is the definition of active guild.

If a PvP guild can find 8 players consistently for GvG then a PvE guild can find a full team. Smaller guilds even more so because they tend to have a core team set that play everything together anyway (meaning they are all at the same point in the game).

You're comparing apples to oranges. There are only 4 different areas for PvP teaming (HA, TA, GvG, and AB). There are many, many, many more dungeons, quests, elite missions, and normal missions--and don't forget that each can be done in either NM or HM for different purposes. Even in active PvE guilds I rarely if ever filled a team with solely guild/alliance mates. Smaller PvE guilds make it almost impossible, as everyone seems to be at a *different* point in the game. In the PvP guilds I've been in, it's always easy to find people for almost anything [pvp related].

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Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

and to add. I personally faund arachni's and Rragars to be some of the easiest dungeons in HM using h/h.

Catacombs, frostmaws etc are harder with AI simply because of how they react to the types of foes there.

Really? These dungeons are SO easy to run, with the exception of one or two things in each (in kathandrax, the first boss on final floor and the worms are all a 600/smite needs help with; in frostmaw, he/she only needs help with the soulrending shriek mobs). Your teams were likely built differently for Arachni's and Rragars if you had a easy time with them.

isamu kurosawa · Jul 20, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

You're comparing apples to oranges. There are only 4 different areas for PvP teaming (HA, TA, GvG, and AB). There are many, many, many more dungeons, quests, elite missions, and normal missions--and don't forget that each can be done in either NM or HM for different purposes. Even in active PvE guilds I rarely if ever filled a team with solely guild/alliance mates. Smaller PvE guilds make it almost impossible, as everyone seems to be at a *different* point in the game. In the PvP guilds I've been in, it's always easy to find people for almost anything [pvp related].

Well in my experience a small active guild tends to play pretty much everything together, meaning they stay at the same point while large active guilds tend to have plenty of people who are up for anything.

Guilds are a great place for teams, but you should realy be in a guild that focuses on what you prefer to do, be that a form ov PvP, title hunting, farming, missions or elite areas.

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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

Really? These dungeons are SO easy to run, with the exception of one or two things in each (in kathandrax, the first boss on final floor and the worms are all a 600/smite needs help with; in frostmaw, he/she only needs help with the soulrending shriek mobs). Your teams were likely built differently for Arachni's and Rragars if you had a easy time with them.

As i stated the problems with those dungeons are more to do with how hero/hench AI reacts to certain Skills, mainly AoE types rather than difficulty.
In arachni's h/h tend to use correct support skills etc but in catacombs they do not (earth hench uses ward against melee whenyou take ele damage).

Hench also tend to run around inside AoE rather than run out of it, especially if snared, stood in a dungeon trap, or worse of all stood in a spirit rift (they do not move at all).

Stockholm · Jul 20, 2008, 09:05 PM // 21:05

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Stockholm, if they Nerf Shadow Form, it's obvious they are attempting to fix PvE.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/ArenaNet

eveloper_updates#.5BDev_Update.5D_Shadow _Form_Balance_Changes_-_2_July_2008

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The primary goal of this update is to address the high efficiency of [COLOR=#0000ff]Shadow Form[/COLOR] farming builds. It had long been possible to maintain Shadow Form permanently, but when the duration of this skill was increased, many new and more powerful build options became viable. We are not opposed to players using Shadow Form for farming, but it is not good for the game economy for high-end farming activities to become too easy or too efficient

To easy solo farming was the target for the SF Nerf, not PvE game play.

But you interpret what you read your way and I my way.

Tyla · Jul 21, 2008, 02:02 AM // 02:02

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Originally Posted by Stockholm

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/ArenaNet

eveloper_updates#.5BDev_Update.5D_Shadow _Form_Balance_Changes_-_2_July_2008

To easy solo farming was the target for the SF Nerf, not PvE game play.

But you interpret what you read your way and I my way.

1: Farming has always been easy. What was different?

2: Farming is an aspect of PvE gameplay.

3: The economy was dead ages ago.

4: Farming, being an aspect of PvE in order to make quick money you need to do this, or be lucky on drop rates. If they are going to do this for the economy, or what was left of it, they are also doing this for PvE itself.

Stockholm · Jul 21, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

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Originally Posted by Tyla

1: Farming has always been easy. What was different?

2: Farming is an aspect of PvE gameplay.

3: The economy was dead ages ago.

4: Farming, being an aspect of PvE in order to make quick money you need to do this, or be lucky on drop rates. If they are going to do this for the economy, or what was left of it, they are also doing this for PvE itself.

1: Ask A-net, they did the nerf not me

2: farming is grind, not gameplay

3: What economy?

4: They did this to please the cry baby's with e-peens, had nothing to do with the gameplay at all.

Tyla · Jul 21, 2008, 07:23 AM // 07:23

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Originally Posted by Stockholm

1: Ask A-net, they did the nerf not me

Ask Anet what exactly? How easy farming was supposed to be?

How easy farming is, that is up to the players.

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2: farming is grind, not gameplay

Grind is still gameplay. To grind you must play.

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3: What economy?

Exactly.

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4: They did this to please the cry baby's with e-peens, had nothing to do with the gameplay at all.

So all you can do is call people cry babies and tell them that they have an overextended e-peen?

This brinds me back to my second answer. Either way I see no arguments for why godmode should exist in any game. Given that, they are obviously deciding to make a shift towards PvE balance and try and fix it. If this was to "pacify the cry-babies", then why haven't they done this with Ursan yet?

Amnel Ithtirsol · Jul 21, 2008, 07:32 AM // 07:32

No Ursan is definately not the uber-godmode most think it is. After the grind to get to R10 I was completely opposed to the "immenent nerf" to UB, but after spending a great amount of time (and gold, in the form of wasted consets) in DoA I've come to realise that it opens the playing field for a lot of players who should not be allowed close to the game, never mind an elite area like DoA.

Last night I attempted a NM full run again. After City a monk bailed, closely followed by two of the ursans halveway through Veil. So that left us with:

2 monks,
1 x HB (cookie cutter build)
1 x HB / Archane Mimicry
3 ursans.
1 x P/W Ursan/Imbagon
1 x W/Me
1 x D/Me

We managed to complete the run, albeit with a bit of trial and error at times, where the monk and imbagon had to change strategy - monk use mimic to increase DPS, Para turns Imbagon where things got really tough.

The point I'm trying to make is, 5 players can complete a DoA run and, although it was based on the normal Ursan + monks setup. It shows that different classes can work together, heck, it shows that if you use your brain you can take almost any team through DoA in NM. Btw, we also did this without cons, as the Ursans who left were the last two on the list...

I'm 100% sure now that we could have done it much quicker without Ursan if all went with halve decent builds.

Looking forward to the nerf now...

Stockholm · Jul 21, 2008, 07:34 AM // 07:34

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Ask Anet what exactly? How easy farming was supposed to be?

How easy farming is, that is up to the players.

Grind is still gameplay. To grind you must play.

Exactly.

So all you can do is call people cry babies and tell them that they have an overextended e-peen?

This brings me back to my second answer. Either way I see no arguments for why god mode should exist in any game. Given that, they are obviously deciding to make a shift towards PvE balance and try and fix it. If this was to "pacify the cry-babies", then why haven't they done this with Ursan yet?

Because Ursan is part of the Core that GWEN is built around, and people like it and use it for more than solo farming, it has actually brought Pugging back in to the game, there is many aspects to consider and perhaps their data shows that Ursan is good for the average player. Who knows?
Plus they never said that they would Nerf it, only that they where looking at how it affected the game. As I said people interpret what they read differently

upier · Jul 21, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Grind is still gameplay. To grind you must play.

Despite farming being the most degenerate form of PvE - I actually don't see why that would matter.
I don't see how anyone can suggest that SF was nerfed when one can still keep it up 24/7.

There is balance - and then there are idiotic ideas.
So I am REALLY dying to see how Ursan turns out.
It being a pretty huge factor for actually buying GWEN mixed with the fact that it's a PvE ONLY elite skill that was supposed to take care of the class discrimination in PvE - I am guessing that after it gets trashed it will still be the best thing to use.

Tyla · Jul 21, 2008, 07:40 AM // 07:40

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Originally Posted by Stockholm

Because Ursan is part of the Core that EONT is built around, and people like it and use it for more than solo farming, it has actually brought Pugging back in to the game, there is many aspects to consider and perhaps their data shows that Ursan is good for the average player. Who knows?

Good for participation. Bad for player skill.

It breaks three promises made by Arena Net.

It doesn't reward clever or skillful use. Skill > Time didn't only apply to PvP.

It is powered on grind. Grind for benefits.

It gives you a pre-made bar. Defeats the concept of skill bars.

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Plus they never said that they would Nerf it, only that they where looking at how it affected the game. As I said people interpret what they read differently

Didn't they say the same thing about Shadow Form or am I mistaken?

Oh, and if they are investigating the problem, they probably would see a problem. Infact, just looking at the arguments, for and against shows.

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Originally Posted by Upier

Despite farming being the most degenerate form of PvE - I actually don't see why that would matter.
I don't see how anyone can suggest that SF was nerfed when one can still keep it up 24/7.

True that, although godmode should never exist in any game.

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There is balance - and then there are idiotic ideas.
So I am REALLY dying to see how Ursan turns out.
It being a pretty huge factor for actually buying GWEN mixed with the fact that it's a PvE ONLY elite skill that was supposed to take care of the class discrimination in PvE - I am guessing that after it gets trashed it will still be the best thing to use.

Well, for the same reason as Bryant, I would be less spiteful towards Ursan and all other PvE skills if they weren't linked to grinding for benefits. It would go against two things promised, but at least it isn't dependant on a shoddy grind title.

Stockholm · Jul 21, 2008, 07:53 AM // 07:53

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Oh, and if they are investigating the problem, they probably would see a problem. Infact, just looking at the arguments, for and against shows.

Now your making the asumption that they look at the forums and the QQ threads about Ursan, if they look at the stats from the servers it proberbly shows a very popular skill being used by a majority of players, in 8 man pugs.
A small part of the players are QQ'ing about it on forums while a big part of the players are in game actually using the skill.

As I said before keep dreaming about a nerf, it will not happen

Tyla · Jul 21, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

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Originally Posted by Stockholm

Now your making the asumption that they look at the forums and the QQ threads about Ursan, if they look at the stats from the servers it proberbly shows a very popular skill being used by a majority of players, in 8 man pugs.

I understand they don't even bother with the forums. Oh, by the way...

Popularity doesn't mean something is balanced, or shouldn't be changed.

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A small part of the players are QQ'ing about it on forums while a big part of the players are in game actually using the skill.

Your point being?

I don't like Imbagons. I abuse them. I understand why they should be nerfed. Grind based and basically godmode.

I don't like Shadow Form either. I still abuse godmode for my own personal gain. I understand why it should be nerfed aswell.

I don't like alot of things in this game, yet I abuse them. Want to know why? If I didn't, I would be gimping myself, and I might aswell take advantage of these things beforehand if I can still use it while preserving the main things that keep this game decent.

isildorbiafra · Jul 21, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Of topic but if i remember correctly a-net mentioned that usan would be nerfed from a tactical perspective. Imo they will leave ursan as is; but will prohibit multi player ursan teams. I.e. a-net will prohibit more than one party member running ursan blessing at any given time! That way quick and easy vanquishing/ mission runs through UW, FoW and DoA will be a thing of the past; but single players will still be able to use it while hero/ henching to their hearts content.

Back on topic to me ub used in combination with the right skills is just another build; with the only exception that it is imba especially in multi ursan partys.

Abedeus · Jul 21, 2008, 09:51 AM // 09:51

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As I said before keep dreaming about a nerf, it will not happen

They. Already. Announced. Incoming. Nerf.

Taurucis · Jul 21, 2008, 02:17 PM // 14:17

We can include all classes in elite PvE areas, but most of the time people won't.

Kind of like how my guild leader didn't want me to play my Warrior in Urgoz, even though I could have used Ursan or D-slash+SY. No, he wanted me on my ranger as a splinter/barrage... which is why I'm not going back to Urgoz again. My guild seems to have problems figuring out how powerful a Warrior is so I've kind of stopped going places with them... And you know that when your guild (made up mostly of friends) will only accept cookie cutter builds, you're screwed.

The problem is the cookie cutter mentality that plagues most of Guild Wars. They see a build, they like the build, and they think that build is the only build. It's a good way to kill off a game pretty fast.

Seventh_Samurai · Jul 21, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

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Originally Posted by Taurucis

We can include all classes in elite PvE areas, but most of the time people won't.

Very true. Sometimes, it's not about what class, but how many of each class too. Ursan solved that to some extent that any class could use it, wit the caveat that each class is still a little different as far as AL and stances go.

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Originally Posted by Taurucis

Kind of like how my guild leader didn't want me to play my Warrior in Urgoz, even though I could have used Ursan or D-slash+SY. No, he wanted me on my ranger as a splinter/barrage... which is why I'm not going back to Urgoz again. My guild seems to have problems figuring out how powerful a Warrior is so I've kind of stopped going places with them... And you know that when your guild (made up mostly of friends) will only accept cookie cutter builds, you're screwed.

You're talking about an elite area. I'm not saying "warriors are bad" by any means, but what works well in an area, especially an elite area, is what people will take. If you're taking up a spot with a class that's less useful in that area, then I suppose he has every right to refuse and ask you to take a different class or someone else.

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Originally Posted by Taurucis

The problem is the cookie cutter mentality that plagues most of Guild Wars. They see a build, they like the build, and they think that build is the only build. It's a good way to kill off a game pretty fast.

What works well, works well. The fact that HM elite areas are, well, "hard" forces you to be very narrow in your build construction, because let's face it, there are a lot more ways to make crap builds than there are to make good builds. Not to mention some skills being completely useless (I won't name any here to avoid any flame wars). While you can branch out, HM (or even NM in some cases) elite areas are not really the place to do so. That's reserved for standard NM missions and quests.

Taurucis · Jul 21, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

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Originally Posted by Seventh_Samurai

You're talking about an elite area. I'm not saying "warriors are bad" by any means, but what works well in an area, especially an elite area, is what people will take. If you're taking up a spot with a class that's less useful in that area, then I suppose he has every right to refuse and ask you to take a different class or someone else.

I seem to recall a bunch of people telling me that a D-Slash/SY warrior works really well in Urgoz, perhaps even better than one of the nukers or rangers...

What I found scandalous was that he wasn't even willing to try something new. And when my guild leader won't try something new then I pretty much can't expect anyone else to try something new.